enneagram type for dbmmama

[Phaedrus]

Are you talking 16 types as in Socionics? Or 16 fixations in the Enneagram?

There are 16 socionic types, and they correspond with reality. The 9 types in the Enneagram do not correspond as well with reality, althouth they are roughly correct. But roughly correct is not the same thing as being true.

[tereg]

No, it's not. Truth is a property of those propositions that correspond with reality. Evidence is relevant to knowledge, but truth does not require evidence.

No. Truth is correspondence with reality. A proposition is true if it corresponds with a fact.

You can come to the truth by guessing. If I say that the moon is a blue cheeze, and you say that the moon is not a blue cheeze, we both know that one of us must be right and the other person must be wrong, because I say "A" and you say "Not A". Either "A" or "Not A" is necessarily a true proposition (and the other is then a false proposition). This is simple logic, which you cannot dispute once you have understood it. A person who disputes what I say here is either mentally insane or an imbecile.

I'm satisfied with the response.

The only point I'm wanting to make (which is an obvious one) at this point is that a person can say "This is the truth" but be incorrect because of a false belief.

That's all I'm trying to say.

[Phaedrus]

Well, you seemed a little tense....but maybe it's just the way you argue.

I can get slightly (and sometimes rather) irritated when people are ignorant and/or the opposite of bright, but that's usually more of a problem for them than it is for me.

I suppose you can churn them out without any emotional involvement whatsoever, huh?

Yes, more or less. I am more interested in the issue itself and the arguments than in the persons involved in the debate.

If it were me, I'd probably be pretty emotional...getting it out, channeling it by arguing my point. But you're probably not like this, right? I suppose you enjoy the debate.

I don't enjoy debates where people focus more on the emotional aspects than on logical arguments. The purpose of having a debate is to reach a consensus (if possible) on what is the objective truth.

Well Phaedrus I'm going to town now. And my car doesn't have air conditioning. But anyway, cheer up! Sammy says hi, btw.

If you are taking Sammy with you, don't let him stay in the car to long by himself in the heat. And you have to pat him for me, because I am allergic to cats.

[dbmmama]

my thoughts...

if dbmmama (I can't spell) is beta, she is EIE
if delta, she is IEE
if gamma, she is SEE
if alpha, she is ESE...

I don't know a whole lot about the enneagram, so I don't know... I could see 3. but gah, 7 seems reasonable as well... frankly the only one I'm really good at typing with the enneagram is myself.

are you saying i could be any of those from all four quadras? ahhhh!!! LOL

i agree with you by the way. at this point it's hard for me to tell what my "base" values are. i've grown to appreciate and value many things in my life, including aspects from each quadra.

when i look at what the enneagram presents it to be, i am a 4w3, going toward that perfectionist side a bit too much in my life that brings me down into depression really wanting my 4ness to SHINE!

[Phaedrus]

The only point I'm wanting to make (which is an obvious one) at this point is that a person can say "This is the truth" but be incorrect because of a false belief.

That's all I'm trying to say.

On that we agree.

[Phaedrus]

So you say you agree with me now, all of a sudden, that it's possible to not understand what Enneagram you are, as the theory is not true...... I'm confused.

The Ennegram types are not the theory of the Enneagram types. You can determine which of the 9 types you are, despite the theory that explains the behaviour and attitudes of the 9 types being false.

[tereg]

I'm satisfied with the response.

The only point I'm wanting to make (which is an obvious one) at this point is that a person can say "This is the truth" but be incorrect because of a false belief.

That's all I'm trying to say.

Sorry I just thought of another wrinkle.

Two people can state "This is the truth" and both be wrong if what they're saying are not polar opposite statements.

1: The chair is blue.
2: The chair is green.

The chair is neither blue nor green.

Anyways, I'm sorry for derailing the the thread further, but I wanted to state it.

Someone can state that something is the truth or state that something is fact but be incorrect because of a false belief, and it can happen to any person.

[dbmmama]

On that we agree.

i think we all agree on that one.

the problem comes in, phaedrus, when there are individuals who ARE bright, but need a bit of emotional "touch" to what you say to hear it properly. yes, that is not your forte and yes, they "shouldn't" need it to hear objective truth. but, the FACT is that there are many bright people who DO NEED IT, whether you like that or not. and that is a truth.

[dbmmama]

Anyways, I'm sorry for derailing the the thread further, but I wanted to state it.

i LOVE derailing threads. they are the most interesting and dynamicly flowing....when we follow the inspiration within us, there is always a reason it happens the way it does.

[dbmmama]

i LOVE derailing threads. they are the most interesting and dynamicly flowing....when we follow the inspiration within us, there is always a reason it happens the way it does.

there, what type says that?

that's the way i live my life and parenting and homeschooling my kids......and what i've helped others with in my coaching/healing work.

[macysmama]

Hey there! Good to see you back. Have you given your type any more thought?[/QUOTE]

Hi back! I just started reading about eannagrams and it makes so much more sense to me than socionics! In socionics, there are several types I seem to be all at once, but the theory does not make this logical/true. With the beauty of the eannagram circle, I can see how I fit and change and improve and get stressed and live in every moment at a undefinable "different" place on this sphere. I can see how it does still stem from my base need, morphing and changing who I am at every new moment of my life. Socionics has only given me stress, while the eannagram has given me a new peace and calm about who I am and my true desires. It has started to show me where I have been and where I want to go...
Truly beautiful

[dbmmama]

when I read that I think leading (about following the inspiration within us and encouraging others to do the same, to inspire others in this very enthusiastic way).

eta: but see I could see possibly doing that in a different way...

yes, i can see it both ways too. that's why it's confusing whether it's this or that.

[dbmmama]

yes, i can see it both ways too. that's why it's confusing whether it's this or that.

could an SEE be a 4?

[dbmmama]

tereg and loki,

which one of you sees potential in a person as coming from within and which one sees it coming from outer experiences? or did i just answer my own question?

[tereg]

tereg and loki,

which one of you sees potential in a person as coming from within and which one sees it coming from outer experiences? or did i just answer my own question?

I see potential in a person based on their own circumstances and their own experiences, regardless of what I have or haven't gone through myself. I put myself in the other person's shoes and try to ascertain their potential from their own perspective.

[dbmmama]

hmm... I'm not sure I even have an answer for this. If I had to answer, I would say both... ?

I see valuing and ethical as being most centered on looking at a person's potential... (it seeks the abstract hidden potential of a human being... and ways to create possibilties that bring that potential out so it can be reached) - I see it as most matching Delta values... though my ESE mother is really big on this as well (especially after reading a ton of self-help books)

then i may be like your mom.

i don't "seek" anyone's hidden potential. spirit already whispered into their soul. it's already there. i see my job as allowing it to shine. giving the person the soil, water, sunshine and love to allow that which spirit whispered into them from before time, to shine in the physical manifestation of them.

[dbmmama]

I see potential in a person based on their own circumstances and their own experiences, regardless of what I have or haven't gone through myself. I put myself in the other person's shoes and try to ascertain their potential from their own perspective.

thanks tereg, that helps. you still see it as something that comes from the outside of the person, that helps it grow. yes?

[Phaedrus]

the problem comes in, phaedrus, when there are individuals who ARE bright, but need a bit of emotional "touch" to what you say to hear it properly. yes, that is not your forte and yes, they "shouldn't" need it to hear objective truth. but, the FACT is that there are many bright people who DO NEED IT, whether you like that or not. and that is a truth.

I agree that that is a problem, but I am not sure what to do about it. It's very easy for me to separate the logical content of what a person says from any emotional touch that may, or may not, be attached to it. And it seems to be so difficult for others. I know that others have trouble separating what is said from how it is said, but I can't really understand why they find it so difficult (except from the fact that I know that that's simply the way their brains are structured).

[Phaedrus]

could an SEE be a 4?

No.

[dbmmama]

So you say dbmmama, that I would agree with him if he had a little emotional "touch"...

I don't think so. His theory might be right, but it is only one of many different theories. I will never believe in definiteness the way the he teaches. phaedrus argues that humans are definitely one of the E-types from birth to death. He might be right, I won't argue that, but he can't know for sure, and he can't call it a universal truth. We just don't know that. If he knows, then he needs to prove it, not state it. It has not got to do with emotions, but lack of proofs.

of course that's not what i'm saying.

i agree a lot with phaedrus, actually, on a lot of things. i would just love to see him put himself in another's shoes when he speaks to them about what he is about to say to them.

i understand that truth is not always something that can be proved. we can know something without knowing how or why we know it, but that doesn't mean we don't know it. that kind of knowing cannot be proved.

[Phaedrus]

I don't think so. His theory might be right, but it is only one of many different theories.

Only one of many conflicting theories can be true.

I will never believe in definiteness the way the he teaches. phaedrus argues that humans are definitely one of the E-types from birth to death. He might be right, I won't argue that, but he can't know for sure, and he can't call it a universal truth.

I call it a universal truth. Did you see? I could!

We just don't know that. If he knows, then he needs to prove it, not state it. It has not got to do with emotions, but lack of proofs.

Like so many others on this forum and elsewhere you confuse truth with knowledge. You simply don't understand the meaning of the concept truth. Learn it -- from one of my many posts where I have explained it in depth, or from a book on semantics, or from the Internet. I don't care how you do it, but please learn how to use concepts correctly.

[tereg]

thanks tereg, that helps. you still see it as something that comes from the outside of the person, that helps it grow. yes?

Hmm. I think it can come externally prompted sources that bring to light sought after potential, but I think it can also come from introspection and finding it yourself as well. It's there if you want to find it.

Also, I want to make it clear that I don't go out of my way to help someone see their potential. They either have to desire it first or if I do decide to approach the subject, I will do it in a "What do you think about this?" way. I don't make people decide to do things or tell people what they should decide, I just show them the options.

[dbmmama]

like in your avatar. :-)

in a way, yes this piece is channeled art of Archangel Raphael. i also do channeled art of humans souls. in every moment, in our human experience, we are the manifestation of Light shining through...i believe we each "chose" our human life on a certain level...now im getting into my deep spiritual beliefs of existance. i better be careful or someone might slap my hand again, like i am a little child in need of punishing.

[dbmmama]

Hmm. I think it can come externally prompted sources that bring to light sought after potential, but I think it can also come from introspection and finding it yourself as well. It's there if you want to find it.

Also, I want to make it clear that I don't go out of my way to help someone see their potential. They either have to desire it first or if I do decide to approach the subject, I will do it in a "What do you think about this?" way. I don't make people decide to do things or tell people what they should decide, I just show them the options.

i'm a little different. i don't believe in showing people the options. i believe they already KNOW the options within themselves. it is my job to ALLOW those options to shine forth and express in their human life, whatever those options look and feel like, even if i do not agree with them.

[dbmmama]

can an SEE be a 7?

[Phaedrus]

can an SEE be a 7?

Just maybe. Not TOTALLY ruled out, but not a perfect match either. Type 7 is -- in essence -- an much more of an intuitive type than a sensory. But is it really relevant? You are not an SEE.

[Phaedrus]

Do you know what type she is?

No. But she is no SEE, that's pretty certain.