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ISTj/ISFj-INFp relationship and love
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Last edited by calenwen; 01-04-2009 at 04:03 AM.
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
John Muir
I'm guessing you've told him that you loved him already?
He may think that saying I love you is a really big deal and that it would push the relationship forward too much or more than he's ready to go. So my advice would be (more as a female than an IEI) to either make your peace with it and get yourself truly okay with him not saying it and continue on as usual. Or tell him that you want to start seeing other people. Why should you be tied down to someone, and unhappy? I know that sounds simplistic but if you continue this road with this nagging bit of unhappiness, he's going to feel it whether you want him to or not. He'll sense it and it'll be a strain on the relationship.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Why do you want to hear it? Saying it would mean absolutely nothing, imo.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Originally Posted by Gilly
Exactly. Calenwen, You have all these other indicators that others would kill for and you're stressing out over him saying it?
"Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."
- Voltaire
I need verbal affirmations. Without them I'm insecure and full of doubts. I hate that I'm this way, but....
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
John Muir
Then she's in the wrong relationship.
That is a good idea.
"Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."
- Voltaire
I agree with this. When I was in my early 20s I definitely needed to hear it. And frankly, I'm not sure I could be married to someone even now who didn't say it once in awhile (my ESE husband says it several times per day). I have a couple of friends whose spouses never say it even though they show them in many ways that they love them and one of my friends is pretty sad about that. In all other ways their marriage is good. But she needs to hear it. (she's LII and he's ILE) Anyway, my point being that if you need to hear it, you should make sure you end up with someone who can say it verbally. Sounds like he's not ready. I'm sorry.
I was friends with an SEI once who absolutely could not verbalize any of his feelings. That's just the way he was. He could show you with his actions but he could not come right out and say anything. Based on some things he told me about his marriage, he was the same way with his wife. And if something bothered him, he would totally clam up. Man there is just no way I could live with someone like that. No way. You'd be forever guessing, forever tip-toeing around, wondering. gah, a nightmare.
IEI-Fe 4w3
What makes you think he doesn't?
Retired from posting and drawing Social Security. E-mail or PM to contact.
I pity your souls
Yes.
He doesn't say it. I would be inclined to think that he does and just doesn't know it - he's rather confused about his emotions. But alas, he has said that he does not, leaving me with naught but the fragile promise of "I will." Ha.
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
John Muir
That he does not know?
Rather than just point-blank asking him if he loves you (which might seem a bit out of the blue), you might just talk to him about it and explain what's going on - maybe he has no idea you've been worried about it.
Retired from posting and drawing Social Security. E-mail or PM to contact.
I pity your souls
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Last edited by calenwen; 01-04-2009 at 04:04 AM.
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
John Muir
...Me? Aggressive?
Oh dear. I'm sorry. I hope that's all it is....
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
John Muir
Not expressing your love by words is a common thing in INFP's.
Although you would expect this Idealist type to express his feeling about a friend often, they just don't.
It's no big deal. He loves you.
No offense, but you have to have some pride. If I said that to someone and they didn't say it back...BYE. I don't buy the "i'm too scared to say it" BS. If you loved someone, you wouldn't want to screw it up by leaving them hanging like that.
This sounds EXTREMELY insecure, and VERY UNNATTRACTIVE.
Let me tell you, there is nothing less attractive then a woman thinking this way, and although these short term fixes suggested may get you peace of mind in THIS situation, dozens will resurface like it.
So instead of putting a band-aid over YOUR problem, try and reassess why you are being so needy in terms of his love. This has nothing to do with him, but more about you and your unhappiness. A couple of words from him should not dictate how you feel about him or anyone.
To say you are going to toss a year because of your own insecurity is really ridiculous. Alot of the blame youre putting is on him, as if his actions cause your doubts. ITS ALL YOU, AND IT WILL ALWAYS BE YOU.
With every relationship.
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" isand not
This is a good point. I'm not sure all of the blame is on you (I don't really know your situation well), but sometimes a lot of this kind of stuff is mostly in your head, and it requires taking a step back to see that. (I know this from experience.)
Retired from posting and drawing Social Security. E-mail or PM to contact.
I pity your souls
Hm. I'll go brush up on INFjs.Ok I just came to this thread and read all of it. When I am hopelessly in love I sing it out high and low and give a LOT of attention (Fe and otherwise) and also want a lot of verbal feedback (as others here also noted they need). I am not so good at reading more action oriented feedback unless there is a constant dialogue what is going on (depends on the action ofc heh
My first thought was that he is not INFp. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt ofc as you point out chances are he is simply confused about where to take things. Still not admitting his true emotions is Very untypical of INFp's. INFp's are supposed to be emotionally in tune and honest about their emotions.
It wouldn't surprise me if he is INFj and you are in a relationship of Benefit. Just a thought.
Benefit?
It's not the words. It's what is behind them.
I hardly think it's "needy" to desire to be loved. Isn't that what relationships are about?
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
John Muir
I see what you're saying, but at the same time, you have stated that he already does stuff to show you he loves you. So it IS the words, since that isn't enough for you.
BTW, SAYING he loves you won't do shit.
the problem is, you can't recognize love when you see it.
You're going to keep having these doubts, regardless. It's just gonna be some new thing.
& No, relationships are bout GIVING love, not BEING loved. Wanting to be LOVED, is the result of a void IN YOURSELF, that you USE others to fill.
Kind of like toys.
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is
No, he actually does not love me. Or at least, he does not think he does.
Well, all I know is what I know, and I know that I could never be in a long-term relationship with someone that did not love me. It really has nothing to do with the words.
And if it's a void, I think it's a pretty common one.
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
John Muir
Ah, this is very well said. Thanks for the input.I don't know... (it was Pirate's post that prompted this post)... If someone in a relationship can't say they love the one they're with, it sort of tells me there's something wrong...
I mean, sometimes people don't say things in words but you can tell in everything they do, so sometimes words aren't needed. There are other ways to say "I love you" than in words. So I can understand this...
BUT, this doesn't sound like the case here... it sounds like he doesn't know if he loves her or not... and that is why she feels "insecure."
I mean sometimes people are in different places in life and it becomes a matter of how long can you freeze yourself and your own progression waiting for them to meet you where you are? And if you do, will it even matter? Will all the time and suffering spent waiting even be worth it? Sometimes there are moments where a path needs to be chosen and a decision needs to be made... well, except how one feels usually isn't a decision.
Anyway, I agree that talking about it is the way to go. I don't know what else though.
ETA: I could see myself not saying "I love you" at first but I would always be trying to express it. I don't seem to say that right away. But if I was being that way and the other person asked I'd probably get this shy look on my face and try to say how I felt. It might be hard, but I would be trying. But I have issues.
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
John Muir
Heh, good post Loki. Very good post.
I forget sometimes that certain advice is more applicable in terms of males then females, but you brought up some really great points.
If calu senses a struggle of that sort, then I can see how that could evoke certain feelings. However, it's the feeling it arose that I dislike.
I wrote the responses below before I read Lokis, in light of that I may have written it abit differently.
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@ CHIBIKEBA
Attraction the sense of the physical is different for everyone. However, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about attraction through behavior, which is universal. Needyness triggers a negative biological response.
Also, I'm not saying to NOT express your feelings!
On the other hand, insecurities that arise from lack of YOUR OWN SELF-IMAGE are not something to be blaming someone for. This is bullshit, and one of the reasons why we have so much violence in the world.
Her emotions are the result of her own thoughts and feelings. They are completely under our control.
And, hey, you know what? You are right. It did touch a part of me, but I'm not taking out my anger. On the contrary, I post because I don't want the OP to fall into the trap. I've known many women who are quite close to me deal with abuse because of this.
The bottom line is this: if he already isn't acting how you want him to be(providing you happiness/etc) then he isn't the person for you.
He won't change. You want love from someone who isn't there. If his way doesn't show love, you should find someone else whose being does.
This 'quest' for love is one many people never find. Check the divorce rate.
Oh and, its no one's fault if their born sensitive, cant show feelings etc.
But it is NOT an excuse for them not to doing something about it. You're conditions should not limit you.
Also, regarding your last statement..
I dont believe your perceptions should be at the whim of another individual. Been there, not a fun place.
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& JUJU
heh
Yeah, I may have came out abit harsh, eh?
But its only because I really do care for anyone in this position. And I do agree that all her questions are legitimate, but the focus IME, should be inwards instead of outwards.
And I like how you view the situation in terms of her caring about the relationship, YES, that is very attractive. I couldn't agree more!
But, I don't see the OP motives so much as 'caring for the relationship' as much as for soothing her own insecurities(which isn't his problem).
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Edit:
Just in typing this, I feel that the only way talking about something would help the relationship, is if the other person is being out of character. If they are in line with what you know of them, and still unaccept it, there really is nothing to discuss.
Relationships, in my view, should always be about adding to someones life, rather then being someones life.
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Love should come naturally, and be expressed naturally. I see the value in talking about it, but again it seems as if the issue is being forced. Talking about this seems good in theory, and you might even find that there is a problem and resolve it. However, I feel as if the other person should have enough strength on their own to do this without my help.(those have to do more so with my standards then anything. I hold relationships as something very special, so I dont take it lightly) . Usually, relationships crumble if both are dependant on one another. In this sense, I think both people should be self-sufficient in a relationship.
Also, some have typed me as ENFJ, but it was dismissed. Theres a thread about it, actually if you search my post history it should be on the first page(out of like 4, LOL). Would appreciate your insight if you ever take a look.
Last edited by thePirate; 07-15-2008 at 10:13 PM.
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is
From the Gulenko site [http://www.socionics.com/rel/bn.htm]. I think he has a better description of Benefit than what is on wiki - so I used that one here. Apparently relationships of Benefit are one of the most common among married couples:
Relations of Benefit between psychological ("personality") types
These relations are asymmetrical. One partner, called the Benefactor, is always in a more favourable position in respect to the other partner who is known as Beneficiary.
The Beneficiary thinks of the Benefactor as an interesting and meaningful person, usually over-evaluating them in the beginning. The Beneficiary can be impressed and delighted by their partner's behaviour, manners, thoughts and their ability to easily deal with things that the Beneficiary conceives as complicated. When partners are together, the Beneficiary involuntarily starts to ingratiate themselves with the Benefactor, trying to please them without any obvious reason. In the worst cases this starts from little things and then becomes bigger until the Beneficiary realises the foolishness of their situation.
The Beneficiary can see the weakness of the Benefactor, wishing to help their partner to strengthen themselves. Because the strongest point of the Beneficiary is the weak and unconscious point of the Benefactor, the Beneficiary is convinced that they are able to help. However, when the Beneficiary tries to help, the Benefactor usually refuses the help without any good explanation. The Beneficiary usually listens to every word the Benefactor says but there is no feedback, the Benefactor can not hear the Beneficiary. This may be sometimes unpleasant and even irritating for the Beneficiary.
The Benefactor accepts the Beneficiary as somebody who is lower in rank or social position and often undervalues them in the beginning. The reason for this is that the Benefactor feels that the Beneficiary needs something from them, that special something that only the Benefactor can provide. Therefore the Benefactor naturally finds themselves in an advanced position in respect to the Beneficiary, but are at the same time willing to encourage and take care of the Beneficiary.
Relations of Benefit may appear even and conflict free. Usually it is the Benefactor who initiates the contact. Partners can even feel some kind of spiritual connection between them. However, relations last only as long as the Benefactor has something to give and the Beneficiary has need of it. If this major condition is no longer fulfilled, relations enter quite an unpleasant stage of their development. The Beneficiary may begin ignoring the Benefactor completely or they may start to accentuate too many of the Benefactors inability, provoking arguments and quarrels. Finally, when the Benefactor is in a superior position to the Beneficiary, it can work quite well, but not when it is the other way round!
INFp
If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)
I understand where you're coming from here but believe that your position is a little extreme.
Where I disagree with you is that it's not "all about her," and her "insecurities," as you put it... It's about him as well--after all, there are two ppl in the relationship, and in this case, one (he) isn't providing certain elements that the other (she) would appreciate... Which begs the question: why? Not only 'why' are these elements important to her--but also, why are they important enough to him to never say those words?
She explained her reasons in this thread--they're perfectly legitimate... Wanting to know his reasons--that's perfectly legitimate.
You say that she's placing "blame" and call it "unattractive" and I couldn't disagree more... It shows that she cares about the relationship, and wants to improve it... Very attractive qualities, IMO (personal, obviously.) Also, I don't see where she's blaming him--she's just wondering what to do. Peace.
P.S. Pirate, you ever consider ESFp or ENFj? Some Se type? Se>Si, Fe>Fi?
ChibiKeba, I love you. And JuJu too.
Thanks for understanding.
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
John Muir
Before I read any further, I'll just add that NOT telling someone I love that I actually love them isn't typical for me personally. Usually, this kind of thing overwhelms me and I have horrible trouble keeping it to myself.
I can certainly understand that some people aren't comfortable "vocalizing" their love. But if you are the kind of person who wants to actually hear the "L" word (and I am one) or feel bolstered with occasional identifiable expressions of affection, a person who typically keeps those feelings to himself will never really satisfy you.
socio: INFp - IEI
ennea: 4w5 sp/sx
**********
yeah that's the first thing that i thought too; doesn't sound like typical infp behavior. but you guys are on the young side like Chibi says. a lot of males might not want to express strong emotions at this age....the implications are too heavy.
why not just say: soooo how are you feeling about us? where do you think we are headed?
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
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