The Dark Knight

[Gilly]

My thoughts for types:

Batman: ILI 5w6 sx/sp
Joker: Obviously Beta NF IMO; he seems like a 4w5 so/sx so IEI>EIE
Harvey Dent: LIE, or perhaps IEE, 6w7 so/sx (Nick gets a point for me being 6 because I actually identified somewhat with this guy )
Alfred: ESI (this is the most obvious typing of them all IMO); seems like a 2w1 sx/sp
Rachel Dawes: SEE; seems like a 7w6 sx/so
Lucius Fox: LSI; seems 1w2 sp/sx
Gordon: LSE or SLI; 8w9 or 9w8 sp/sx

[Gilly]

Actually I can see the case for the Joker as SEI.

[Gilly]

I dunno, I think the Joker is more IEI than SEI. He's all about seeing how people are "when the chips are down" and such, which is a very, very Beta NF kind of thing. My EIE friend and I had an extensive discussion once about making people feel awkward and seeing how people act when you push them out of their comfort zone, when they are forced to deal with something unfamiliar, when people push the envelope and so forth. "The Naked Feeling"

The Joker seems obsessed with his conception of human nature, which is the kind of territory that I think Beta NFs often delve into; I know that I've taken these kinds of things "too far" before myself. He also seems to be very much enamored with his "image" as frightening, talking all about his scars and putting on all the makeup and soforth.

I think the generally self-entertaining nature of his antics points more Alpha than Beta, as does the "Do I look like a man with a plan?" quote but I think the former is more stereotypically villain-esque than anything, and the latter almost seems like the ontological "result" of his self-centered perspective on human nature (ie it's part of his "philosophy" more than his personality). Looking at the whole picture IEI makes more sense I think.

[Gilly]

That's hillarious

[discojoe]

Alfred: ESI (I think Michael Caine is, too)

Lucius Fox: IEE

Rachel: EIE

Dent: LSE

Joker: ILE

Gordon: EII

And I know I'm going to be accused of bias here, but I'm going to agree with Ezra and say that Bale's Wayne/Batman is ESI:




He's got a very small circle of friends, pretty much only two people (three, if you count Gordon).

He keeps a cool psychological distance from even his close friends, except when in the most intimate of situations.

He doesn't do business or play politics with people he doesn't feel he can trust, preferring instead to use force as Batman to deal with people he doesn't like or trust.

He takes very little time deciding that someone is trustworthy. He wanted to feel out Dent at dinner, and seemed to do so very quickly.

He has a lack of concern for rank and the law, having no moral qualms going against the establishment to exact his own vigilante justice, even if it means beating up police officers, smuggling himself into other countries, kidnapping, etc.

No problem exerting violent force on people when he feels they deserve it.

He's got strong Fe he uses to pretend to be an asshole Beta when in his public Bruce Wayne persona.

He doesn't seem to have any real interest in his gadgets or toys beyond seeing them as tools, though he does show a mild personal interest in cars for their Se value. His dwellings are always spartan and tidy. His appearance is meticulous. This doesn't necessarily point toward ESI, but I think it does point away from intuitive types somewhat, and in my opinion it means strong Si.

His conversation with Gordon at the end of Batman Begins seemed like possible EII/ESI relations. They were both on the same page in terms of Fi, but Gordon was bringing up Ne concerns about possible criminal escalation, which Batman seemed to find irrelevant.

[Logos]

Batman/Bruce Wayne: LSI.

[Gilly]

I can see Bruce as an ESI. Rachel as EIE could make sense as well, but Lucius Fox as IEE I cannot see at all. He seems solidly IJ to me. I could see EII, though; 1w2 nonetheless.

Why ILE for the Joker? I thought his worldview being centered around his positions on human nature, as well as the showmanship and dramatics he engages in that are totally irrelevant, and actually detrimental, to his criminal methods and the general victim (literally) attitude of the character were all very much Beta NF; however, ironically, what makes him so unstoppable is his ability to predict how people will react in certain situations; he sets traps for people and manipulates them to get them to do what he wants them to do in order to not only pull off a squeaky-clean crime, but to also deliberately and directly thwart his pursuer's attempts at catching him; indeed that seems to be half the game for him. Also his tirades about Batman's "rules" seemed like Beta "ends-justify-the-means" commentary on the common-sense morality of Gamma.

As for Dent, I could see LIE more easily than LSE. I don't think an LSE would be "afraid" of public appearances like parties the way he was; more just tired or annoyed. I think he displays some good signs of weak Se (although admittedly the courtroom scene was not one of them, lol). My first impression of him was actually EIE, but the relationship with Rachel and the approach to the character as being inherently good and pure in some way made me shy away from EIE as a typing for him. Also I think the highly Gamma theme of "revenge" is played out as his primary character flaw.

[Lotus]

I saw this today. Wow, Heath was really good.

[duality is cringe]

Lucius Fox: LSI; seems 1w2 sp/sx

I think a corporation called 'LSI' was mentioned in a scene with Lucius Fox.

[Joy]

I think a corporation called 'LSI' was mentioned in a scene with Lucius Fox.

lol

[Expat]

My thoughts for types:

Batman: ILI 5w6 sx/sp
Joker: Obviously Beta NF IMO; he seems like a 4w5 so/sx so IEI>EIE
Harvey Dent: LIE, or perhaps IEE, 6w7 so/sx (Nick gets a point for me being 6 because I actually identified somewhat with this guy )
Alfred: ESI (this is the most obvious typing of them all IMO); seems like a 2w1 sx/sp
Rachel Dawes: SEE; seems like a 7w6 sx/so
Lucius Fox: LSI; seems 1w2 sp/sx
Gordon: LSE or SLI; 8w9 or 9w8 sp/sx

I finally watched it, last Saturday, in London, and I agree with most of Gilly's views, except that I tend to see Batman as ESI, and Harvey Dent as EIE>LIE.

I thought it was really good. I was impressed at how convincing the transition from Harvey Dent to Two-Face was. First, that was an accurate portrayal of Two-Face's psychology, and they build it up well with his playing with the coin from the beginning. Second, they successfully build up Dent's character into someone you can understand and care about - and then make him fall, which increases its impact much more.

That is how the Anakin Skywaker -> Darth Vader transition should have been handled, instead of having Anakin as a darkly petulant kid who was already "half fallen" to begin with.

[Phaedrus]

Expat, you are an idiot if you don't see that Joker is an ILE.

[discojoe]

Expat, you are an idiot if you don't see that Joker is an ILE.

I agree (that the Joker is ILE).

[discojoe]

I thought Dent/Two Face was a more enjoyable character than the Joker, who felt more like a nuisance than anything.

[Khamelion]

I thought Dent/Two Face was a more enjoyable character than the Joker, who felt more like a nuisance than anything.

It was the other way around for me....except I don't really care about it. Liked the movie as a whole and don't have any complaints about the characters.

[Gilly]

I have been thinking about this...I think ESI or LSI, either one, could work for Batman, for different reasons. Harvey as EIE was my final conclusion, and I find it interesting that you (expat) draw the parallel to Anakin, because both are characters I identify with very much; in fact my sister was the first to bring my more overt similarities with Anakin to my attention.