Lies

[indigoroom]

I can't speak for the ENFj but the INFp is a terrible terrible liar! We wear our hearts on our sleeves, man!

I disagree. It's just that some INFps know how they exactly come off, they can build whatever image they want of themselfs and then use it for their purposes and you can never tell because they sound sincere, everyone loves and and everyone is positive towards them. Even if you detect them you can rarely do something about it because everyone is their friend I believe that INFps are the best liars, even long-range liars. Just think about all the INFp women that we know which are into uum.. made up marriages It's not so bad and I think INFps rarely really lie in the classical sense of the word but if shit hit the flames they are good at it. I think their motivation steams from a low self-esteem and inability to stand up for themselfs. then they slowly build layers of lies and made up images because they feel guilty for lying or being the persons they are and they lie again to cover the previous lie and so on until someday everything collapses. the building process is actually quite fascinating because it's mainly because they MISS to tell some facts and other similar tricky ways that can't be labeled as unethical. i know some really sad stories and I know people with other types which are into similar stuff but they can't beat INFps in terms of creativity. the thing is that INFps damage mainly themselfs by doing all that stuff. it's not really needed it's all in their heads and they are so scared of being judged that they are going to the extremes. their problems that cause that kind of behaviour usually can be solved just by opening up and sharing them with friends/families which are willing to help. they are NOT that big and dramatic as INFps tend to think.

however I am a saint and I feel bad when i'm lying.

[Creepy-]

I can't speak for the ENFj but the INFp is a terrible terrible liar! We wear our hearts on our sleeves, man!

I disagree. It's just that some INFps know how they exactly come off, they can build whatever image they want of themselfs and then use it for their purposes and you can never tell because they sound sincere, everyone loves and and everyone is positive towards them. Even if you detect them you can rarely do something about it because everyone is their friend I believe that INFps are the best liars, even long-range liars. Just think about all the INFp women that we know which are into uum.. made up marriages however I am a saint and I feel bad when i'm lying.

This is true, I guess..... Hooray for having friends!

[FDG]

I can't speak for the ENFj but the INFp is a terrible terrible liar! We wear our hearts on our sleeves, man!

I disagree. It's just that some INFps know how they exactly come off, they can build whatever image they want of themselfs and then use it for their purposes and you can never tell because they sound sincere, everyone loves and and everyone is positive towards them. Even if you detect them you can rarely do something about it because everyone is their friend I believe that INFps are the best liars, even long-range liars. Just think about all the INFp women that we know which are into uum.. made up marriages however I am a saint and I feel bad when i'm lying.

You're just emo people!

[nobrainer]

The women are the biggest liars of them all. How many of you ladies use make up? That's it as soon as you put it on you lie.

[FDG]

The women are the biggest liars of them all. How many of you ladies use make up? That's it as soon as you put it on you lie.

Yeah, women are all WHORES!!!111ONEONESHIFT+ONE.


Now go to bed.

[ScanDave]

My ex girlfriend (INFp) would have this self-torturing kind of way of lying to herself because she thought doing so would make her happier, or maintain or reach a certain level happiness. When in fact said happiness was not really there, or declining.

She would pile these lies up, and things would become kind of a fantasy world. Yet, it would be frustrating because if you are so happy why do talk about offing yourself, and other subjects about death? I do not fault her for it, but why put yourself through that? I mean she would go as far as to write poetry while in different moods, yet there would be hidden meanings in the poetry that would describe what was really going on. There were a few things I read of hers, before we got together, about her feelings for me. I brought it up to her, and she denied it. It was not until later when we were together that she revealed the stuff she wrote was in fact about me.

I dunno. Why lie to convince yourself you are something, when in the end you are going to come to the conclusion you are really something else that people who know you best told you are in the first place? Al the while doing so causes a lot of pain for yourself.

[nobrainer]

On second thought, men often are liars as well, especially when asked about the sizes of their penises

[godslave]

I have three main ways of "lying" :

a) I always say Alhamdulillah when a relative or familly member asks me "how are you ?"

b) I say "I don't know" a lot even when in fact I know but I don't want to hurt someone's feeling or because I don't want to interact with people for too long when the information asked requires a somewhat complex answer that would 1) take some time and 2) betrays some aspect of my personality that I don't want strangers or people I'm not close with to know about. I want to be left alone and prefer to not be solicited too much which is what people tend to do with me. I have some difficulties to say "no" when I'm nicely asked for a request even if I've worked on that aspect.

c) When someone does something for me (that I most certainly didn't ask for) with good intentions or gives me a gift that I didn't like, I act as if I like it and say stuff like "Thank you, It's nice of you" because people get offended if you bluntly say that you don't like it, that's rude imho.

c') I can say "no" with a sign of my head to beggars even if I have money when I see or suspect that the beggar is a "pro".

That said, I've been in situations (secret romances) where I had to be creative and take some interpretative liberties with the truth.

Another special case is the dilemma. I found myself in the past in uncomfortable positions where friends and relatives lied or hide the truth and wanted me to cover it up and not saying anything. That really pisses me off ! I had to track the lie over time and watch what I'm saying for the rest of my life. But again even in those cases I try to be creative to not say direct and articulated lies.

Other than that, I never ever directly lie when I speak about myself or my biography. I can hide aspects of it but if I share then what is shared is true. Also, I like to keep my facts checked and not sharing false information.

[Bethanyclaire]

Meh I wish I didn’t have to wear makeup, I miss my normal face sometimes, but I did not take good enough of my skin as a young person. It’s not that much of a lie coz people look nice in diff ways with or without

[Sol]

F types may do more. As part of wish to influence on emotions.

[Distance]

It depends on how subjective you are, if you recognize false information as corrupt information and it leads to false consequences as the domino falls it consumes others, then you would strive for truth.

Subjective could spell immaturity, weak character traits, not thinking abstractly.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

In the Big Five, lying is probably mostly related to low agreeableness and low conscientiousness. In the HEXACO, low honesty–humility represents this extremely well.

If Socionics could ever be described via a standardized instrument based on empirical data, I'd expect XXTP types to be most associated with lying.

[adage]

I think it was @Adam Strange who was saying F lie about(or with?) emotion and T lie about logic; he said he lies about "facts" talking about himself.

The way I think of lying is more to keep people away, mostly emotionally explosive people.
Tho, if I figure the best way to deal with someone is to lie, I cannot respect them; not to confuse with talking in terms someone can understands because I care more about meaning than words; and not to confuse with being cruel, the truth can be said without being just a bunch of accusations and insults; also, the truth isn't harrasment, meaning following someone around repeating the same thing to them until they give in.
And the truth is sometimes impossible to explain to some people so in these situation idk what to do beside a vague, non-commital answers like "something like that" and just move one. Saying they don't get it doesn't work, only makes them aggressive so far.

I've met people who claim they value honesty, but they really meant that people ought to compliment them endlessly and honestly, they could rarely deal with non-positive comments... unless it was about someone they hated.

There are times where insecure people will seek my approval because my standards are high; in this case both lying and the truth gives a bad end, but the lie has actually a less negative social impact; it makes people think I'm encouraging the person to keep getting better. Guess the better option would be to point out to their own appreciation of what they did in order to help them maybe reach interior evalution and cease to seek exterior approval, could be good for them, and me too, but only if it works the first or second time.
If this option work, it might also improve the quality of what they do because they won't stress so much about approval.

At times, when I find people being intrusive or if I suspect ulterior motive, I tend to say "no" and physically move back/away. If the person had just asked a yes/no question, it might seem like a lie, but it's really a weird automatic reaction I have.
Another automatic reaction I have is when people make a proposal and for some stupid reason I say "...okay..." at the end of it, more so when they are excitedly expecting a positive answer. Some go into an exuberant state from "approval" but what this "okay" means is "I got the information", not "yes, that's a good plan", this outburst tend to snap me out of reflexion mode so I explain them what I meant and that I'll think of it, which bursts their bubble big time and it tends to deflate them so nothing happens at all.
I tend to explain this to people I get closer to before it happens because it's frustrating. I tried changing it but it hasn't worked so far. The best someone can do on this point for me is add "tell me what you think later" and move on, either physically or conversationally.

Sometimes, I don't want to reveal things because I have the right to keep things to myself so I say stupid things saying I'm taking a trip to the moon and back when asked about plans. The kind of outlandish answers no one in their right mind would think is the truth.

[godslave]

I didn't know about Paul Ekman's theory before that show even if I was familiar with non-verbal communication without studying it in depth. I then spend years and years analyzing people's video in slow motion including people I personally know to verify that theory. As always I dived into the theory with an enthusiastic open mind seeing in it a potential universal truth I could rely on when push comes to shove. And as always the more I learned about it the more skeptic I became about its validity as an universal truth. Same with Typology.

[Ruby13357]

Well, in one of my previous jobs there was once when my ILI manager was late to work, and she wanted me to help her lie to the big boss that she arrived on time just in case the big boss asked about it.

It makes me feel uncomfortable to lie for her, but I also didn't want her to lose her job from being late to work, so these are one of the instances I ended up lying.

I tend to avoid lying otherwise, as I find myself feeling guilty each time I tell a lie.

[CosmicCat]

According to Thomism, lying can never ever be justified. However, while some principles of the natural law, such as that adultery is always wrong or that theft is never acceptable, can be intuitively understood, the principle that lying can never ever be justified cannot be discerned by moral intuition (In Socionics language, it is a moral failing that is blind to). In practice, it requires divine revelation to know that lying can never ever be justified.

"It was one of them, their very own prophet, who said, 'Cretans are always liars, vicious brutes, lazy gluttons.' That testimony is true. For this reason rebuke them sharply, so that they may become sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish myths or to commandments of those who reject the truth. To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure. Their very minds and consciences are corrupted. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work." (Titus 1:12-16 NRSVCE)

[godslave]

I'm not a fanatic Kantian ! Lying with all your heart is morally the right thing to do in some circumstances. For instance if I lived in occupied France in 1942 and I hided Jews (including women and children) in my house and then the gestapo came knocking on my door asking me if I hide Jews then I would answer "no" and lie to save them because telling the truth would be equivalent to a death sentence. Of course lying is the right thing to do in that circumstance.

[CosmicCat]

I'm not a fanatic Kantian ! Lying with all your heart is morally the right thing to do in some circumstances. For instance if I lived in occupied France in 1942 and I hided Jews (including women and children) in my house and then the gestapo came knocking on my door asking me if I hide Jews then I would answer "no" and lie to save them because telling the truth would be equivalent to a death sentence. Of course lying is the right thing to do in that circumstance.

That might have been true in 1930s Europe, when there was no mass communication. At that time in human history, the Lord God was testing whether men would value their fellow men by refusing to dehumanize them. But now, in A.D. 2023, we live in the era of instant text messaging, smart phones, and the Internet, when the moral test is whether you will be truthful. So I strongly recommend that you update your value system, so that you may be successful in passing the moral test.

"A false witness will not go unpunished, and a liar will not escape." (Proverbs 19:5 NRSVCE)

[godslave]

That might have been true in 1930s Europe, when there was no mass communication. At that time in human history, the Lord God was testing whether men would value their fellow men by refusing to dehumanize them. But now, in A.D. 2023, we live in the era of instant text messaging, smart phones, and the Internet, where the moral test is whether you will be truthful. So I strongly recommend that you update your value system, so that you may be successful in passing the moral test.

Thank you for the recommendation. I don't know if my "values" are outdated though. I thought they were kinda universal and timeless.

I don't think that mass communication has something to do with lying when the circumstances demand it. I mean, Evil has not be wiped out the surface of earth because of mass communication Internet, smartphones, social medias etc... In fact the situation is worse than it has ever been because Evil proliferated with technology. Evil human beings are part of the human condition. As long as we exist, evil will exist. There will always be situations in which lying is the right thing to do regardless of how developed our communications devices might be. I think we try to do the right thing and it's the intention that matters. Sometimes we can't control our inner impulses to do things our own way regardless of what the law says. In those moments we just listen to our heart while being grateful to have being graced with discernment.

[Renna]

It’s a tool, like any other tools people use throughout history. It’s up to you how useful it is.

It’s a shame that I’m suck at lying. I’m really not good at acting, so cannot use this tool at it’s fullest.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

According to Thomism, lying can never ever be justified. However, while some principles of the natural law, such as that adultery is always wrong or that theft is never acceptable, can be intuitively understood, the principle that lying can never ever be justified cannot be discerned by moral intuition (In Socionics language, it is a moral failing that is blind to). In practice, it requires divine revelation to know that lying can never ever be justified.

"It was one of them, their very own prophet, who said, 'Cretans are always liars, vicious brutes, lazy gluttons.' That testimony is true. For this reason rebuke them sharply, so that they may become sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish myths or to commandments of those who reject the truth. To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure. Their very minds and consciences are corrupted. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work." (Titus 1:12-16 NRSVCE)

If you value telling the truth as a moral, then you won't value lying. You don't need "divine intuition" to have such a value. Many religions also permit lying.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

That might have been true in 1930s Europe, when there was no mass communication. At that time in human history, the Lord God was testing whether men would value their fellow men by refusing to dehumanize them. But now, in A.D. 2023, we live in the era of instant text messaging, smart phones, and the Internet, when the moral test is whether you will be truthful. So I strongly recommend that you update your value system, so that you may be successful in passing the moral test.

"A false witness will not go unpunished, and a liar will not escape." (Proverbs 19:5 NRSVCE)

The Bible has instances of both "God" and Jesus lying.

It also has the story of "God" wiping out most life on Earth, and threatening to torture beings for eternity, which doesn't show much value for life. There are also instances where "God" placed no blood price on children under the age of 1 month.

[CosmicCat]

If you value telling the truth as a moral, then you won't value lying. You don't need "divine intuition" to have such a value. Many religions also permit lying.

St. Thomas Aquinas did not believe in core value theory. Core value theory was invented in the 19th century to justify morality without God. He would not have said that some humans have truth as a core value and can naturally discern that lying is always immoral, and that others do not, and so they cannot discern that lying is immoral but rather have to be instructed to do so. He would have said (and did in fact say) that it is the universal condition of natural man due to original sin not to be able to discern that lying is always wrong, and that it requires grace to reach the level of discernment necessary to say that lying is always wrong. He would also have said that the ability to know that lying is always wrong is not something that can be instilled by correction or instruction (that would be Pelagianism).

Everybody is wired to be a liar. "The Lord looks down from heaven on humankind to see if there are any who are wise, who seek after God. They have all gone astray, they are all alike perverse; there is no one who does good, no, not one." (Psalm 14:2-3 NRSVCE) But some people, due to grace, have entered into the divine life, that allows them to value Truth. But it is the universal condition of man that nobody can naturally value the Truth.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

St. Thomas Aquinas did not believe in core value theory. Core value theory was invented in the 19th century to justify morality without God. He would not have said that some humans have truth as a core value and can naturally discern that lying is always immoral, and that others do not, and so they cannot discern that lying is immoral but rather have to be instructed to do so. He would have said (and did in fact say) that it is the universal condition of natural man due to original sin not to be able to discern that lying is always wrong, and that it requires grace to reach the level of discernment necessary to say that lying is always wrong. He would also have said that the ability to know that lying is always wrong is not something that can be instilled by correction or instruction (that would be Pelagianism).

Everybody is wired to be a liar. "The Lord looks down from heaven on humankind to see if there are any who are wise, who seek after God. They have all gone astray, they are all alike perverse; there is no one who does good, no, not one." (Psalm 14:2-3 NRSVCE) But some people, due to grace, have entered into the divine life, that allows them to value Truth. But it is the universal condition of man that nobody can naturally value the Truth.

Ancient Greeks philosophers that saw that morality could exist independently of "God". I don't see how morality needs to be justified other than being inherently valid in its own right.

Lying is not representing the truth: deeming that lying is always wrong is purely an aesthetic judgement made by individuals or pushed on to them by others to the extent that they adopt it without thought.

[CosmicCat]

The Bible has instances of both "God" and Jesus lying.

The Bible has two instances of Abraham lying (Genesis 12:10–20, 20:1-16) and one instance of Isaac lying (Genesis 26:1–33) but no instances of either God or Jesus lying. Abraham and Isaac were sinners who were forgiven by having faith in God (for Abraham: Romans 4:3; for Isaac: Galatians 4:28). Jesus never sinned as a human (Hebrews 4:15) and God the Father and Jesus in His divine nature (John 1:1) are constitutionally incapable of lying. (Titus 1:2)

All Bible verses are NRSVCE. The New World Translation used by Jehovah's Witness cult is a faithless translation that mistranslates John 1:1 as saying "the Word was a god".

[Socionics Is A Cult]

The Bible has two instances of Abraham lying (Genesis 12:10–20, 20:1-16) and one instance of Isaac lying (Genesis 26:1–33) but no instances of either God or Jesus lying. Abraham and Isaac were sinners who were forgiven by having faith in God (for Abraham: Romans 4:3; for Isaac: Galatians 4:28). Jesus never sinned as a human (Hebrews 4:15) and God the Father and Jesus in His divine nature (John 1:1) are constitutionally incapable of lying. (Titus 1:2)

All Bible verses are NRSVCE. The New World Translation used by Jehovah's Witness cult is a faithless translation that mistranslates John 1:1 as saying "the Word was a god".

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” - Genesis 2:17

23 ”Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.” - 1 Kings 22:23

22 ”Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.” - 2 Chronicles 18:22

10 Then I said, “Ah, Lord God!
Surely You have greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem,
Saying, ‘You shall have peace,’
Whereas the sword reaches to the heart.” - Jeremiah 4:10

7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived; thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me. - Jeremiah 20:7

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. - Ezekiel 14:9

7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. - Matthew 7:7-8

19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” - Matthew 18:19-20

21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done. 22 And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.” - Matthew 21:21-22

24 Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them. - Mark 11:24

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” - Mark 16: 17-18

13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. - John 14:13-14

7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. - John 15:7

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. - John 15:16

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. - 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

[CosmicCat]

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” - Genesis 2:17

23 ”Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.” - 1 Kings 22:23

22 ”Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.” - 2 Chronicles 18:22

10 Then I said, “Ah, Lord God!
Surely You have greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem,
Saying, ‘You shall have peace,’
Whereas the sword reaches to the heart.” - Jeremiah 4:10

7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived; thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me. - Jeremiah 20:7

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. - Ezekiel 14:9

7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. - Matthew 7:7-8

19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” - Matthew 18:19-20

21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done. 22 And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.” - Matthew 21:21-22

24 Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them. - Mark 11:24

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” - Mark 16: 17-18

13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. - John 14:13-14

7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. - John 15:7

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. - John 15:16

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. - 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

All of these are clear from the context what the intended meaning of these passages are. If you take them out of context and try to assign a ridiculous meaning (e.g. using John 15:16 to mean that you can get whatever you want from Jesus like the Robin William's genie in Aladdin) then yes, you'll get a ridiculous conclusion such as that Jesus was a liar. But it is clear that that is not what He meant.

However, several of the passages (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 and 1 Kings 22:23) do talk about God sending a delusion. What about that? Well, God doesn't owe anybody the Truth, so if he passively lets them believe something false, that isn't lying, that's leaving them in the dark. It's akin to how a calculus instructor gives instruction to his students while letting some neighboring kid believe whatever they want regarding calculus.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

All of these are clear from the context what the intended meaning of these passages are. If you take them out of context and try to assign a ridiculous meaning (e.g. using John 15:16 to mean that you can get whatever you want from Jesus like the Robin William's genie in Aladdin) then yes, you'll get a ridiculous conclusion such as that Jesus was a liar. But it is clear that that is not what He meant.

However, several of the passages (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 and 1 Kings 22:23) do talk about God sending a delusion. What about that? Well, God doesn't owe anybody the Truth, so if he passively lets them believe something false, that isn't lying, that's leaving them in the dark. It's akin to how a calculus instructor gives instruction to his students while letting some neighboring kid believe whatever they want regarding calculus.

Misrepresentation is lying (in the case of an omniscient being).

OK, so you believe that "God" doesn't owe anybody the Truth. At least that's moving on from your view that it "requires divine revelation to know that lying can never ever be justified."

You have this in your signature: "All knowledge begins with the senses, proceeds through understanding, and ends with reason." - Immanuel Kant

which is rather contrary to you saying that it "requires divine revelation to know that lying can never ever be justified."