enneagram type for dbmmama

[strrrng]

Hey strrrng, does this sound like Ni-needing to you at all?

no, it was completely delta NF the way she described it. ENFp.

[dbmmama]

no, it was completely delta NF the way she described it. ENFp.

then, i'm either ENFp E7 or INFj E1. i came up INFJ in MB for many years before coming to socionics. the three types i've been looking at lately are infp, infj and isfp.

gotta go to bed now.

[Phaedrus]

then, i'm either ENFp E7 or INFj E1. i came up INFJ in MB for many years before coming to socionics.

If you only have two options, and and you don't know FOR SURE whether you are an ENFp E7 or an INFj E1, then you are terribly lost in your understanding of the types. If you understand the types, you can NEVER EVER be in doubt between those two alternatives.

[Phaedrus]

I am ENFp and I relate a lot to INFj.

If you are an ENFp you can relate to a lot in INFj type descriptions, and you can relate to a lot in INFj typical attitudes, ways of thinking, values, etc. But you can NEVER EVER seriously doubt whether you are an ENFp or an INFj, because the ENFp is an extraverted irrational type and the INFj is an introverted rational type. They are totally different in 2 out of 4 dichotomies, and they have totally opposite temperaments (EP and IJ). If you understand the temperaments, it is insane not to be sure whether you are EP or IP. If you still doubt after having understood the temperaments, you are probably neither EP nor IJ.

I'm probably E-type 9w1 and I relate to both E1 and E7 as well (along with a lot of the other E-types).

That only makes sense if you don't understand the temperaments, because a typical E1 has an IJ temperament, and a typical E7 has an EP temperament. You probably haven't studied the Enneagram types deeply enough to understand them correctly. E1s and E7s are VERY different.

So either that means I have more fixations than others, or it means that my own fixation is somewhat invisible (at least to me).

No, it means that you don't understand the types yet.

dbmmama's confusion makes perfect sense to me.

But objectively speaking it doesn't.

I have to say that in my eyes, after studying the enneagram, I don't have a lot of confidence in all parts of it.

Well, then you just have to study it some more. And remember not to focus too much on the details (because the whole Enneagram system is inherently flawed).

The enneagram descriptions seem to try to explain behavior when it can't.

Correct. Its theoretical explanations are wrong.

[Phaedrus]

Oh, I'm pretty certain when it comes to my EP-temperament. But I can easily understand how someone would be insecure. You seem very square about this thing, I guess you're not EP yourself...?

Once you understand what the temperaments and the four dichotomies are about it is simply impossible not to know which of two opposing temperaments you are (not). You can hesitate between one dichotomy but not two. If you are EP you could perhaps be slightly unsure whether you might be EJ or IP, but you wouldn't dream of thinking that you might be IJ.

I am IP myself. And the only other temperament I have ever thought could be an alternative to that is IJ. I have always been close to 100 % sure that I am an introvert.

I'll give you an example... A person could have had some very wild and outgoing social years with a lot of flexibility and then some very calm and socially isolated years with a lot of focus. He might ask himself if the years of isolation showed his real temperament or if he's a more flexible type. Then he might ask if the isolation was caused by an undiscovered depression, or if the party-years were caused by circumstantial factors, like him being a student not having any obligations... I know people like that, not understanding what temperament is their "real".

It think that it is more likely that an extravert doesn't know that he or she is an extravert than that an introvert doesn't know that he or she is an introvert. Introverts seem to tend to know themselves better than extraverts do.

I also know an IJ that is loud and social and round. He's actually INFj. But if you asked anyone, I'm sure they'd perceive him EP-temperamental. I didn't believe in his IJ-temperament until I had known him for a really long time. Now I'm certain.

And how can you be so certain about that? What are your determining criteria? What is your typing method(s)?

We are human beings, and we change all the time.

We are human beings, and we almost never change. We are what we are.

It's not so easy to know why. To me it seems you cannot grasp that a theory isn't definite and that people's souls are not solid boxes that fit perfectly in the theory (due to Te-creative?). I don't buy your crap, though. You'll have to convince me with facts, not theories. (And it's not a fact what a theory says. Show me with real people)

I don't buy theories unless the correspond with reality. It's all about the facts of human nature.

What about the theory saying that 9s sometimes can recognize the motivations of all types but their own...?

Well, that only means that they can't be objective. So we should not trust their judgment.

I guess it's totally out of the question that my observation is valid along with yours....? Maybe we discuss different things.

Possible. Hard to tell for sure.

You discuss how to fit dbmmama into a model, I discuss how a person might not fit very well in a man-made model, and thus may have a hard time projecting into it.

And I'll totally forget that you didn't provide even ONE piece of useful information when it comes to HOW you type someone that is uncertain still AFTER studying.

You can be uncertain about some aspects, but you can not be uncertain about EP and IJ. Period.

To make my own post a little more useful than yours, I'll give you my impression of what type you are based on your last answer. I think you are INTp.

Correct observation. I am most definitely an INTp.

[Phaedrus]

Well.. That is, in my opinion, a very narrow-minded way to see the world.

That is an irrelevant comment, because what I say happens to be the objective truth of the matter. We introverts have a natural advantage over extraverts when it comes to knowing our own personality. We focus on it, whereas extraverts focus more on the external world. And what I say here is trivial and common knowledge in typology. You can't dispute it.

An opposite (and equally narrow-minded) way is to see this is to say that introverts are so certain because they don't understand the world as well, and since extroverts understand the world better, they know that things are not as black&white as you say.

That is not what I am talking about. Introverts almost always know that they are introverts. Some extraverts incorrectly believe that they are introverts (usually ENFps and ENTps).

However, I think this is more of a maturity thing. I think people might have bigger problems typing themselves the more mature they are, as their experiences will be more diverse.

It all depends on your knowledge, your analytical ability, and your ability to be objective.

Bullshit. That's ridiculous, and I don't believe it.

It's the truth, and if you don't believe it you are narrow-minded, prejudiced, and ignorant.

What is the purpose of the enneagram if not to help you break old patterns?

The purpose is the same as it is with Socionics: to get to know who you really are.

A question to illustrate change: Every cell in you body has changed since your birth. Are you still the same?

The only thing that is relevant to us here is your type. And your type is still the same.

And what about people with multiple-personality-disorders? Have they not changed? People do change. All the time. Some change more than others.

Yes, people change -- but their types and their behaviours don't.

And it means typing gets harder.

Only if you don't understand what is relevant to correct typing.

There are more theories about this than yours, you know.

Irrelevant. I am only interested in true theories. And they are not my theories. And besides, I focus on the facts much more than I focus on the theories that try to explain the facts.

Don't be so certain. You can't know.

I know.

Only if it's true for you, it doesn't prove it's true for everybody.

Total nonsense. Stop being so damn stupid and ignorant, please. If it is true for one person, it is true for every person. The truth is not dependent on the individual. A truth is a truth, and it is always objective -- never subjective. Period.

So, if other people say they don't find the enneagram corresponding to reality, then they are wrong, but not the theory.

I have already said that the Enneagram is a false theory, and it is a false theory -- but the Enneagram type descriptions correspond to real groups of people just as the socionic type descriptions do.

That's lack of respect.

Respect!? What the hell has respect has to do with anything here? I respect the objective truth, and the people who disrespect the objective truth can go to hell.

That's offensive again.

I don't care if it's offensive. It's totally irrelvant whether it is offensive or not. I state the truth.

[Phaedrus]

I see. You are the one with all the answers to the human psyche.

No, I only have some answers to the human psyche. If I had them all, I would probably lose interest in socionic discussions.

I don't agree with you, so I guess truth is subjective after all.

No, truth is still objective. You don't understand the concept truth, that's all.

[tereg]

@Phaedrus: I guess this is bit of a philosophical question.

Is it possible for a person who emphatically states "This is the truth." to be misled by improper evidence? (i.e. the evidence used to reach the conclusion was faulty)

The truth is the culmination of the evidence and facts. This is not to say that it is such that a person will just blindly see false evidence. I'm just asking, is it possible for it to happen? Would it not be the case then (if the previous answer is no, because a person grounded in truth would never accept or be tricked into believing false evidence) that two people can state at the same time "This is the truth." and be saying the complete opposite of the other? One person must be wrong. Who is wrong? Is it the one who misinterpreted the facts? Is it the one who was deceived by false evidence? Who is it?

Is truth the perception and interpretation of the evidence and facts? Can one come to the truth without truly applying some sort of interpretation of said facts and evidence?

[Phaedrus]

Could you explain a little more about what you mean by saying the whole Enneagram system is inherently flawed?

There are 16 types, not 9. Most Enneagram explanations are based on false assumptions, like the implicit assumption that nurture is more important than nature in shaping our personalities. The Enneagram is simply not the correct theory on human behaviour.

[dbmmama]

There are 16 types, not 9. Most Enneagram explanations are based on false assumptions, like the implicit assumption that nurture is more important than nature in shaping our personalities. The Enneagram is simply not the correct theory on human behaviour.

it's not that it's not correct, it's just a different ANGLE. enneagram is based on the dynamics of an individuals that DO change. while socionics is based on the statics that don't change, the lens we see the world through.

[Phaedrus]

enneagram is based on the dynamics of an individuals that DO change. while socionics is based on the statics that don't change, the lens we see the world through.

No.

[Phaedrus]

Are you talking 16 types as in Socionics? Or 16 fixations in the Enneagram?

There are 16 socionic types, and they correspond with reality. The 9 types in the Enneagram do not correspond as well with reality, althouth they are roughly correct. But roughly correct is not the same thing as being true.

[Phaedrus]

So you say you agree with me now, all of a sudden, that it's possible to not understand what Enneagram you are, as the theory is not true...... I'm confused.

The Ennegram types are not the theory of the Enneagram types. You can determine which of the 9 types you are, despite the theory that explains the behaviour and attitudes of the 9 types being false.

[dbmmama]

Thank you.



And you could even be an ENFp and be a 1, probably.



If it helps, that is why my EII friend can't paint anything.

You're anxiety, the way it manifests, the perfection, still reminds me of a 6. She is a 9w1 and she is less self-conscious. But alot of her desires are the same as yours. I could see her being a dancer, etc. :>

thanks esper.

i'm a 1 alright. i act like a 4 under stress and have learned many ways to help myself and grow, which looks more like a 7. the core of me is a 1. im not going to explain it further because being an unhealthy 1 most of my life sucked too bad. i've grown and i want to stay in that place and keep moving forward.