B&D's type blog

[JuJu]

This has jack shit to do with the greater good, a concept that I find reprehensible, and everything to do with people whining about absolutely nothing and trying to force everyone else to go along with them and their poorly reasoned demands.

No offense Diana, but what's wrong with wanting equal treatment, and not wanting to be discriminated against? Why are those "poorly reasoned demands?" And why do you consider efforts to that effect "whining?"

Right now, I agree with Gilly and B&D 100%, but I'm willing to be persuaded as to why I'm wrong.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Mediator Kam]

If two men want to get married, then I think I should be able to marry my cat. It's all about love right?

[xyz]

Honestly I'm not gonna lose sleep over two guys having sex. I honestly don't understand why people give such a shit.

[FDG]

Honestly I'm not gonna lose sleep over two guys having sex. I honestly don't understand why people give such a shit.

Really. I mean, call it human rights or whatever you want. Less time wasted in bullshit discussions, more time gained for doing anything else, be it more productive or more pleasurable, or be it gay sex.

One more gay men = one less straight men competing for women on the planet!

[marooned]

I thought that the problem was that religious bias was interfering in legal affairs by making the gender of the persons who are trying to marry relevant when it actually isn't. It acknowledges opposite sex marriage, but not same sex marriage (because of an over-arching religious bias that it's immoral). If we could fortify the crumbling wall between church and state, I don't think this would even be a problem... because there would be no legal difference.

Not all heterosexual married couples have children. Some gay couples do. So I don't see why children would be a big part of it. And then there are single parents with children...

ETA: all that aside, discrimination against homosexuality is one of the major discriminatory issues in society... it comes out legally and in all facets of life. But it's not alone... we still have racial discrimination... and I'm not going to list every freaking discrimination. It's a battle against our own brains as near as I can tell.

ETA2: maybe it's not a "crumbling wall" - I'm not sure the wall has ever been all that fortified.

[Gilly]

If two men want to get married, then I think I should be able to marry my cat. It's all about love right?

I must have checked out in bio when they explained how species and sex are the same thing.

[Gilly]

Diana, why exactly are you against gay marriage? And, if you aren't, why are you against people expressing their desires to be given equal rights?

[Mediator Kam]

I must have checked out in bio when they explained how species and sex are the same thing.

Never said that, but it you plan on legalizing a perversion, other perversions should be legalized also.This is of course assuming that heterosexuality is the dominant orientation and all other orientations are deviations.

I look at ancient greek culture for example. Homosexuality was condoned so soldiers would fight for each other with more vigor. Were they all homosexual by birth? Almost like greek pederasty and middle eastern/African bestiality tendencies. Simple perversion.

Now this doesn't change "equal rights", but that's how I think of it.

[JuJu]

Never said that, but it you plan on legalizing a perversion, other perversions should be legalized also.This is of course assuming that heterosexuality is the dominant orientation and all other orientations are deviations.

I look at ancient greek culture for example. Homosexuality was condoned so soldiers would fight for each other with more vigor. Were they all homosexual by birth? Almost like greek pederasty and middle eastern/African bestiality tendencies. Simple perversion.

Now this doesn't change "equal rights", but that's how I think of it.

Whose definition of "perversion" are you using..?

Your argument is what's known as "moral subjectivism." In other words, you're arguing this: most ppl in this particular time, at this particular place are not gay, therefore we should not condone gayness, (currently the "non-dominant orientation.").

"Dominant orientation" does not always equal "correct." Case in point: Nazism was the "dominant [political] orientation" in Germany during the mid-1930s through the mid-1940s. If you had lived in Germany during that time, by your line of reasoning: all of the other political "deviations" would have been wrong and "perverted" (b/c they were "non-dominant orientations.")

By your line of reasoning, as you stated, Classical Greek and Roman cultures were "perverted" b/c homosexuality was considered culturally normal... Do you realize that they might have considered you--a strictly heterosexual person with biases about homosexuality--somewhat "perverse," the same way you currently consider gays "perverse?"

Who is to say they were wrong? And who is to say that you are right?

[xyz]

JuJu, for what it's worth man, I'm all for it. I thought it was exceedingly fucked up when your friend told you to "lose his number". Like honestly... what's the damn problem?!?

I really don't see it as any form of perversion, I really don't see who they're hurting...

[Mediator Kam]

I have no bias. I look at the facts before I make a judgment. Don't bring up a decade in history JuJu. Look at the average climate of sexual orientation. It has been heterosexual. Not to mention that anal sex is exceedingly dirty. I look at how AIDS has spread rampantly in Africa. Men contracting AIDS from god-knows-where, and then giving their wives and children the disease.

Do you realize that they might have considered you--a strictly heterosexual person with biases about homosexuality--somewhat "perverse," the same way you currently consider gays "perverse?"

They're only human, who will make excuses for their behavior no matter what is thrown at them.

Kam have you ever talked with a gay person?

I actually have in real life. More like a couple. They're nice, but I don't condone their behavior.

[Gilly]

Dear Kamangir,

I have to make sure that your exceedingly limited base of knowledge includes the following two things before I continue:

-Birds
-The problem of potential overpopulation of the human race

Love,
Gilly

[UDP]

If two men want to get married, then I think I should be able to marry my cat. It's all about love right?

Kam have you ever talked with a gay person?

[JuJu]

If two men want to get married, then I think I should be able to marry my cat. It's all about love right?

Dude, can your cat give informed legal consent that it wants to marry you..? lol

I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread... (And I'm becoming increasingly glad that I live in Massachusetts.)

Well, my biggest problem is with calling it a "human rights issue" when it's not. And suggesting it's not much different than real civil rights issues people have faced in the past is ridiculous.

Iow, much ado about nothing, dramaticizing and acting as though they are sooo put upon, their rights soooo trampled, and it's all bullshit. No real rights have been taken away from them, nor denied. Forced acceptance of them by others is not a right.

The point is this: there's discrimination against gays built into certain laws, (among them, marriage laws,) which stem from religious (and thus social) tradition--that's what certain people are trying to change... Why is this bad at all? Why is striving for equal rights bad?

You've admitted that there is "discrimination" against gays--given that, if you were them, wouldn't you want to try to change it so that there wasn't discrimination? That's all they're trying to do... And you're right, in most places gays technically can do all of the things that you mentioned; however, although homosexuality is technically 'accepted' in a lot of places, in reality, it's not tolerated in practice, e.g. job discrimination. I heard a horror story the other day about something that happened to a guy after his boss found out that he liked dudes--suffice it to say, things got ugly... Why should it have to be like that?

In other words, this is the reason you should care: b/c there are ppl out there treating other ppl like garbage b/c of who they're sleeping with... Personally, I'd rather no one had to deal with it.

Also, if you want to think about "forced acceptance" and how it "is not a right," think about this: in the early 1960s, in Birmingham, Alabama, (among other places,) government officials "forced acceptance" of desegregated schooling... If you had lived back then, would you have agreed that this "forced acceptance of them by others is not a right?"