but then who do i talk my mystic shit with? those men don't care about that. and then the women who do, i have to tiptoe around their feelers....yuck.Originally Posted by dbmmama
but then who do i talk my mystic shit with? those men don't care about that. and then the women who do, i have to tiptoe around their feelers....yuck.
i just posted this in another thread. i thought it was relevant here.
Do you have any types in mind for your sis? Or any that you'd definitely eliminate? Which of the intertype relations do you think describes your relationship?I would never consider you a smartass. You are way too into semantics and why people can't just "say what they mean because I'm not good at subtle social behavior/conversations", even when everyone else is joking around.
Even after you make a smartass comment, and a good one too, you immediately explain your comment to everyone, making a serious moment. I only see you make "smartass"ish comments and not explain yourself to men who like your butt that you don't feel threatened by
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
Oh boy, not a quick, easy reply. I have to think about it today and find some time to type back. (I have a 2 year old, 1 dog, 3 cats, and a hubby who all want mama's time!)
Yes I have believed logical and sensory from the start. She seems to reason her way through situations rather than feel her way forward. Agree about the VI. Also agree on positivist as she stresses that again and again.
(semantics, wordplays etc) seems to play a strong role as both sisters stress this is a strong characteristic with dbmmama.
Dbmmama are you sure about caretaker? The 'fasttalk' you describe with your hubby could also be aggressor - victim. Is your hubby an infantile? Anyway it sounds like you are a match in that sense.
seems to be a more private sphere she has difficulty talking about with people.
is also there but this is a weaker, confusing element it seems. Not something that is used with confidence.
INFp
If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)
Ok everyone, I'm her sister and this is what type I think she is:
INFj, INFj, INFj, INFj!!!!
no way!
"Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."
- Voltaire
Definitely. This is why I think ESE - her posts always have the message "I love life and am uber-enthusiastic about everything!"
@dbmmama: Why do you think you value Fi? AFAICT your life philosophy is 100% Fe.
the reasons my sis says INFj: (she doesn't feel the need to explain, but i do)
the MBTI has come out INFJ for many years. many of those descriptions fit me well.
she went through the whole listings of the elements in each position on wikisocion and without looking at the types(she can do that because she doesn't know what they each are) picked the position description that she believed fits me, overall in my life, not just how you guys see me not in person on a forum. almost all of them came up in the correct position for INFj. a couple were ISFj and a couple were ENFp.
we talked for a long time about how she and my mom both value Fe and in growing up I have always thought and my mom always told me there was something wrong with me, the way i'm "too serious" "be like your sister" so i have always "strived" to be like my sister while at the same time not liking certain things about her either.
the way she describes it to me makes me see INFj. but there are other things that still make me question it.
she believes people are static while having life experiences and i tend toward people changing and growing with their life experiences. she can easily see herself overall in her life while i see myself in whatever mood i am in at the moment. i forget what i'm like at any other time.
That in itself proves that you are not an ESFj, and it also proves that you are one of the four NF types. The fact that people on this forum don't understand that, and that they continue to suggest ESFj or even some ST types is an almost unbearable phenomenon. It's unacceptable. People should learn how to interpret empirical data correctly.
And here we have a strong indication of extraversion, especially the bolded part.she believes people are static while having life experiences and i tend toward people changing and growing with their life experiences. she can easily see herself overall in her life while i see myself in whatever mood i am in at the moment. i forget what i'm like at any other time.
Correct. And I am still somewhat dizzy (but still right in what I said of course).phaedrus just woke from sleep
i know that you're leaning your case toward ENFp. then explain to me why the descriptions for the elements in the different roles fit better for INFj than ENFp for me?
or shall i?
i can't. they all started getting jumbled again. i could see myself as other things too.....i know that you're leaning your case toward ENFp. then explain to me why the descriptions for the elements in the different roles fit better for INFj than ENFp for me?
or shall i?
I cannot emphasize enough how over the top accurate the below descriptions are from my perception of db. All I can say is this is what my sister has been and has always been like in my 35 years with her. Now whether these “words” from wikisocion (Rick Long) any of you believe are right or not is another question.
Fi, 1st, base function:
The individual sees reality primarily through static personal ethics and stable interpersonal bonds between individuals, including himself, where the status of such interpersonal bonds is determined by his personal ethics. The individual is very confident in evaluating the ethical or moral qualities, and their consistency, of other people. This makes the individual seem "judgmental" or "self-righteous" to people less so inclined. If he has difficulty in deciding the status of a personal relationship, he will take action to try to reach a conclusion but if that continues to elude him, he will regard the relationship as not worth it. His own sense of constancy in personal ethics and in his relationships with others is a very strong factor in his sense of self-worth. in this position implies the ability to almost instantly recognize whether someone is a friend or an enemy, whether they are demonstrating good will or ill will, and whether they are drawn to or repelled by the individual.
Ne, 2nd, creative function:
The individual likes to apply his analytical skills and insight to specific situations, relating them to the bigger picture. He also enjoys discussing idealized circumstances or what could be rather than what is. Consequently, he usually has high standards (even unreasonably so) for those around him. He tends to like people who have set high personal standards and yet need assistance reaching them.
Ti, 3rd, role function:
The individual is able to talk about things from a dispassionate academic or theoretical point of view for brief periods of time, but seems overly bookish when doing so and tends to grows tense. When feeling obliged to justify logically a personal decision taken for reasons determined by Fi, the individual attempts to do so but grows quickly annoyed especially if the inconsistency in the logical argument is pointed out. He then either explains the ethical motivation or avoids the issue altogether.
Se, 4th, vulnerable function:
The individual tends to overreact to aggressive or confrontational behavior, taking it as a personal threat when it may only be a knee-jerk reaction or the result of a bad mood. He tends to avoid intruding on others' space or engaging in behavior that may be perceived as coercive, and tries hard to handle his needs by being disciplined and well-prepared himself - rather than relying on others to do things for him. If these strategies fail, his efforts at dealing with the resulting conflict make him look actively pushy in a way that appears awkward and unnatural to others. This opens him up to painful criticism and feelings of weakness and helplessness. He is able to help others figure out their own morals and coach others about what they should do and why, but he is not prepared for others' active resistance or refusal to do as he says. In his mind, this would require him to put aside reason and good feelings and simply make the other person do what is necessary. This is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for him to do.
5th, suggestion function:
The individual is attracted to people seen as knowledgeable, as well as truthful and willing to share that knowledge, in matters seen as interesting and useful to him towards achieving productivity and efficiency. Reliable information rather than the finished analysis is what attracts the individual; facts and demonstrative explanations, not answers limited to the conclusions. For the same reason, he avoids people who are inclined to give out unreliable or simply untruthful information. He tends to neglect to think about the productivity of his actions and unconsciously relies on others to give him directions and advice about the best, most productive ways of doing things. He has difficulties measuring how much work he has done, whether it is sufficient, and how much it is actually worth. He admires people who are aware of the productivity of their actions and are always trying to do something rational and worthwhile.
Si, 6th, mobilizing function: The individual has difficulty producing pleasurable sensory experiences for others (and for himself as well), but likes to talk about pleasure, enjoyment, and relaxation, hoping that someone nearby will take the hint and take the lead. The individual tends to periodically get wound up and uptight and is generally unable to resolve these sensations himself. He needs someone to help him relax and take an internal look at whether he actually needs or enjoys what he is doing, and what might be the source of the tension that has built up. He can tend to extremes in this area, either depriving or indulging the senses to an unhealthy extent.
7th, ignoring function:The individual is perfectly able to integrate in a group emotional situations, such as people having fun and trading jokes, and sustain that for a long period of time. He is also usually adept at promoting such an atmosphere himself. However, he sees no point in doing so if his own inner emotional state does not prompt him towards that, especially if he does not feel as having positive private feelings towards the other people involved. He is aware of the need to keep a "polite façade" in certain social situations even in the presence of people he personally dislikes or during periods of negative inner emotions, but he refuses to actively attempt to integrate in, or promote, a positive external emotional atmosphere in such occasions. His disinclination for doing so increases along with his feelings of closeness with the individuals present.
Ni, 8th, demonstrative function:
The individual is quite adept at following discussions on the developments of present trends into the future and at contributing to them on occasion if he feels so inclined, but he does not take that as seriously compared to investigating possibilities in the areas he is interested in at present. He usually dismisses supernatural claims as being silly, wishful thinking, unless they happen to be related to the very specific religion he feels inclined to believe in and which he may be inclined to make part of his leisure activities.
Not necessarily. I am much more certain that you are not some other types. You are definitely not an ST type for example. And there is no strong support for any of the other type suggestions (besides ENFp).
If you can't decide between EP an IJ temperament, then you are an idiot. And since we both know that you are not an idiot, you are in fact able to decide which of those two temperaments is definitely not you. The type that corresponds to that temperament (= the temperament you can rule out for sure as impossible) is then a type you cannot be (ENFp or INFj).then explain to me why the descriptions for the elements in the different roles fit better for INFj than ENFp for me?
or shall i?
So, are you not an INFj, or are you not an ENFp?
thank you. i appreciate you saying i am not an idiot because when it comes to this stuff i sure feel like it. i am far from an idiot in the things that are my "things."
so, EP or IJ huh? hmmmmm. well, you say which one am in not.
ok, when it comes to my relationships i am IJ all the way, an Etype 1. when it comes to the rest of my life i am EP all the way, an Etype 7. and my relationships are the most important things to me. but when i'm not dealing with or interacting with my primary people, i am crazy impulsive extraverted.
it is not a black and white thing here. i am both. it just depends on what i am focusing on at the time.
EP:
flexible
mobile
impulsive, shifting from apparent inactivity to bursts of energy, often several times a day, showing impatience during them
walk is energetic but "cat-like"
often seems optimistic and open-minded
entertains people easily and naturally
inclined to fidget when forced to remain inactive for long periods
EPs are both static and irrational, so they perceive reality as mostly not changing, and when it does, it's in abrupt "leaps" from one state to another. An EP is bothered by the lack of change, especially as seen through his leading function, since his personal preference is for change. That makes him impulsive, with sudden bursts of action, energy, or even just thought, as he tries to get his perceptions "moving".
As extroverts, EPs tend to be feel that it is up to them to initiate contacts with other people, and EPs in particular tend to feel quite natural in that role.
IJ:
calm, balanced and inert
"unflappable"
rigid but not very fast gait
more reactive than active
little inclination to fidget during long periods of inactivity
IJs are both static and rational, so they see reality as mostly not changing - but when it does, it's in abrupt "leaps" from one state to another. An IJ draws inner stability from a stable reality, especially as seen through his leading function. That makes him confident that things will probably remain as they are despite what he sees as minor disturbances; periods of clear upheaval are very disturbing and the individual is anxious that things will "settle down" one way or the other soon enough.
As introverts, IJs tend to be calm and relaxed about initiating relationships with other people, mostly assuming that others will take the initiative, but will be more inclined to try to make sure a relationship is maintained once established.
with these definitions i am definitely more EP overall. i've just been such a shy, self conscious, introspective one that i've always tested as an introvert. it wasn't until recently that i even realized the concept that i could be an extratim and just was a shy one. and that's only because i'm not shy anymore.
IP:
relaxed
go-with-the-flow
finds it easy to spend long periods of time in no activity, or at very low levels of energy
movements are flexible, unhurried
little inclination towards fidgetiness when having to remain inactive for longer periods
IPs are both dynamic and irrational, so they see reality as in continuous, gradual, often imperceptible change. An IP is soothed by this, seeing reality through his leading function. This leads to a relaxed inclination to take things as they come and adapt to them.
As introverts, IPs tend to be relaxed and somewhat passive about initiating relationships with other people, mostly assuming that others will take the initiative.
this is both my hubby and sis.
EJ:
proactive
restless
difficult to relax unless tired
walk tends to be quick-paced and "purposeful", as well as stiff
"calmly energetic" with few intense variations in the level of energy during the day
inclined to fidget when forced to remain inactive for long periods
EJs are both dynamic and rational, so they see reality as in continuous, gradual, often imperceptible change. At the same time, an EJ has his own views of what reality "should" be. This inclines him to be quick to take action, normally using his leading function, in order to make sure things will remain, or become, as they should be, before change can get too far.
As extroverts, EJs tend to feel that it is up to them to initiate contacts with other people, whether in the context of establishing or maintaining a relationship. They will not necessarily act on that, though, and sometimes wish others would take over this role.
this sounds like me too.
False dilemma
I have a really hard time seeing dbmmama as a "Humanist/Empath" or a "Psychologist". She is nothing like any INFj I know, and I suspect I am closer to ENFp than dbmmama is
INFj's live by empathy and learning how to raise your kids the bookroute is not exactly a resounding vote of confidence for empathic feelings. I am not saying dbmmama is not empathic but empathy certainly does not seem to be a strength with her as it is with the above types.
When dbmmama says it all gets jumbled to her it reminds me of the difficulty of typing Jessica. Jess used to say similar things. If dbmmama is indeed a caretaker it makes more sense to me if she is an ISTp and her hubby ENFp.
INFp
If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)
I would if I could see you working and acting in your normal real life situations. Then it would be rather easy. Now I have to rely on how you describe your own behaviour, and the problem is that you don't describe it in a consistent way.
Your natural temperament has nothing to do with you relationships. It has everything to do with your energy rhythm, your mood, etc.
So, it sounds so far as though you have an EP temperament. Who could have guessed that?
But irrelevant in relation to the problem which temperament you have.
Which is not typical of IJ types. Once again you describe yourself and come across as a rather clear example of an extravert. Who could have guessed that?
The evidence for that claim does not seem to exist. So far everything you have said here suggests EP temperament and not INFj.
Shall we conclude that you have an IJ temperament and that you are most likely an INFj then? Who could have guessed that?with these definitions i am definitely more EP overall. i've just been such a shy, self conscious, introspective one that i've always tested as an introvert. it wasn't until recently that i even realized the concept that i could be an extratim and just was a shy one. and that's only because i'm not shy anymore.
Premise 1: You are "definitely more EP overall."EJ:
proactive
restless
difficult to relax unless tired
walk tends to be quick-paced and "purposeful", as well as stiff
"calmly energetic" with few intense variations in the level of energy during the day
inclined to fidget when forced to remain inactive for long periods
EJs are both dynamic and rational, so they see reality as in continuous, gradual, often imperceptible change. At the same time, an EJ has his own views of what reality "should" be. This inclines him to be quick to take action, normally using his leading function, in order to make sure things will remain, or become, as they should be, before change can get too far.
As extroverts, EJs tend to feel that it is up to them to initiate contacts with other people, whether in the context of establishing or maintaining a relationship. They will not necessarily act on that, though, and sometimes wish others would take over this role.
this sounds like me too.
Premise 2: EJ "sounds like me too."
Conclusion: You have an IJ temperament and you are an INFj or you have either an EP or an EJ temperament and are therefore not an INFj. So, are you or are you not an INFj ......
To me all the word descriptions, function descriptions, the reasons she does things, etc. she is an INFj, with the fidgety, manic nature of an EP temperment. So whatever that equats to, there it is.
If I understand you correctly here, you are suggesting that she is an INFj with an EP temperament. But that is not a possibility, because it is impossible for an INFj to have an EP temperament. Every single INFj in the entire world has an IJ temperament, so either she is not an INFj or she does not have an EP temperament.To me all the word descriptions, function descriptions, the reasons she does things, etc. she is an INFj, with the fidgety, manic nature of an EP temperment. So whatever that equats to, there it is.
Not necessarily, but the evidence still does support ENFp more than any other type. I don't know how many times I have pointed that out to people here, and I don't know why I should have to do that. You are not a bunch of retards, are you? Every person who has a basic understanding of the types in Socionics must agree with me here. There are only two types that can come into serious consideration (based on the available information), and those two types are the ENFp and the ENFj. The case for ENFp is stronger than the case for ENFj, and every other type is extremely unlikely -- unless dbmmama has given us a very misleading and incorrect picture of what she is really like.
That doesn't tell us much about her socionic temperament.
I probably make as least as many blunt objective statements as she does. Does that make people perceive me as opinionated? Maybe, I don't know. But does it tell us anything about which temperament dbmmama or I have? Very little in fact, almost nothing.
Ok, you guys, words cannot describe how hard it is to get db on video without her knowing it! Take a look at the first second of this clip. I know its only a second, but can you see her in that moment? This is the db I try to describe to you all that I see all the time. Did you see how serious and exacting she was and this was at a party. Does this clip help at all?
http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/l...cture050-1.flv
here another one:
http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/l...Picture054.flv
BTW, she is going to kill me for showing these!!!!!
wow she sure did change her face as soon as she found out she was being filmed.
"Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."
- Voltaire
i am laughing so hard and i have to be quiet because the baby is asleep next to me!!!
you bitch!!
yeah, that was what was so funny!
Hey Phaedrus, DUH!!
Wow, that looked like very instinctive Fe reactions
You definitely came across differently in those vids than the mental image I had of you from before. Phaedrus may well be correct in typing you as ENFp. :wink:
INFp
If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)
what you're sayng is contradictory. instinctive Fe and ENFp? which is it? Fe or Fi(ENFp)?Wow, that looked like very instinctive Fe reactions
You definitely came across differently in those vids than the mental image I had of you from before. Phaedrus may well be correct in typing you as ENFp. :wink:
lol!
Those were very short videos though, maybe you could make some videos for us.
i didn't know i was being filmed. i thought she was just taking a picture. i "learned" to smile for the fucking camera or i look like a weirdo.
that's why i was freaked out in the second one that she turned the damn thing on without my consent. i don't like to have to "act" or "smile" for a camera when *I* don't feel like or want to. i don't like having to smile on "cue." i only do it now because i know the pics look better later.
K, I feel better about you now. I was gonna say "i hate that shit!"
"Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."
- Voltaire
Fe is a strong unconscious element in ENFp's.
Quote: Function 8 - demonstrative function. This is the strongest of the unconscious functions. As a result, it is so deeply rooted into the psyche that one is usually not consciously aware of its existence or utilization. Individuals will often identify their demonstrative function mistakenly when discussing 'who they are.'
INFp
If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)
thank you!
that makes sense.
all i know is i don't hate you. yet.
"Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."
- Voltaire
She also comes across slightly differently than the mental image I had of her ... almost like a possible INFj ... But the videos are much too short to have any real value as a source of information. The evidence is still inconclusive.
you are so funny.
I concur lol
INFp
If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)
yeah, I wish I had more for you...here's one more that is only a few seconds
I want to tell you guys, she had just worked out, sweaty, no makeup, still had her "4th baby" fat on her, etc. This is not how she always looks.
http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/l...Picture053.flv
If I have time, I could post some childhood pics....
i wasn't scared, i was annoyed. yeah i would have lunged at you! the fact that you think i was scared is interesting in and of itself. inside i was thinking "get the fucking camera off me already!"yeah, I wish I had more for you...here's one more that is only a few seconds
I want to tell you guys, she had just worked out, sweaty, no makeup, still had her "4th baby" fat on her, etc. This is not how she always looks.
http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/l...Picture053.flv
If I have time, I could post some childhood pics....
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