ISTj/ISFj-INFp relationship and love

[thePirate]

Hm. I'll go brush up on INFjs.
Benefit?



It's not the words. It's what is behind them.
I hardly think it's "needy" to desire to be loved. Isn't that what relationships are about?

I see what you're saying, but at the same time, you have stated that he already does stuff to show you he loves you. So it IS the words, since that isn't enough for you.

BTW, SAYING he loves you won't do shit.

the problem is, you can't recognize love when you see it.

You're going to keep having these doubts, regardless. It's just gonna be some new thing.


& No, relationships are bout GIVING love, not BEING loved. Wanting to be LOVED, is the result of a void IN YOURSELF, that you USE others to fill.

Kind of like toys.

[calenwen]

I see what you're saying, but at the same time, you have stated that he already does stuff to show you he loves you. So it IS the words, since that isn't enough for you.

BTW, SAYING he loves you won't do shit.

the problem is, you can't recognize love when you see it.

You're going to keep having these doubts, regardless. It's just gonna be some new thing.


& No, relationships are bout GIVING love, not BEING loved. Wanting to be LOVED, is the result of a void IN YOURSELF, that you USE others to fill.

Kind of like toys.

No, he actually does not love me. Or at least, he does not think he does.
Well, all I know is what I know, and I know that I could never be in a long-term relationship with someone that did not love me. It really has nothing to do with the words.
And if it's a void, I think it's a pretty common one.

[JuJu]

This sounds EXTREMELY insecure, and VERY UNNATTRACTIVE.


Let me tell you, there is nothing less attractive then a woman thinking this way, and although these short term fixes suggested may get you peace of mind in THIS situation, dozens will resurface like it.

So instead of putting a band-aid over YOUR problem, try and reassess why you are being so needy in terms of his love. This has nothing to do with him, but more about you and your unhappiness. A couple of words from him should not dictate how you feel about him or anyone.

To say you are going to toss a year because of your own insecurity is really ridiculous. Alot of the blame youre putting is on him, as if his actions cause your doubts. ITS ALL YOU, AND IT WILL ALWAYS BE YOU.

With every relationship.

I understand where you're coming from here but believe that your position is a little extreme.

Where I disagree with you is that it's not "all about her," and her "insecurities," as you put it... It's about him as well--after all, there are two ppl in the relationship, and in this case, one (he) isn't providing certain elements that the other (she) would appreciate... Which begs the question: why? Not only 'why' are these elements important to her--but also, why are they important enough to him to never say those words?

She explained her reasons in this thread--they're perfectly legitimate... Wanting to know his reasons--that's perfectly legitimate.

You say that she's placing "blame" and call it "unattractive" and I couldn't disagree more... It shows that she cares about the relationship, and wants to improve it... Very attractive qualities, IMO (personal, obviously.) Also, I don't see where she's blaming him--she's just wondering what to do. Peace.

P.S. Pirate, you ever consider ESFp or ENFj? Some Se type? Se>Si, Fe>Fi?

[calenwen]

ChibiKeba, I love you. And JuJu too.
Thanks for understanding.

[Wittmont]

Hm. I'll go brush up on INFjs.
Benefit?

From the Gulenko site [http://www.socionics.com/rel/bn.htm]. I think he has a better description of Benefit than what is on wiki - so I used that one here. Apparently relationships of Benefit are one of the most common among married couples:


Relations of Benefit between psychological ("personality") types

These relations are asymmetrical. One partner, called the Benefactor, is always in a more favourable position in respect to the other partner who is known as Beneficiary.

The Beneficiary thinks of the Benefactor as an interesting and meaningful person, usually over-evaluating them in the beginning. The Beneficiary can be impressed and delighted by their partner's behaviour, manners, thoughts and their ability to easily deal with things that the Beneficiary conceives as complicated. When partners are together, the Beneficiary involuntarily starts to ingratiate themselves with the Benefactor, trying to please them without any obvious reason. In the worst cases this starts from little things and then becomes bigger until the Beneficiary realises the foolishness of their situation.

The Beneficiary can see the weakness of the Benefactor, wishing to help their partner to strengthen themselves. Because the strongest point of the Beneficiary is the weak and unconscious point of the Benefactor, the Beneficiary is convinced that they are able to help. However, when the Beneficiary tries to help, the Benefactor usually refuses the help without any good explanation. The Beneficiary usually listens to every word the Benefactor says but there is no feedback, the Benefactor can not hear the Beneficiary. This may be sometimes unpleasant and even irritating for the Beneficiary.

The Benefactor accepts the Beneficiary as somebody who is lower in rank or social position and often undervalues them in the beginning. The reason for this is that the Benefactor feels that the Beneficiary needs something from them, that special something that only the Benefactor can provide. Therefore the Benefactor naturally finds themselves in an advanced position in respect to the Beneficiary, but are at the same time willing to encourage and take care of the Beneficiary.

Relations of Benefit may appear even and conflict free. Usually it is the Benefactor who initiates the contact. Partners can even feel some kind of spiritual connection between them. However, relations last only as long as the Benefactor has something to give and the Beneficiary has need of it. If this major condition is no longer fulfilled, relations enter quite an unpleasant stage of their development. The Beneficiary may begin ignoring the Benefactor completely or they may start to accentuate too many of the Benefactors inability, provoking arguments and quarrels. Finally, when the Benefactor is in a superior position to the Beneficiary, it can work quite well, but not when it is the other way round!

[calenwen]

I don't know... (it was Pirate's post that prompted this post)... If someone in a relationship can't say they love the one they're with, it sort of tells me there's something wrong...

I mean, sometimes people don't say things in words but you can tell in everything they do, so sometimes words aren't needed. There are other ways to say "I love you" than in words. So I can understand this...

BUT, this doesn't sound like the case here... it sounds like he doesn't know if he loves her or not... and that is why she feels "insecure."

I mean sometimes people are in different places in life and it becomes a matter of how long can you freeze yourself and your own progression waiting for them to meet you where you are? And if you do, will it even matter? Will all the time and suffering spent waiting even be worth it? Sometimes there are moments where a path needs to be chosen and a decision needs to be made... well, except how one feels usually isn't a decision.

Anyway, I agree that talking about it is the way to go. I don't know what else though.

ETA: I could see myself not saying "I love you" at first but I would always be trying to express it. I don't seem to say that right away. But if I was being that way and the other person asked I'd probably get this shy look on my face and try to say how I felt. It might be hard, but I would be trying. But I have issues. Once I was confident the words wouldn't do the relationship in then I would feel much better.

Ah, this is very well said. Thanks for the input.

[thePirate]

Heh, good post Loki. Very good post.

I forget sometimes that certain advice is more applicable in terms of males then females, but you brought up some really great points.

If calu senses a struggle of that sort, then I can see how that could evoke certain feelings. However, it's the feeling it arose that I dislike.

I wrote the responses below before I read Lokis, in light of that I may have written it abit differently.

------------
@ CHIBIKEBA


Attraction the sense of the physical is different for everyone. However, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about attraction through behavior, which is universal. Needyness triggers a negative biological response.

Also, I'm not saying to NOT express your feelings!

On the other hand, insecurities that arise from lack of YOUR OWN SELF-IMAGE are not something to be blaming someone for. This is bullshit, and one of the reasons why we have so much violence in the world.

Her emotions are the result of her own thoughts and feelings. They are completely under our control.

And, hey, you know what? You are right. It did touch a part of me, but I'm not taking out my anger. On the contrary, I post because I don't want the OP to fall into the trap. I've known many women who are quite close to me deal with abuse because of this.


The bottom line is this: if he already isn't acting how you want him to be(providing you happiness/etc) then he isn't the person for you.

He won't change. You want love from someone who isn't there. If his way doesn't show love, you should find someone else whose being does.

This 'quest' for love is one many people never find. Check the divorce rate.

Oh and, its no one's fault if their born sensitive, cant show feelings etc.

But it is NOT an excuse for them not to doing something about it. You're conditions should not limit you.

Also, regarding your last statement..

I dont believe your perceptions should be at the whim of another individual. Been there, not a fun place.

---------------
& JUJU

heh

Yeah, I may have came out abit harsh, eh?

But its only because I really do care for anyone in this position. And I do agree that all her questions are legitimate, but the focus IME, should be inwards instead of outwards.

And I like how you view the situation in terms of her caring about the relationship, YES, that is very attractive. I couldn't agree more!

But, I don't see the OP motives so much as 'caring for the relationship' as much as for soothing her own insecurities(which isn't his problem).

------
Edit:

Just in typing this, I feel that the only way talking about something would help the relationship, is if the other person is being out of character. If they are in line with what you know of them, and still unaccept it, there really is nothing to discuss.

Relationships, in my view, should always be about adding to someones life, rather then being someones life.
-----

Love should come naturally, and be expressed naturally. I see the value in talking about it, but again it seems as if the issue is being forced. Talking about this seems good in theory, and you might even find that there is a problem and resolve it. However, I feel as if the other person should have enough strength on their own to do this without my help.(those have to do more so with my standards then anything. I hold relationships as something very special, so I dont take it lightly) . Usually, relationships crumble if both are dependant on one another. In this sense, I think both people should be self-sufficient in a relationship.

Also, some have typed me as ENFJ, but it was dismissed. Theres a thread about it, actually if you search my post history it should be on the first page(out of like 4, LOL). Would appreciate your insight if you ever take a look.

[jessica129]

Something about this sounds very un-IEI'ish. All the IEI's i've known are more than willing to express their feelings when they feel comfortable. But anyway. If you do talk to him about it, be prepared for him to pull away even more for a little while and ultimatums never, ever work...if you want to save this, don't go that route. They will run. Personally, telling someone I love them would never even enter my thoughts unless they said it first and were obviously waiting for my response in return. He may not know. This is the reason I never say it first.

[redbaron]

Something about this sounds very un-IEI'ish. All the IEI's i've known are more than willing to express their feelings when they feel comfortable. But anyway. If you do talk to him about it, be prepared for him to pull away even more for a little while and ultimatums never, ever work...if you want to save this, don't go that route. They will run. Personally, telling someone I love them would never even enter my thoughts unless they said it first and were obviously waiting for my response in return. He may not know. This is the reason I never say it first.

No offense but if you had read the whole thread you'd know that he does know because she's talked to him about it. But anyway, yeah there's something a bit non-IEIish about it, I agree. Ultimatums given in an angry, demanding way never work. However, there is a way of confidently stating what you need and being willing to walk away if the person is unable to meet you half way.

[jessica129]

Well, in that case, dump him. Easier said than done but if you really loved someone, no matter how hard it is for them to say it, they'd say it back. Life is too short for this.

[redbaron]

Well, in that case, dump him. Easier said than done but if you really loved someone, no matter how hard it is for them to say it, they'd say it back. Life is too short for this.

QFT

[calenwen]

Well, in that case, dump him. Easier said than done but if you really loved someone, no matter how hard it is for them to say it, they'd say it back. Life is too short for this.

I wish it were that cut-and-dry for me.

[Jarno]

Not expressing your love by words is a common thing in INFP's.

Although you would expect this Idealist type to express his feeling about a friend often, they just don't.

It's no big deal. He loves you.

[jessica129]

No offense, but you have to have some pride. If I said that to someone and they didn't say it back...BYE. I don't buy the "i'm too scared to say it" BS. If you loved someone, you wouldn't want to screw it up by leaving them hanging like that.

[aka-kitsune]

I mean, is this common for INFps? Should I give him more time? Or am I just not the right person or something...?

I'm out of ideas.

Before I read any further, I'll just add that NOT telling someone I love that I actually love them isn't typical for me personally. Usually, this kind of thing overwhelms me and I have horrible trouble keeping it to myself.

I can certainly understand that some people aren't comfortable "vocalizing" their love. But if you are the kind of person who wants to actually hear the "L" word (and I am one) or feel bolstered with occasional identifiable expressions of affection, a person who typically keeps those feelings to himself will never really satisfy you.

[thePirate]

Behavioral attraction is universal? I think I would have to disagree with that argument.
Plus I saw nothing "needy" about her behavior in the first place so your original comment just had no merit. Juju worded her behavior the best, stating that she cares about the relationship and wants it to improve. That's the impression I got as well. I think what the problem is here is the perception of behavior, you viewed what she did as needy and thus had a negative reaction to it whereas me and several other forum members saw nothing of the sort.



Where'd you get that? I never said you stated one shouldn't express their feelings.



When did...anyone state this? And how is worrying about the health of a relationship equate to a personal insecurity?



Emotions are the results of...feelings? Thoughts I get, but feelings? Qua? Those are both the same thing unless you're using the word feeling to mean physical sensations or something like that.

So (an example) if my cat walks up to me mews and then suddenly bursts into flames and explodes, my feelings of sorrow are all my fault?




These are the exact things we were all talking about, but your earlier statement: "So instead of putting a band-aid over YOUR problem, try and reassess why you are being so needy in terms of his love. This has nothing to do with him, but more about you and your unhappiness. A couple of words from him should not dictate how you feel about him or anyone. To say you are going to toss a year because of your own insecurity is really ridiculous. Alot of the blame youre putting is on him, as if his actions cause your doubts. ITS ALL YOU, AND IT WILL ALWAYS BE YOU."

Was you blaming her for any confusion she feels, and it made it seem like you were stating that she needed to stop feeling those things and enjoy what she has with him despite how fulfilling it will always be to her.

And who's making an excuse? Who isn't doing anything about it? She IS doing something about it, she's asking people here for advice and is in the process of thinking about what to do, what her next course of action should be.



I have no clue what you mean by this, there seems to be an extreme disconnect in how the two of us communicate because I don't recall EVER stating anything about basing one's perceptions on the whim of another. Maybe it's semantics, I have no clue.

If you disagree that behavioral attraction is universal, you don't understand attraction. In either case, give me your reasons. I'm talking about something that is biological/psychological. Unless you can mutate matter at your disposal, you are going to be wrong.

"Where'd you get that? I never said you stated one shouldn't express their feelings."

I never said you did either, you're inferring me attacking you. Chill out. lol.


"When did...anyone state this? And how is worrying about the health of a relationship equate to a personal insecurity?"

Again, it goes back to interpretation, mine of seeing whats going on as needy and her projecting unto him.

Okay, see..She isnt worrying about the health of the RELATIONSHIP, I stated this EARLIER. Its more about HER insecurities. Why does she NEED him to say that? Because she's being NEEDY. Neediness is both unattractive and NOT HEALTHY. Yes, I am telling her to enjoy whats there, if theres nothing to enjoy then split. Again, this should all be NATURAL

1+1 = 2

Is it that difficult to add up?

& What the fuck does that have to do with him? She doesn't feel loved, either she deals with it or drops him. Talking about it is pretty much to FORCE A CHANGE out of him. Insecure people FORCE.

"So (an example) if my cat walks up to me mews and then suddenly bursts into flames and explodes, my feelings of sorrow are all my fault? "

Your cat didnt put a gun to you head and say 'FEEL SAD'.


"Was you blaming her for any confusion she feels, and it made it seem like you were stating that she needed to stop feeling those things and enjoy what she has with him despite how fulfilling it will always be to her.

And who's making an excuse? Who isn't doing anything about it? She IS doing something about it, she's asking people here for advice and is in the process of thinking about what to do, what her next course of action should be."

Youre taking what I say into different contexts.

Look, personally, I feel as if she is looking towards external sources rather then internal. I know this because I used to do that, and know alot of peopl who do. You sound like one of them, which is fine.

You dont have to agree with my view, and I dont with yours. I clearly think this is an insecurity thing, while you dont. Although, if you want to see my view, you should attempt to look deeper then the surface of what she is asking.

[thePirate]

No offense, but you have to have some pride. If I said that to someone and they didn't say it back...BYE. I don't buy the "i'm too scared to say it" BS.

You just turned me on a little.

Yum

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It's a way to always be loved & to love somebody without having to actually do the work that a real relationship requires. So by not saying it back, they don't have to face things they should be doing... they always get to hold power over you in a way if you say 'I love you' but they don't say 'Well I don't.' They don't allow you to have closure.

When you say 'I love you' in a deep way what you're really asking for in my mind, is a practical relationship. The whole going out/trying to live together thing. Or planning some real activities. If they don't say it back they must not really like you enough to do the concrete things that love entails, or they get off on playing mind games with people. What else could it be?

[Satan]

Bah,

Just tell him that you need him to tell you that he loves you at least once a day, or you'll forget that he loves you.

If he says that you know he loves you, then say that you just need that verbal reassurance.

Then if that's still not working that well, ask him if there's some reason that he can't say that he loves you. And whether maybe this relationship isn't right.

Then he may discuss problems in the relationship.

Try and sort them out together. And then maybe he'll start telling you he loves you.

[misutii]

Calenwin...

I'm an INFp male (early twenties) and this is how I see things. Personally I define "love" more along the lines of how Pirate does here. "Love" is in my opinion mutual intimacy, a relationship based on "love" would therefore be self-contained. Also "Love" is a serious thing, Love is what leads to marriage and if you want him to tell you that he loves you then you're also telling him to ask you to marry him.

It's not really any of my business but your relationship doesn't seem to have developed intimacy yet and hence these issues. I'd recommend planning and then going on a 2 week vacation together somewhere far away and foreign where you have to be with, and depend on, each other 24/7. When you get back from this if you're sick of each other then end the relationship. If you're closer than you ever were, then worry about this "love" thing.

I don't believe in this whole one-sided "love" thing that's been glamourized in popular culture. In my opinion most people seem to define love as some kind of twisted lust/possessiveness/dependence feelings. According to this twisted definition for example, I'd say that yeah, I've been in love before. But according to reality and the fact that I'm single at the moment, then no, I've never been in love. I'm mentioning this because if he's INFp and he told you that he's never been in love then this might be along the lines he was thinking, if so he was being completely honest.

[Blaze]

i kinda agree though with pirate here a little bit. and misutii.

i mean, calenwen feels loved....he behaves in ways that communicate love. he just doesn't say it. he prolly doesn't say it cuz he's infp and doesn't want to get himself cornered into marriage or some such. i could see infp hesitating about whether it is "time" to get married or make a life long committment.

calenwen is asking for a static response...how do you feel right now, dude? she wants that because it anchors her in a way. but, the infp, like her, is a dynamic, and doesn't want to commit to saying anything that could have repercussions later on in the time line.

but pirate is on to something...how much of our insecurity do we project onto others? how much do we need other people to be a certain way so we feel safe or OK? i think when the problem is reframed into what does calenwen need from a relationship rather than why doesn't infp provide it, this puts her more in the driver's seat for her life. i mean, she could talk to him about what are the different ways he could help her to feel more safe and secure in the relationship. saying i love you is only one, right? there must be any number of things a partner could do to enhance this....right?

because here's the thing with infp...they are inherently dynamic, changing, uncertain, into the kaleidescope of the timeline. this actually becomes hard for them at different times and why they need someone who can clarify things for them and show them what can be done right now. that's not going to change. so it's either accept infp for who he is or look for someone else. i'll say this: however he is right now, whatever is vibing calenwen right now is only going to become more magnified as the relationship continues, unless it is resolved.

interesting topic, lookalike relation between SEI-IEI.

[redbaron]

interesting topic, lookalike relation between SEI-IEI.

@everyone else, yeah I agree with Sunshine.

[misutii]

@everyone else, yeah I agree with Sunshine.

Yeah that response was elegantly eloquent beyond belief sunshine ENTp providing perfect insight for an ISFp in need

[Blaze]

thanks guys!

[Wittmont]

Great post Sunshine.

[calenwen]

i kinda agree though with pirate here a little bit. and misutii.

i mean, calenwen feels loved....he behaves in ways that communicate love. he just doesn't say it. he prolly doesn't say it cuz he's infp and doesn't want to get himself cornered into marriage or some such. i could see infp hesitating about whether it is "time" to get married or make a life long committment.

calenwen is asking for a static response...how do you feel right now, dude? she wants that because it anchors her in a way. but, the infp, like her, is a dynamic, and doesn't want to commit to saying anything that could have repercussions later on in the time line.

but pirate is on to something...how much of our insecurity do we project onto others? how much do we need other people to be a certain way so we feel safe or OK? i think when the problem is reframed into what does calenwen need from a relationship rather than why doesn't infp provide it, this puts her more in the driver's seat for her life. i mean, she could talk to him about what are the different ways he could help her to feel more safe and secure in the relationship. saying i love you is only one, right? there must be any number of things a partner could do to enhance this....right?

because here's the thing with infp...they are inherently dynamic, changing, uncertain, into the kaleidescope of the timeline. this actually becomes hard for them at different times and why they need someone who can clarify things for them and show them what can be done right now. that's not going to change. so it's either accept infp for who he is or look for someone else. i'll say this: however he is right now, whatever is vibing calenwen right now is only going to become more magnified as the relationship continues, unless it is resolved.

interesting topic, lookalike relation between SEI-IEI.

Thank you for this. I used a lot of what you said in an email I sent to him, which I hope will lead to some sort of conclusive decision about the relationship.

[Blaze]

Thank you for this. I used a lot of what you said in an email I sent to him, which I hope will lead to some sort of conclusive decision about the relationship.

good luck....keep us posted!

[Darkstar]

Calenwen i didnt read this whole thread but if you have any resemblence to the girl in your avatar, and I bet you do, you need not worry about anything. She is fucking adorable and if it don't work out between the two of you I can be your rebound and bask in your easy charm until you find another, more suitable man.

/Love

[redbaron]

Calenwen i didnt read this whole thread but if you have any resemblence to the girl in your avatar, and I bet you do, you need not worry about anything. She is fucking adorable and if it don't work out between the two of you I can be your rebound and bask in your easy charm until you find another, more suitable man.

Um, I think it's Audrey Hepburn?

[Darkstar]

Um, I think it's Audrey Hepburn?

Not at all, but I like your enthusiasm!