Judging People - Fi vs Fe

[Rubicon]

How exactly does Fi go about making judgments about people? When new information is received that isn't consistent with the opinion that is held about the person, is everything discarded and reevaluated from scratch? Or is the information just assimilated and the judgment modified accordingly?

To me, Fe is more about impressions of people. They are very open-ended with no definite borders so relevant information can flow in and out with no resistance. The impressions are constantly changing, but generally smoothly so that they don't feel like they are. I don't like to sum up my relationship status with a person, because I'd feel that it would only represent a snapshot in time ... which is hardly satisfactory when you're in a moving picture. How can you box something that's constantly evolving? My past impressions of people are all static though. When I look back, I can clearly define static relationships at different points in time.

[XoX]

To me, Fe is more about impressions of people. They are very open-ended with no definite borders so relevant information can flow in and out with no resistance. The impressions are constantly changing, but generally smoothly so that they don't feel like they are.

That's pretty clever description. As it makes it seem like Fe works with impressions just like Te works with objective information. And Fi works with relations just like Ti works with logical constructs. The extroverted functions are dynamic and ever changing and introverted functions are static and resist change. They just work in different realms of information. Actually this is pretty obvious but I never thought about it this way before.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It does not try to preserve or maintain set relationships, but to go with the dynamic flow of emotions within themselves and their environment. So there is a great deal of method to their madness, but it is a method that leaves Fi-valuers uncomfortable since they want stable relations.

Ugh. Fe people want stable relationships too, what are you implying there? Stable, healthy... long-term relationships are great for everybody. You think fe people are all ditzy blah blahers or something? We just prefer that yes, our actual emotions were respected for their own sake and not get pushed aside due to 'productivity.' Whether you think so or not, that's sheer nazism. There's no point or purpose or rhyme or reason to human emotions but they still need to be celebrated. You think your love is so special and great and other people don't know what it's like to have a one-on-one connection with somebody? Isolationist crap.

You loooove humans and our feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelings you do, admit it. ADMIT IT.

[Logos]

Ugh. Fe people want stable relationships too, what are you implying there? Stable, healthy... long-term relationships are great for everybody. You think fe people are all ditzy blah blahers or something? We just prefer that yes, our actual emotions were respected for their own sake and not get pushed aside due to 'productivity.' Whether you think so or not, that's sheer nazism. There's no point or purpose or rhyme or reason to human emotions but they still need to be celebrated. You think your love is so special and great and other people don't know what it's like to have a one-on-one connection with somebody? Isolationist crap.

You loooove humans and our feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelings you do, admit it. ADMIT IT.

I'm not implying that Fe people want chaotic relationships, but rather, more organic ones.

[Sirena]

Dolphin, what happened to your post? The one you directed at me. I just came looking for it to reply to you and it's gone!

[Sirena]

Oops. I didn't save it. Crap!! I'm sorry.

Ohhh dolphin! Your post was gold! I've been meaning to come around to reply to it, but it's been a crazy week. Anyway, a lot of what you said makes sense and I wanted you to know that I appreciate your words and your taking the time to clarify your intentions. I got a little defensive there for a bit, but it was mostly at myself for feeling I wasn't getting the message across the way it was in my head. Oh well, you're cool! <3

EDIT: we're both marine creatures afterall! hehe

EDIT: Sirena=mermaid

[Joy]

Fi vs. Ti may be a more useful way of looking at it. Like you said, Fe and Te are more about impressions (at least that's one way of putting it). Fi and Ti are better suited for judging people/situations/whatever based on a value system.

[munenori2]

Why do topics like these always make me think I really have no grasp on the IM elements and/or functions?

[Sirena]

Why do topics like these always make me think I really have no grasp on the IM elements and/or functions?

I don't know, but your avatar is the cutest!

[suoko]

The T and the F are J-functions. And the P and the N are P-functions. There is no such thing as judging in the personality theory. Here, it makes no difference if one is a dominant J or a dominant P, and it makes no difference if one's F/T are introverted or extroverted. The feeling or whatever being introverted or extroverted just means that one's feeling is dominantly extroverted or it's dominantly introverted.

[jason_m]

The T and the F are J-functions. And the P and the N are P-functions. There is no such thing as judging in the personality theory. Here, it makes no difference if one is a dominant J or a dominant P, and it makes no difference if one's F/T are introverted or extroverted. The feeling or whatever being introverted or extroverted just means that one's feeling is dominantly extroverted or it's dominantly introverted.

The way you are describing things makes me think that you are talking about the MBTI, not socionics, because you are talking about dichotomies and saying that Fi and Fe are very similar. Yes, there is a big difference between socionics and the MBTI.

Jason

[Lobo]

Reading this thread there is something that I don't quite understand. I know that this is an old discussion and all, but I'm curious. How is it that Fe is related to quick resolution of an emotional argument, while Fi is more of holding a grudge? I see holding a grudge a matter of pride instead of it being related to a function... I don't feel like I have the energy or the desire to maintain a grudge, I'd much rather resolve the matter at the moment it happens. As a negative situation lasts, as in not resolving the issue by not taking appropriate measures like just ignoring each other, it has a draining effect on me as time goes by. It's straining for me to deal with people who have problems apologizing or accepting apologies because they are too proud. To me this is a matter unrelated to socionics, though certain types maybe more prone to it?

[Sirena]

The way you are describing things makes me think that you are talking about the MBTI, not socionics, because you are talking about dichotomies and saying that Fi and Fe are very similar. Yes, there is a big difference between socionics and the MBTI.

Jason

Exactly!

[Ms. Kensington]

bumped for a more generalized discussion brought on by a recent thread.

all people are capable of judging. Fi people do it primarily by Fiing and Ti(Fe quadra) people do it primarily by Tiing. Judging is not equal to one or the other, though may be related somewhat to the type of cognitive process being used.

[Blaze]

MP: hubbie's right. she's not gonna change. make like a duck and let it flow over you, screw the emotional atmosphere, screw the relation. it's all about MAKING IT GO AWAY so you can get back to your life.

[Blaze]

Exactly. You see, my Fi has told me so for years. I'm just a big idiot trying on an on.

And my husband isn't right. I mean, if I stop listening, it won't be for the Fe. It will be as you said - I'll screw both Fe and Fi.

yeah...i meant he was right that she's not going to change.

this family issue is extremely difficult. letting go of what your family thinks, whether they approve of you or not, striving for that fantasy better relationship. bah.

what's even more interesting is that when you decide that you no longer care and this is reflected in your actions, you family will begin to pressure you to change back to your old predictable self. so you'll feel a powerful force to continue as you once did....in this way, the family pattern can ingrain itself.

the only way is to continue to not care, and go about your adult life. good luck - i think i need it too! (even at my age)

[Rubicon]

I'll give you an example of me valuing Fi>Fe and my ILE husband, having the opposite preference.

My mother and I have a communication problem, and that is a real sorrow for me, as I'd like for us to be close. She says a lot of things that really hurt my feelings.
My husband hears this, but advices me to just let the painful comments pass without commenting on them, pretend they were never spoken, and all this to keep a pleasant ambient when my mother and I meet. This is a Fe-advice. However, the Fe-advice doesn't make any sense to me in this particular case, as it's my mother we're talking about, and as I want a good relation to her. I feel that if I let her insults about my life choices and personality pass without commenting, I'm choosing to not listen to her, and that is a permanent choice, thus I immediately make a choice to permanently not respect her opinions. It will be a failed relation. So I reason with her, trying to make her "understand" me "permanently"(Fi). I have this obsession thinking that if I can just get her to understand me and accept that I'm different, then we don't have to agree, but we can respect each other in the future . I would rather have a good emotional relation (Fi) with her than to have a good time right here right now (Fe). If a good emotional atmosphere (Fe) was my prime goal, I'd just avoid her all the time. (Obviously I'd prefer both good Fe and good Fi.)

(I do realize I probably won't ever have a good relation with her, so in a way I should just let the words pass... But when I finally get to that point, it won't be to gain a good emotional atmosphere (Fe), but because I know a good relation won't ever happen, so I could just as well go for the good Fe. I just can't stop trying. Thus the grief I feel. When I stop listening, It won't be because Fe becomes more important to me. It will be because I'll finally admit that my Fi was right - we will never have a good relation. I wouldn't normally try to change what my Fi has told is useless. With other people insulting my on and on, I would just avoid them, and then disrespect them by letting insults fly uncommented. But it's my mother. It's difficult.)

It's not as simple as Fe being just all about a good emotional atmosphere in the present. Just because Fe is gathering and processing information in the present doesn't mean it can't be used for long-term goals - that there can't be vision behind the use of it. Fe can be used to further an Fi agenda. Not to say I know what you're going through, though I sympathise, but I think there is something to just letting some things pass. You're talking about Fe being about the present emotional environment, but it seems to me that what you're doing is all about the present rather than keeping your goal in mind. Excuse me for jumping to conclusions if they're wrong, but maybe you're too consistently protesting and pulling your mother up on what she's saying. If you let some things slide in the present, this may get your mother's attention more than your usual reaction which may be so expected by now that it hardly registers on your mother's radar. And letting things slide in the present doesn't mean to say you're being dishonest or untrue to yourself - you're just not taking your mother's bait like she probably expects you to. Maybe it is a lost cause - I don't know - but I would think a potentially good relationship with your mother is worth trying different tactics for. I don't think there's much wrong with using Fe for manipulation purposes if you have a worthy goal in mind. Of course there are multiple ways you could use your Fe to get her attention, yelling or whatever, but I just think it may be worth trying to shake things up a bit.

[Expat]

This thread has contained more useful information than most recent threads.

I agree with BLauritson's post.

excellent example of why ILEs cannot redeem themselves around an ESI. because they focus on every single little social error they see the ILE as commiting....even if ILE didn't really mean it.

take a look at the stratiyevskaya description of ILE...it's totally fucking unrelenting.

You tend to refer it to "social errors", and I disagree with that, or at least it's necessary to define what is meant by "social". Some people would say that a "social error" is, for instance, bad table manners, or an inclination to drink just a bit too much in any social occasion and behave in a slightly embarrassing, but harmless, way; or doing things like abruptly interrupting others, etc. These are the kind of "social errors" ESIs generally dont' care much about.

What they do care about, and are indeed "unrelenting", and I have observed this with both SLEs and ILEs, are "loyalty errors". For instance, if someone repeats in public what the ESI told in confidence. In that case, yes, "every little loyalty error" is stored and added to the Fi understanding of the person.

I can relate to the PM stuff. For those I feel a strong bond with (despite me not showing my feelings and being afraid to stain those feelings by presenting them to the world), I can see myself, in my mind, making a noble sacrifice, Se style, for the sake of the one who I have that attachment towards. I skimmed over it at first, but it makes a lot of sense.

"how can you judge something that is always changing"? I found that statement interesting as Fe seems to be about impressions one gets from someone upon interaction and one day the impression can be negative but provided a change on another day, the impression can totally change. Maybe.

I think Fi takes into account how someone previously has acted and makes note of a person's ethical trend, making them more liable to skepticism that a person has truly changed based on the current impression. Like, if someone I know is typically good-willed and is having an asshole or bitch day, I recognize that something is off in this person's life and I'm concerned about the person, I guess, though I choose to butt out of their business. If someone is usually an asshat and has typically expressed himself in ways that violates my code of ethics (if I think they are universal ethics versus ethics that apply particularly to me because of a religious or philosophical standing), I may never trust the person fully, no matter how nice they act towards me. I'll always be hesitant in dealing with this person and be wondering if there are ulterior motives involved. I greatly distrust surface impressions though if they do try to act cordially with me, I won't act like a jerk to them. Even if they act otherwise, I'll ignore them or still try to be cordial in order to protect my own dignity (which I hold as extremely precious, more so than most anything, I'll admit.).

Yep.

That's pretty clever description. As it makes it seem like Fe works with impressions just like Te works with objective information. And Fi works with relations just like Ti works with logical constructs. The extroverted functions are dynamic and ever changing and introverted functions are static and resist change. They just work in different realms of information. Actually this is pretty obvious but I never thought about it this way before.

Yes I think that's a good way of putting it. Ti uses Te information to "refine" itself - an expression that Ti-valuers often use, ime, since they dislike the idea that they changed their conclusions totally - but it's important that the "core" remains, so "building" on it . And the same for Fi with Fe.

[Blaze]

@expat: i think we are probably defining social errors differently. i didn't mean table manners. i meant Fi polr type of errors, which i think has to do more with boundaries than miss manners.

[Expat]

@expat: i think we are probably defining social errors differently. i didn't mean table manners. i meant Fi polr type of errors, which i think has to do more with boundaries than miss manners.

I thought as much, but I thought it was important to make it clear.

[Slacker]

I like the image of Fi being like scales, with positives on one side and negatives on the other. That is pretty accurate in my experience. And the part about Se getting involved by needing to take action, well with weak Se what I do is I just back away and cut off contact with someone. I've really hurt some feelings with that but I can't seem to confront people (weak Se) and I am not comfortable maintaining a relationship once those scales get too off-balance, so I'm left with just disappearing. I can see the description of having to take action when someone unbalances the scales in my ISFj brother. He HAS to say SOMETHING.

It seems like people with strong Fe can have these big blow-out arguments and then be best friends again the next day. For me, if someone gets that upset at me and I get that upset at them, that's generally it.