The Dark Knight

[UDP]

What I've said in this thread is retracted. I still my "opinion" about the Joker, but I don't see this discussion or at least my participation in it as encouraging anything useful.

[munenori2]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!@

Jxrtes, that description was the best one ever! I really need to go see this movie now.

[Gilly]

On Batman and the whole "trust" thing with Harvey, I don't think it's really Fi related "trust;" I think it's more idealogical trust, trying to see what kind of person he is, seeing if he walks the walk; it doesn't have anything to do with Bruce Wayne/Batman's actual relationship with Harvey. That said I think it's more of a Se thing: "Is this guy real? Does he actually believe and act on the things he says he does? Is he just putting on a show or does he really mean it?"

On this premis, typings:

Batman: LSI
Harvey: EIE
Rachel: SLE
Joker: IEI

Just a thought.

[duality is cringe]

thaaaaaaaaaaanks!@

mune2, the movie could have been way better handled, I thought. But I was forced to sit really far to the side in the very front row so I didn't quite capture the whole experience. Though they really should have gone in depth into the psychological reasons behind the joker's madness, it would have been so much more interesting...

That would have ruined it IMO. It would have been way too easy and uninteresting to just say that the Joker is evil because of this or that or his dad beat him or something. He's best left a mystery who crafts a million web of lies as to why he is the way is. An anomaly who "just is." Besides, this wasn't supposed to be Joker Begins or anything.

Anyway, I liked the mystery of the character.

[jessica129]

Saw it again and yep, still sucks.

[olduser]

does anyone know where i can watch or download this on the internet?

[Gilly]

dude it's worth seeing in the theater. For real.

[olduser]

dude it's worth seeing in the theater. For real.

i scrape, kid. i don't spend any money unless it's on food.

[Gilly]

What are you, 19? 20? Maybe 21? I'm sure you can think of a better word for a peer than "kid."

Why do you live so close to the belt? Is $8 really that much to you, or are you just stingy?

[UDP]

Heath, get that girl who can't stop talking to you to "invite you" out to the new batman movie. There's no talking during the movie, you'll be alright.

Do it.

[olduser]

i'm not a fucking charity case fuck you fuck you!!!!!

ahaha.

nah, gilligan's right. kid is a bad term for peers.

[Rubicon]

The joker seems competent enough in the use of Se, but rarely uses it. Se is related to the direct aquisition of goals. Rather he prefers to indulge in cruel games and such, enjoying people's expressions of fear, using colourful gimmicks and toys... his ability to switch between these two functions is phenomenally quick. He can focus on quickly satisfying the need for direct action, but always prefers to draw out the situation, to make it into some kind of game between him and the rest of the police/batman/the mob. This is , ISFp and alpha to the bone, where direct aquisition of goals is replaced by fully exploring and interacting with the ongoing dynamic in the present.

Yeah - greaaaaat joker synopsis, Jxrtes. I also think he's Si-leading. Most villains in movies do that icy calm thing, but it just makes you nervous because you can tell they're about to explode at any minute - the calm before the storm ... but the Joker had this real calmness about him that put you at ease even while he was doing grotesque things. lol

[Gilly]

Yeah - greaaaaat joker synopsis, Jxrtes. I also think he's Si-leading. Most villains in movies do that icy calm thing, but it just makes you nervous because you can tell they're about to explode at any minute - the calm before the storm ... but the Joker had this real calmness about him that put you at ease even while he was doing grotesque things. lol

O_O I thought the Joker seemed anything but calm; he seems more constantly on edge, if you ask me. Look at the scene where he goes into the mob den, probably the best "up close and personal" picture of him in the movie. Also I'm not sure that "ability to attain goals" has much to do with Se; the Joker seemed more like he had artfully constructed crimes laid out, planned meticulously and preparing for multiple courses of events, but, when things went wrong, as per Batman figuring him out in the tower scene near the end, he just kind of resorts to scare tactics and manipulation (the scene where he's strung up on the edge of the tower).

[Rubicon]

So do all ISFps have joker potential?

Can only speak for myself. Ummm, dunno - I'd have to get over my fainting at the sight of blood thing - that would get in the way of plans a bit.

[Rubicon]

O_O I thought the Joker seemed anything but calm; he seems more constantly on edge, if you ask me. Look at the scene where he goes into the mob den, probably the best "up close and personal" picture of him in the movie.

You mean when he does the pencil thing? He didn't seem on edge to me. What makes you think he was?

[Gilly]

His whole demeanor...he was just edgy, shaky, nervous looking.

[Gilly]

-INFp: An emo-kid, an emotionally unstable character who needs to reveal his dark inner world through his actions (think Sepphiroth from Final Fantasy)

The joker is not emo in that sense. He's constantly presenting objective moral dillemmas, eg. the ferries and the thing with two-face, not trying to reveal his feelings and motivations, and not trying to put in motion some singular, great plan. But trying to expose everyone for what they really are in a concrete, Si/Ti sense.

I think the Joker is exactly what you describe IEI villains as here, and I see all of this as rather Beta. All of the hints of his tortured past almost make it seem like his underlying motive is to revenge himself on the world that has caused him so much pain. And he IS trying to put a plan or vision into practice: creating chaos and destabilizing people. He IS aiming at people's motivations: he switches Two-Face's focus from revenge on the Joker to revenge on the people who "failed him;" he didn't just try to get him to "calm down," but instead redirected his anger (very much like what I could see an IEI doing to an SLE); he didn't avoid the conflict with Two-Face, but rather met it head-on, and diverted the attention away from himself; Se/Ni>Ne/Si IMO. And I think exposing people for "what they really are," having these grand ideas about human nature and being motivated by philosophical perspectives on humanity/culture is much more Beta than Alpha; the theme of "testing people," seeing what they can stand up to, what they are "made of," is very Victim-esque IMO.

[Gilly]

It's true that any Quadra can have theories about human nature, but I think it's particularly "NF" of him to be solely motivated by these. The hints of acting out anger from a damaged past and the "victim" light he presents himself in during these explanations makes me think Beta NF even more.

[Gilly]

He wasn't abstract enough in his motivations to be an intuitive type? Generalized statements about human nature aren't abstract enough for an intuitive type? rofl...this is ridiculous. You are taking small things and blowing them up, and even when you do they don't make sense. Sorry, but between this, Nick, and my own type thread, I've dealt with enough silliness for tonight...

[Khola aka Bee]

Yeah - greaaaaat joker synopsis, Jxrtes. I also think he's Si-leading. Most villains in movies do that icy calm thing, but it just makes you nervous because you can tell they're about to explode at any minute - the calm before the storm ... but the Joker had this real calmness about him that put you at ease even while he was doing grotesque things. lol

YES!!! Told you he was SEI.

I just totally felt it. If I went nuts, that's exactly how I would behave...in fact, I have behaved like this to a much lesser degree after emotional manipulation in the past.

OMG MUST WATCH AGAIN! (for a 3rd time)

[Gilly]

Why is he such a sensor? Where does he demonstrate strong Si? His use of NiFe is obvious in predicting people's reactions to his schemes as a way of foiling "rescue attempts," using people's predicted reactions to the situations he presents in order to "fool" his enemies into making incorrect moves, and by making his abstractions on human nature his primary focus, motivation, and method of explanation for "how the world works." Where's the Si? What's so "sensor" about him?

[Wynch]

Yeah, I don't really see Si in the Joker, to be honest. What people are calling Si seems to be mistaken for IP temperament, IMO. He seems like an intuitive to me. I'm not sure about the case for Ni/Fe, but you might be able to make it to me. ENFp seems like a very legitimate possibility, as does ENTp. One could argue that he has a very solid superficial understanding of how people will act and the principle of cause/effect. If you look at the outcome of some of his actions, you see that he often seems to have things planned out, and subsequently adjusts as things take different turns. He never seem particularly surprised, in fact the only time he really seems thrown when things don't unfold the way he initially intended is *SPOILER BELOW*





when the boats don't blow each other to pieces. Evidence that he consciously recognizes his inability to always correctly judge people? He seems to have several back-up plans. As in the case of the alternate detonator.

I would say ENXp, personally. With ENFj as a possible alternative.

[Gilly]

Vero if you want to see my case for Beta NF take a look at my posts in this thread. Personally I think it's pretty solid.


I think the *SPOILER BELOW*





...part where the boats don't blow up is supposed to be more of a kind of commentary on the fact that even the things he is "good" at are superseded by the natural goodness of human nature; ie, all criminal acts, even the criminal's best try using his best resources, are ultimately outdone by the inherent good in people. That's my take anyways.

I think EP temperament makes sense on the surface, what with his unpredictability and such, but overall I think the case for Beta NF outweighs the superficially "EP" tendencies that he exhibits.

[machintruc]

Dark Knight = total LSI

[Markuz]

Dark Knight = total LSI

I agree. And also with the ENXp typing of Joker.

[eunice]

I have just watched the movie and I don't understand why it is so hyped up. I will watch it once and that's it.

On the other hand, it took me a while to get used to Joker's character because he is so unpredictable, hence what he has done was beyond my expectation. I found myself closing my eyes during the scenes in which he puts the knife so close to the victims' faces because I can easily visualise what will happen next. I find Jack Nicholson's portrayal of Joker in one of the past Batman movie more bearable. At least that Joker is more humane than the current one.

[duality is cringe]

I find Jack Nicholson's portrayal of Joker in one of the past Batman movie more bearable. At least that Joker is more humane than the current one.

lol.

The very fact that there is any expectation or hope that the Joker would (or should) be humane is a testament to just how wrong Burton's direction really was.

Too bad fans of the old franchise don't like the new movies who's tone and characterizations are so much closer to the source material.

Eh, I love it anyways.

[Logos]

lol.

The very fact that there is any expectation or hope that the Joker would (or should) be humane is a testament to just how wrong Burton's direction really was.

Too bad fans of the old franchise don't like the new movies who's tone and characterizations are so much closer to the source material.

Eh, I love it anyways.

Only within the last 20 years of Batman source material.

[duality is cringe]

Yes, but the bulk of Burton's influence came from early 1940's era material. Outdated even by the late '80s.

It seems that at every time there was an opportunity to get proper characterizations for Bruce Wayne, Jim Gordon, Penguin, or Catwoman, Burton deliberately chose to go in the opposite direction. As if he cared more about what was interesting to him, rather than what was faithful or correct even by 1989 or '88.

A former writer who worked on Burton's BATMAN RETURNS orginal screenplay (Dan Waters I believe) has spoken in interviews about his frustration with Burton's lack in interest in giving an accurate depiction of Bruce Wayne. Supposedly, there was originally a theme with Bruce Wayne becoming disillusioned with Gotham, where people were so easily "taken in" and fooled by criminals (Penguin's popularity in RETURNS) that Wayne began to wonder if Gotham was actually "getting exactly what it deserved."

That would have been an interesting storyline and is exactly what I'd expect from the Bruce Wayne of the comics. Tim Burton, on the other hand, thought that it was wrong to make Wayne "too aware and openly reflective" and that the character should be depicted as generally aloof. In both movies, Wayne appears to be some sort of 'mysterious' or bizzare character just sleep walking through the movie amist other, more interesting characters with no clear direction.

Even though the dark tone of Burton's Batman movies was influenced by Miller's work on YEAR ONE and THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, it differed greatly from those classic stories in regards to the main protaganist's characterization as well as Batman's motivations as a vigilante and his relationship with Jim Gordon. Both of which seemed nonexistant in Burton's franchise.

Not to mention the whole killing issue. There are many who believe that Burton's Batman was portrayed too much as a borderline psychotic also. The old '70s and '80s era of Batman comics didn't largely ignore the main character either.

These are the things I was refering to.

[Ezra]

I find Jack Nicholson's portrayal of Joker in one of the past Batman movie more bearable. At least that Joker is more humane than the current one.

And that's exactly why Ledger did such a cracking job of playing the Joker.

I had trouble typing the Joker. He didn't seem to value Ti, although I think EIE is the closest thing I could think of, as he scorned the Gamma money obsession, and was clearly Se/Ni valuing. He certainly wasn't adept in Ti, as there was no method whatsoever to his madness.

I'm content with Alfred's being an LSE. He's a great example of a Caregiver in my eyes.

As for Batman, I stand by ESI.

Rachel in this one was more difficult to type than in Batman Begins, when she was played by Katie Holmes, who I thought portrayed her as an LSI.

Harvey Dent? Probably an EIE.

[Joy]

as there was no method whatsoever to his madness

There was though. He just liked to make it look like there wasn't.

[Gilly]

At least that Joker is more humane than the current one.

But that's what's so much better about Ledger's Joker: he's incredibly unpredictable, leaves you feeling shaken up, not knowing what to expect, or what ridiculous lengths he might go to next...you get the sense that he is capable of anything simply because nothing is off limits, nothing is "too far" for him. That, IMO, is what makes him a truly effective character, scary in an entertaining, "what the hell will he do next" kind of way. I thought it was brilliant.

[strrrng]

Yeah, he is insane obviously, but did you read my reasons for Beta NF? Psycho-social-centric philosophy, predicting people's reactions, wanting to get under people's skin and know who they really are "when the cards are down," showboating, eccentric self-presentation, etc...I think the part where he talks about his "three loves" is very Ti: he has this set of preferred tools that he uses, and keeps his methods of crime simple by staying within his small set of "rules" for causing mayhem while combining it with his manipulation of human nature and ability to predict people's reactions...I dunno, seems very Beta to me.

YES. thank you. Joker = Ni-INFp 4w5 sx/so (or so/sx). Everything revolved around his NiFe perception of things - human nature, as above stated, being prominent; forces of nature; irrationality in the universe - finding underlying trends and expressing them in the effective way he did, emotionally speaking. And there was a huge indulgence in understanding the Ti general principles of things, but since it wasn't an ego function, it was used more for fun, to support the Ni than for any significant purpose.

lol I could tell that motherfucker was beta NF the second he walked into the mob den with that crazy-ass demeanor, subtly manipulating the atmosphere around him.

[Gilly]

lol I could tell that motherfucker was beta NF the second he walked into the mob den with that crazy-ass demeanor, subtly manipulating the atmosphere around him.

Your ego is way too big

*pop*

[strrrng]

Your ego is way too big

*pop*

ugh lol, I figured someone would say something like that. I was just trying to compliment my kin on a job well done lol, not aggrandize *us*...but w/e!

[Gilly]

my name iz nick and i subtlely manipulate teehee

[Lotus]

Your ego is way too big

*pop*

my name iz nick and i subtlely manipulate teehee

<3

[strrrng]

oh hush plz lol

[Gilly]

Awww nicky, 's ok, you can still pretend to be a big boy

Just don't make me put you on time out again :wink:

[Lotus]

I just want to hug both of you.