Till Lindemann

[Smilingeyes]

I think it goes without saying that we have an intertype misunderstanding here surrounding Ne and Ti. You do not consider my kind of damn research to be real damn research because you do not see any analytical process taking place, and I do not see your damn arguments as being real damn arguments. I can accept that, but I still do not agree with your opinion of Lindemann's type. And I think you are being very pompous to give me instructions like you are. But then again maybe I am also being pompous in making snide remarks about your posts. So we are even.

You are still talking about everything but the actual issue of Lindemann's type, refusing to see or comment on any evidence on it and attempting to fudge the issue. I have no reason to support the use of such tactics.

[Rick]

You are still talking about everything but the actual issue of Lindemann's type, refusing to see or comment on any evidence on it and attempting to fudge the issue. I have no reason to support the use of such tactics.

Um... okay, twiddle-dee-dum. I think Lindemann is an LSI. There. So, what is your opinion?

[Smilingeyes]

Um... okay, twiddle-dee-dum. I think Lindemann is an LSI. There. So, what is your opinion?

Read the thread.

Do you have anything to support your opinion? So far I have seen nothing.

[Rick]

Read the thread.

Do you have anything to support your opinion? So far I have seen nothing.

Listening to their music and watching their videos, and also watching interviews of Lindemann, I have responded to them in certain ways that correspond to other LSIs and LSI centered music. For me their music is very harsh and repetitive and lacks melodic qualities that are pleasing to my ear. Their short percussive phrases grate on me. Their music has a stark, point-blank quality that I cannot resonate with, mostly because there is no rich melodic structure to draw my musical ear in. I don't understand their fascination with rhythmic, repetitive motions on stage, or their costumes, their master-and-servant motifs, and the whole dark atmosphere of their concerts. Appearance-wise, Lindemann reminds me of Russell Crowe and James Hetfield. He is very serious and stern in interviews in a way that would make me uncomfortable talking to him. After I get used to them I can begin to see some of the humor and playfulness in them and find interesting aspects in their artistry, but it is not of the kind that I would respond to well in real life. Part of it is that to me they seem angry all the time, and I don't take that well.

[Smilingeyes]

Listening to their music and watching their videos, and also watching interviews of Lindemann, I have responded to them in certain ways that correspond to other LSIs and LSI centered music. For me their music is very harsh and repetitive and lacks melodic qualities that are pleasing to my ear. Their short percussive phrases grate on me. Their music has a stark, point-blank quality that I cannot resonate with, mostly because there is no rich melodic structure to draw my musical ear in. I don't understand their fascination with rhythmic, repetitive motions on stage, or their costumes, their master-and-servant motifs, and the whole dark atmosphere of their concerts. Appearance-wise, Lindemann reminds me of Russell Crowe and James Hetfield. He is very serious and stern in interviews in a way that would make me uncomfortable talking to him. After I get used to them I can begin to see some of the humor and playfulness in them and find interesting aspects in their artistry, but it is not of the kind that I would respond to well in real life. Part of it is that to me they seem angry all the time, and I don't take that well.

Ok, thank you. This is at least an attempt to make a case. I will answer this best I can.

Harshness and repetition. This is something that is typical of Te. Cold, impassionality. It is not meant to evoke Fe, not meant to evoke powerful emotion.
Their master-and-servant motif relates to the harshness and masochism of Lindemann himself. ESTj and ISTp are not leader characters, the attitude is "The world is harsh, but I'm man enought to bear it." Te-ESTj are angry a lot of the time. It is even stereotypical of them.

I will make no comment on the physical qualities of Hetfield, Crowe vs. Lindemann. VI over physical characteristics is very weak as evidence goes and besides I have no opinion on Crowe's type. But if you compare the body language. Open wikipedia page of Hetfield. Hetfield has an expression in that pic that you will not find on Lindemann. Also, try to imagine Lindemann having that kind of a beard. It would not fit his image. The particulars of their appearance that are theirs to control and show their personality are quite different. When Hetfield is on stage, there's much more intensive emotion in his performance. Lindemann goes into something like a trance like state. When you look at pics of Hetfield, is constantly making aggressive signs towards the camera. Lindemann is dispassionate.

Now you are quite strong in Ne and Lindemann is closer to Te. There is about 1/4 of quadra difference. There is no reason why his message should resonate with you particularly much. It is industrial metal. Think about such words like: effectiveness, machinery, factory, organized violence, police. Do you find these words in synch with yourself? Also, Lindemann is singing mostly about things that cause him pain. By sympathetic affection if you understand what he sings about you should feel anguish, not pleasure, that is if you are able to receive the message such as he portrays it.

I consider this to be a sufficient repudiation of the matters you brought forth and consider you to be again with very little evidence.

[Rick]

Harshness and repetition. This is something that is typical of Te. Cold, impassionality. It is not meant to evoke Fe, not meant to evoke powerful emotion.
Their master-and-servant motif relates to the harshness and masochism of Lindemann himself. ESTj and ISTp are not leader characters, the attitude is "The world is harsh, but I'm man enought to bear it." Te-ESTj are angry a lot of the time. It is even stereotypical of them.

I will make no comment on the physical qualities of Hetfield, Crowe vs. Lindemann. VI over physical characteristics is very weak as evidence goes and besides I have no opinion on Crowe's type. But if you compare the body language. Open wikipedia page of Hetfield. Hetfield has an expression in that pic that you will not find on Lindemann. Also, try to imagine Lindemann having that kind of a beard. It would not fit his image. The particulars of their appearance that are theirs to control and show their personality are quite different. When Hetfield is on stage, there's much more intensive emotion in his performance. Lindemann goes into something like a trance like state. When you look at pics of Hetfield, is constantly making aggressive signs towards the camera. Lindemann is dispassionate.

Now you are quite strong in Ne and Lindemann is closer to Te. There is about 1/4 of quadra difference. There is no reason why his message should resonate with you particularly much. It is industrial metal. Think about such words like: effectiveness, machinery, factory, organized violence, police. Do you find these words in synch with yourself? Also, Lindemann is singing mostly about things that cause him pain. By sympathetic affection if you understand what he sings about you should feel anguish, not pleasure, that is if you are able to receive the message such as he portrays it.

I consider this to be a sufficient repudiation of the matters you brought forth and consider you to be again with very little evidence.

In my system of socionics repetition of form is characteristic of Ti, not Te. It is imposing a structure upon objects that is not inherent to the objects themselves. In music, the combination Ti + Se is like beating a message into your brain. In ordinary speech this corresponds to statements such as: "No. That is wrong. Start over." In architecture -- repetition of form and structure, such as symmetric rows of columns. In thought systems -- logically consistent (i.e. applying the same rules everywhere) structures of ideas or rules.

In master-and-servant motifs, one person is controlling or imposing himself upon another. This is one possible expression of Se in my understanding of socionics: one object is dominating or possessing the other. As much as I have seen, Rammstein's videos and performances are full of this. The attitudes you are associating with LSE and SLI I associate with Se.

Yes, there are differences between those three people, but there are also many similarities. I do not find Lindemann dispassionate and mild compared to Hetfield. To me they are both "angry men," the difference being that Hetfield is from smiley America, and Lindemann from stern and solemn Germany.

The words you mention -- "effectiveness, machinery, factory, organized violence, police. "

"Effectiveness" I generally relate to Te. The rest -- at least in the context they are being used in this music -- I associate with Ti + Se. Men are part of the machine. Machines fight machines. Men fight the law. The state suppresses men. These are statements about the organization of power within society -- again, a Ti + Se message. These are not topics Delta types resonate with, in my experience. It makes them depressed, if anything. In Rammstein's music there seems to be no solution proposed, so it is not clear what the singer's ideals are: is he promoting violence or condemning it?

You say, "It is not meant to evoke Fe, not meant to evoke powerful emotion" and at the same time, "if you understand what he sings about you should feel anguish." Anguish is not a Delta motif; it's much too strong an emotion and quite destructive for Delta types.

[Smilingeyes]

In my system of socionics repetition of form is characteristic of Ti, not Te. It is imposing a structure upon objects that is not inherent to the objects themselves. In music, the combination Ti + Se is like beating a message into your brain. In ordinary speech this corresponds to statements such as: "No. That is wrong. Start over." In architecture -- repetition of form and structure, such as symmetric rows of columns. In thought systems -- logically consistent (i.e. applying the same rules everywhere) structures of ideas or rules.

In master-and-servant motifs, one person is controlling or imposing himself upon another. This is one possible expression of Se in my understanding of socionics: one object is dominating or possessing the other. As much as I have seen, Rammstein's videos and performances are full of this. The attitudes you are associating with LSE and SLI I associate with Se.

Yes, there are differences between those three people, but there are also many similarities. I do not find Lindemann dispassionate and mild compared to Hetfield. To me they are both "angry men," the difference being that Hetfield is from smiley America, and Lindemann from stern and solemn Germany.

The words you mention -- "effectiveness, machinery, factory, organized violence, police. "

"Effectiveness" I generally relate to Te. The rest -- at least in the context they are being used in this music -- I associate with Ti + Se. Men are part of the machine. Machines fight machines. Men fight the law. The state suppresses men. These are statements about the organization of power within society -- again, a Ti + Se message. These are not topics Delta types resonate with, in my experience. It makes them depressed, if anything. In Rammstein's music there seems to be no solution proposed, so it is not clear what the singer's ideals are: is he promoting violence or condemning it?

You say, "It is not meant to evoke Fe, not meant to evoke powerful emotion" and at the same time, "if you understand what he sings about you should feel anguish." Anguish is not a Delta motif; it's much too strong an emotion and quite destructive for Delta types.

At every point you are missing the crucial differences between delta and beta, ignoring delta aristocratic traits and misrepresenting beta ones. Either you are missing a huge portion of the delta psyche or you are not arguing in good faith. I don't know which.

People working as an efficient whole for the good of the whole is Te. Police forces are Te+Si. Even career military is Te+Si. Ti+Se is military for the sake of conquest. You are missing the difference between protective forces and aggressive forces, the difference between military conquest and career military, the difference between the armed conquest and private rebellion. All violence is not the same. You are arguing as if delta was only about Si+Ne but it is also about Te and Fi. Te and Fi are not relaxed and Te is extremely harsh. Your system of socionics appears to have delta as equal of Si and Ne and be lacking Te completely.

If all you see in Lindemann is an "angry man" then you have not looked at him. Do you not think that ESTjs have anger? Do you know anything about delta STs at all?

Your strong message is typical of all T. The repetition in the Rammstein music is dance beat. It is there to make the music easier to enjoy physically. Dance parties are not Beta.
Also, you will find on this forum at least a large number of personal accounts of experiences of ESTjs in which the ESTj continuously repeats a message, a matter which the persons describing the habit thought very annoying. You recognize Te as effectiveness yet you say that the most effective manner of speech is Ti+Se. Again, nonsense.

You grab onto the word anguish and the force of the word. Maybe I should have used angst instead. Vague negative ill feeling is what I meant. My choice of words is not evidence of the band itself.

Also, this is not about architecture, this is about Lindemann. Stop squirming.

You point out how there is master-slave symbolism in Rammstein yet you consistently ignore the fact that Rammstein portrays itself in the part of the slave while most metal bands portray themselves in the part of the master. All "aristocracy" socionic groups have imagery of strong social roles. Please remember this.

You are representing Rammstein as saying things that are not their message. They do not talk about fighting the law but accepting it as a negative factual circumstance while mocking it. Rammstein is not about resisting or fighting against something, but enduring something. Endurance is delta, hardship is delta, being your own individual is delta. This is Rammstein. Please stop lying and misrepresenting.

You seem to have turned from non-professional attitude to flat out lying and misleading. I don't understand why you want to do this since material on Rammstein is readily available for everyone to view and make their own opinions of. Stop turning this issue into a joke. This is not about your ego, this is about a factual issue.