B&D's type blog

[Gilly]

Wow, Kamangir got banned? That's a little...extreme...oh well, he was an ignorant twat anyways.

[Lotus]

Wow, Kamangir got banned? That's a little...extreme...oh well, he was an ignorant twat anyways.

I assumed he asked to be banned... that's what two other SEIs did after getting into an argument. I'm pretty sure it's type-related.

[Gilly]

What a fucking idiot...

[Lotus]

I assumed he asked to be banned... that's what two other SEIs did after getting into an argument. I'm pretty sure it's type-related.

Actually never mind. I don't remember exactly what happened with the other two. And I like them.

[xyz]

he got banned? huh.

I wonder what's for dinner.

[Gilly]

lmao loki

[Expat]

He was banned as per his own request.

[JuJu]

Wow, Kamangir got banned? That's a little...extreme...oh well, he was an ignorant twat anyways.

I talked with Kamangir the other night at length--other than what's expressed here, he's really chill.

To be honest, throughout this thread I kept waiting for him to say something like "I'm only kidding."

Regardless, it's heartening to read a lot of these posts. Gilly, Allie, LokiV, Starfall, mn0good, and on and on... THANK YOU

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

7/11:

I feel tired/stupid today. I want to participate in other conversations but everything I say I feel stupid. I went to the fair AGAIN today, it annoyed me because everybody said I should draw even though I suck at it. I gave it up a long time ago, and I wish they didn't try to make me feel better about it. It's like if you can't/don't want to do something, people view it as a weakness and they bug you about it. This pisses me off, so I'm in kind of a mood today. Plus I'm sore.

They were being those stuck up artists that thought they were better than everybody else, when they need to go out and play football or something. They were all 'don't be closed off to your artistic expressions, Sam.' Ugggh just because I'm not open to your little rants don't take it the wrong way. I've always had a problem with social skills, since I do kinda act pensive/angry. I need somebody that will say 'hey he said he didn't want to do it, leave him the fuck alone!'

I took many art classes before, and even though I like to do it I figured I shouldn't waste time doing something I really suck at. I was one of the worst students in the class because I absolutely have no talent whatsoever and if something isn't in me, I wish people would just realize that and learn to let go. I think I picked it up in school because people assumed I was artistic just because I'm not jocky. I still like making my own comics though. Maybe if I make one of me kicking a bunch of pothead cocky artists in the ass do you think people would buy it?

I suppose I should learn to fake it more. Hey they were just making conversation right? I could have said "Oh yeah maybe I'll do it, it will be fun!" instead of being honest and making them feel kinda closed off. Oh well though.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Wait, somebody got banned because of this discussion? What the fuck?

Uggggh. This just makes my blood boil. If he wanted to piss me off with that passive-aggressive martyr bullshit, it worked.

Expat, can you please tell him I apologize if I made him so upset? Or maybe I'll tell him myself directly. Even if he is ignorant, I have a soft spot if a person is getting ganged up on. I realize I'm contradicting myself since I always talk about how we have to be tough on homophobia. But he's probably not really upset, seems like he's just being a passive-aggressive guilt-tripping little mama's boy. Asking himself to be banned? What the hell.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Oh er I just wanna say, I think a man/woman relationship has some obviously minor differences- I think they might naturally cover certain weaknesses better... but they also seem to have more arguements and like they can't bond romantically as I can with a man. I don't know lol. Also gay men rarely get as angry/fight as often as a straight couple. This is also fact. (Need to find that article....) Two men wouldn't bitch about toilet seats, but also both might be lazy about doing housework.

But anyways my only point is that just because two men MIGHT in fact be worse in some areas (and vice-versa) doesn't make heterosexual relationships better/worse than homosexual relationships.

It's like saying because women are physically weaker than men, women are innately inferior. Or because gay men are more intuitive than straight men, straight guys are innately inferior. Give me a fucking break people. Phobes sometimes go and beat up gay men just because generally speaking as a whole, we're not as physically strong as straight men. Assholes. Hope they eat shit and die.

We are complex enough yet we can't do everything well. They *used* to make gay couples go through so many fucking hoops to prove how perfect/wonderful they were to adopt. Maybe they eased up on them little, but it's just ridiculous. I'm not gonna prissy myself up like some gay men do to make people like me. We shouldn't expect people to have to do that. Reminds me of those really horrible tv shows where the minority characters were perfect moral saints.

[Gilly]

I never really had a serious opinion on the guy, but now, well, I can understand that some people like him/think he's fun, but I won't have anything to do with someone that closemindedly bigoted. Anyone that stubbornly dogmatic about discrimination, of all things, in the face of overwhelming evidence...I have no room in my sphere of admiration or respect for people like that. I mean, I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but as far as I'm concerned, you can keep him. I hope he goes to heaven or reaches eternal peace or whatever, but I also hope he learns to respect his fellow humans.

[Lotus]

I never really had an opinion on the guy other than that he didn't seem particularly interesting, but now, well, I can understand that some people like him/think he's fun, but I won't have anything to do with someone that closed minded. Anyone that stubbornly dogmatic about discrimination, of all things, in the face of overwhelming evidence...I have no room in my sphere of admiration or respect for people like that. I mean, I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but as far as I'm concerned, you can keep him.

Heh, I stopped liking him after arguing with him about abortion. Before that, we used to talk on AIM a lot. Stuff like this is what really turns me off of people.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Plus if homosexuality is so bad, how come gay men do A LOT better in life if they come out socially to the general public, and they do so poorly when they don't? If it's so dysfunctional, why does admitting it enable gay guys to build better lives for themselves? Just doesn't make any sense. When you don't come out it seems to enable Robert Reed-like behavior and suicide.

I can actually understand how some people can view it as a natural weakness however, though in the grand scheme of things it isn't, I don't think. Fucking a girl would just feel awkward to me. Besides I've always loved being gay. =)

And yeah people who are open-minded have more friends. I feel sorry for bigots because they just don't tend to have any real friends. Esp. the home-schooled Christian type. =/ I can't help but feel sorry for them.

[Gilly]

I feel sorry for bigots because they just don't tend to have any real friends. Esp. the home-schooled Christian type.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Sorry. YMMV, and all that.

[Lotus]

Plus if homosexuality is so bad, how come gay men do A LOT better in life if they come out socially to the general public, and they do so poorly when they don't? If it's so dysfunctional, why does admitting it enable gay guys to build better lives for themselves? Just doesn't make any sense. When you don't come out it seems to enable Robert Reed-like behavior and suicide.

I can actually understand how some people can view it as a natural weakness however, though in the grand scheme of things it isn't, I don't think. Fucking a girl would just feel awkward to me. Besides I've always loved being gay. =)

And yeah people who are open-minded have more friends. I feel sorry for bigots because they just don't tend to have any real friends. Esp. the home-schooled Christian type. =/ I can't help but feel sorry for them.

Aww reading this made me smile for some reason.

It really is their fault if they don't have friends. Having preconceived beliefs about how people should be/act/live is really sad. You limit yourself in so many ways, and lose out on amazing people and experiences.

I'm pretty open to anyone, even the "home-schooled Christian type" lol... if they can tolerate me. I think it's really admirable how you have so much confidence in who you are, btw. I think I need to be more like that.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Lotus]

How some of you are treating Kam (Gilly, BND,Allie), and the things you're saying about him because his beliefs differ from yours is pretty disgusting.

Like what, exactly?

So much for all your crap about tolerance, acceptance and so on. Looks like you expect it to only go one way.

I'll admit that I'm turned off by close-mindedness, but I'm also still willing to be friends with anyone who is willing to accept me first. I think that's the crucial difference.

And honestly, I don't understand how you're judging me based on a reaction that I had after reading something that I interpreted as extremely rude and offensive (IMO). I was frustrated, but I still didn't say anything about his him OR his beliefs that I feel isn't justifiable.

[Gilly]

How some of you are treating Kam (Gilly, BND,Allie), and the things you're saying about him because his beliefs differ from yours is pretty disgusting. So much for all your crap about tolerance, acceptance and so on. Looks like you expect it to only go one way.

I don't see how I treated him unjustly. I expressed myself honestly and presented him with the facts; if he took it too personally, that's his own fault. He's free to be who he wants to be and believe what he wants to believe, but I'm equally free to tell him how I feel about it. It's not like anyone is intentionally ganging up on him about his beliefs; everyone here is just expressing their opinions, aren't they? Would you deny me the right to speak my mind? Who would be the intolerant one then?

[Khola aka Bee]

Ok...I'm am big on equality. I have friends that are gay and friends that are straight. Beyond that they are my friends. I don't really care about the rest!

People have a right to do what they want, so long as it doesn't harm others. I'm the biggest Athiest ever, and I really REALLY have a problem with certain religions, but I'm not about to judge someone on that if they feel differently.

What a boring world we would live in if everyone was the same.

As for Kam, I like him. A lot of his views make me want to shake him really hard, but deep down I think his heart is in the right place. He is only young, he has a lot of life to live, and at some level I respect his ability to hold strong beliefs.

I don't get the self-banning thing though, I must admit. I guess I'll add that to th list of things that make me not SEI

Fuck I'm an attention whore.

[Gilly]

For the record, I'm completely convinced that you are standing up for him like this because your beliefs coincide. You butt buddy discojoe treats people with absolutely zero respect with regards to their feelings and opinions quite often, and you don't seem to have a problem when he does it. By comparison I believe everyone in this thread is behaving as a paragon of civility and tolerance.

[Khola aka Bee]

Are you talking to me Gilly?

I'll get the mud.

[UDP]

For the record, I'm completely convinced that you are standing up for him like this because your beliefs coincide.

For myself, I have disagreed with him here somewhat. Nevertheless, I support his quest for his beliefs and trying to understand how to apply them.

[Lotus]

Kamangir is not an idiot. But he probably did get pretty emotional, defending his beliefs. Whether or not he is right or wrong, whether or not everyone here is right or wrong, Kam is simply acting on his beliefs. He has been raised with these beliefs, had them his whole life. Religious beliefs...well, that's a whole nother issue. A very sensitive, touchy issue. I think something like this happened a while back, didn't it....well, I don't believe putting your religious beliefs in anyone's face helps things. It just makes them defensive and angry. But there's a line you have to draw for yourself on when exactly you stand up for the things you believe in. I don't believe deeply held religious beliefs are something you just discard completely like a worn out tissue one day. I could be wrong, but I believe it's more of a slow desensitizing process. If Kam were to give up his religion for the rights of gays, it would be an idea he'd have to contemplate over a long period of time. He'd have to get used to it, probably for a long time, before he ever completely switched sides.

But who says Kam is going to change his beliefs for the rights of gays? You guys don't mean it, but you're forcing him to choose between his life, his family, what he has known practically his whole life, for the words of some forum strangers on the internet. People on the internet who sometimes have not been exactly sympathetic with their arguments. I realize he hasn't been perfect, he's said some pretty upsetting things. Those reactions you guys have are perfectly legitimate. However, his reaction is also perfectly legit. You're question his whole belief system, forcing him to choose, and calling him an idiot. He's got multiple people trying to argue him into the ground.

He's got people throwing logical arguments in his face, he's got people getting emotional because of their own beliefs, he's got his beliefs, he's got his emotional investment in the forum atmosphere...I can see where all the inner conflict maybe got to be to much. I empathize completely.

Dolphin, what you're saying about Fe and the atmosphere and such makes sense to me. And I'm sorry that our reactions to him made him uncomfortable or upset, however I can't be sorry for what I said.

I will still defend what I've said in this thread despite what you and Diana are saying. Because Kam's defense of his "beliefs" seem more like desperate attempts to attach himself to something.

Why? Because like you said...

You guys don't mean it, but you're forcing him to choose between his life, his family, what he has known practically his whole life, for the words of some forum strangers on the internet.

His beliefs are directly tied to his family and religion. His beliefs are his stability. To admit his beliefs are wrong would mean his religion and family are wrong. He defends them because they are his stability and he is afraid to lose that. I think that's a problem and I apologize if I wasn't sensitive enough, but I still don't regret what I've said.

You can love and respect your family and keep practicing your religion, but don't attach your world to it at such a young age. To already have a belief on the world and how it should work at seventeen years old? That's scary.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Gilly, stop saying things to make me love you! LOL

Diana, I already apologized if I hurt Kam in anyway. But what he did was completely wrong. Asking to be banned in order to guilt-trip people. How can anybody condone that behavior? He didn't have the right attitude to work it out with us I guess. I already said that maybe he should have more people defending him, so it's not like I don't have compassion.

We can disagree that's fine, but Gilly and I are clearly right about this, and you two are clearly wrong. I don't know what else to tell you. Opinions are only worth something if they are backed up by facts, and yours aren't. Just your sense of moral attitudes - which are subjective and aren't something we can base laws on.

Where was your tolerance and compassion, when you accused me of wanting to be like heterosexual couples? No, I want the same basic rights as everybody else. Not want- need.

The reason we get so upset with you guys is because you have no evidence to back up your bigotry.

[marooned]

Maybe Kam might come back later.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

If only everyone was a logical type, none of this drama would happen.

I don't like the drama, but then I do. I realize 'I started it' so haha. What can I say. I just wish people didn't get so charged up about this, but I was all charge-y first myself.

It's not hard though. Took a long while for people to get over black folk being equal to them. *shrug*

You can't really stick up for somebody that actually asks to ban themselves though. That's just being a whiny guilt-tripper. If I did that, I wouldn't want Gilly or anybody to stand up for me.

[UDP]

Gilly, stop saying things to make me love you! LOL

Diana, I already apologized if I hurt Kam in anyway. But what he did was completely wrong. Asking to be banned in order to guilt-trip people. How can anybody condone that behavior? He didn't have the right attitude to work it out with us I guess. I already said that maybe he should have more people defending him, so it's not like I don't have compassion.

I don't think he was trying to guilt trip anyone.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Okay, but why else would you ask yourself to be banned?

Why not just leave or ignore the thread?

Why ask yourself to be banned by the entire forum for not liking how you were treated in one thread?

He totally gave up on any kind of relationship he could have here. Why did he hurt himself like that, just because he didn't like a few people personally? Or if he left for other reasons on top of what happened here, still, he could have just left.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Unfortunately we aren't coddled, or humored really, once we get into the outside world. We are left to find our own truth. I can't really find words to express how much this fucking sucks.

Aww that's kind of umm ... well, I don't know. I see people get coddled and humored at work/school all the time still. If somebody isn't getting positive reinforcement, well I think... they simply need to change up their environment. In private too, everybody needs love. Human beings are weak, we need lots and lots of love, hugs and puppy kisses!

[Gilly]

Are you talking to me Gilly?

I'll get the mud.

My last two posts were both directed at Diana.

[Gilly]

Given a choice, I would probably rather be content blindly believing something, even if it didn't make complete logical and ethical sense.

Being content isn't all there is to life. I, too, have been led to question many of my deeply held beliefs, some of them by people on this very forum, and I am grateful for every one. Maybe you are different, but I think getting shaken up helps me grow and be stronger at my core, because it makes me question who I am and what really matters to me even more deeply, which gets me closer and closer to the truth.

[Lotus]

You don't have to be sorry if you don't want. Your reasons are perfectly valid and your reactions are perfectly legitimate. However, I do think it's good to practice a little empathy once in a while. People are people, and at the end of the day you've got to decide whether or not your arguments are going to really sustain you through the cold darkness of night. I don't believe Kam has anything to gain from questioning his religion. I have, and I've grown. But it's not in a direction that I necessarily wanted. Given a choice, I would probably rather be content blindly believing something, even if it didn't make complete logical and ethical sense. I've learned some new things in being desensitized with my own religion, but it hasn't brought anything better - just raised new questions.

These kind of conflicts between people just seem to always crop up. I believe that this forum only shows over and over that there really is a fundamental difference between people that can be attributed to type. Kam is different than Allie. He's probably not going to be sustained with Ti like she is. She will probably never completely understand his motives, nor he hers. I can logically decide in my mind that Allie's reaction is just as valid, however, it doesn't resonate with me so completely as Kam's does. It's no one's fault. It's just the zoo that is Socionics - that's human nature. That's been demonstrated over and over. Human nature has overarching tendencies that we can't get away from no matter how hard we run. Unfortunately we aren't coddled, or humored really, once we get into the outside world. We are left to find our own truth. I can't really find words to express how much this fucking sucks.

I really like you dolphin. Something about the way you explain things to me calms me down and makes me really listen to you. Despite you and Diana's posts having a similar message (Me, B&D, and Gilly being insensitive) the way you say it has a very different tone to it. You're open-minded and very non-judgmental and I find it very refreshing and admirable. You seem to understand us all, and you don't question our character, our morals, and us as human beings because of that. I really, really appreciate that. And it kind of illustrates how duality would help me because for some reason (which I would now like to understand) I do have an urge to be nicer and more sensitive after understanding things from your perspective. In contrast, Diana's post annoyed me and made me bitch more.

But back to the point:
I completely relate to what you said about preferring to be blind and content (ugh, ignorance is bliss) but I'm not sure if I think that's the right way to live.

To be happy and content is ideal. However, you're going to have to interact with other people. If you're home-schooled, alone, isolated, etc... I can see how living like that would be better. But if you're going to be blind or judgmental to foreign ideas, you're just going to be miserable for the duration of your life because there's no way to avoid that. If you want to live in this world, you have to actually see it.

Does that make sense?

[UDP]

That's just being a whiny guilt-tripper.

The only one whining here is you


He's out of your thread. If you want to keep talking about him it's just making yourself feel better.

[Gilly]

The only one whining here is you

Jesse, don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong. Unless you like all this drama...

[Lotus]

The only one whining here is you

Are you trying to be rude? It's his fucking BLOG, the whole point is for him to rant about his thoughts and feelings, not for you to criticize them.

[UDP]

Jesse, don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong. Unless you like all this drama...

Well you have said essentially nothing. But because there is a near-insult, a command, an implication of "liking drama", and of course the use of a name, George must be getting emotional.

[UDP]

Are you trying to be rude? It's his fucking BLOG, the whole point is for him to rant about his thoughts and feelings, not for you to criticize them.

That's entirely not what I was getting at, and I'm not sure why you think that.

My point was, if you're going to down talk someone and call them whiny when they aren't even on the forum and aren't in the thread anymore, then how is that not being whiny yourself?



PS: What's with all this tension here? Gilly's using my name, and now this from Allie? I wrote to point out that I disagreed with B&D's claim that Kam did what he did to be whiny and to guilt trip. That's all.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Heh. Thanks guys. Jeesh man UDP, where did that comment come from?

Okay back to the point. Are you saying he was such a hater he had to ask to be banned in order not to go ballistic and say something he shouldn't?

Whatever it was, it made me psychologically clash with him (when before, we merely disagreed about homosexuality, that could happen even with my dual) Oh well though, I figure anything else we say now is just gonna make the problem worse, so back to blogging.

7/12:

Everybody in the world sucks besides me and my new cyber boyfriend, Gilly. And I have no idea where UDP's hostility for me is coming from because whoa- that was way out of left field. I thought we were tight, man. Whatever the reason, this forum feels like my new 'home' and I don't think I ever want to leave here. Hmm... I'm getting too addicted. But this is just way better than anything that happens in the lame, boring real world I don't care what anybody says.

I think we need to start our own reality show here or something, that could be cool. I think I'll draw comics for everybody. I think I can really make everybody laugh.