enneagram type for dbmmama

[dbmmama]

Well, I'm a bulldoze as well, and I'm not afraid of confrontations as in a quarrel. I don't fit the "peacelover"-box either. But I have the 9-problem, in that I want harmony in me, and I avoid, in a lot of skillful ways, to lose that harmony. To me you sound like that as well, you just chose other ways to "escape" stress, and other things stress you. I still feel as though it's stress you are escaping, and if so, that's a 9-personality. I might be wrong, and you'll have to find this yourself, but be honest with yourself, as in HONEST, not saying what others think or what others might want to hear. What do YOU think is your problem? Again, the fact that you talk about what others might say points to 9....

You can be anything, but I've read that if you can identify with a lot of the enneagram types, you're probably 9.



That's behavior-description. You need to tap into WHY you are all over the place. It can be really hard, at least it was for me. My "fixation" was kind of hidden to me, and I had never expressed it in that way before. I always thought my problem was different, but a lot of things became clear to me when I grasped the idea. However, I still don't like the enneagram too much.... I'll use it to develop, but I will not agree to "be" a type 9 and only that. I'm so much more. And not all of that.


These are longings, I have similar ones. They are not fixations. That's what you'll have to find.

This is a good enneagram page, I think. It contains good explanations. If you haven't already read it, maybe you'll find help here?
http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e1428...position=36:36

And the classical enneagram test in this page actually typed me more or less correctly, as the ONLY test I've taken, so if you haven't tried it, I recommend it :
http://eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/dotest.php

And cheer up! It makes me feel all non-harmonic sensing your frustration....

i'm not sure....right now. i fixate on my longings, then i bulldoze and don't understand why others don't like me because i go right for what i want without apologies. then, others (peaceful, nonconfrontationals, which make up a lot of the moms around me) think i'm too aggressive, too "full of myself". that doesn't feel good to not be liked, so, i back down and act too passive for who i am and then that doesn't feel good either.

my "problem" is that i care too much what other people think of me. i want to be and feel free to think for myself about everything, which i do but do not always "voice" it. i want to feel free to voice it, express myself, without worrying about what others think. while at the same time not be disrespectful of others.

i'll read a bit more. otherwise, i have to get off of this for a while...

[dbmmama]

If you are HONEST with yourself, could it be that you are actually less aggressive than most people, but you feel so guilty whenever you are a little forceful, and you end up over thinking it, making yourself BELIEVE you are more bulldozing than others? If so, that is typical 9 behavior, isn't it?
And if you were really a bulldozer, do you think you'd think you are too aggressive? Wouldn't you just bulldoze on without caring? I'm probably less bulldozing than most, but when I am, I can be aggressive, as I feel I need to justify going my own ways. People can comment on that aggression, and I'll end up thinking I'm all other than peaceful. I understand that I shouldn't be "black&white" like that. I should be assertive, but not aggressive. If you look into WHY you are aggressive, maybe you'll find the type 1 voice telling you you should be nicer and the type 9 -persona telling you you need to go this way to find your harmony, and then you have a 9w1-conflict going on, coming out as aggression? At least that's how it is for me. I need to understand that it's OK to have my ways, but I should do it without aggression.




I can still see 9w1 here.... At least a "peaceful" type with a more aggressive and self-punishing wing. Maybe the bulldozer needs to come out to bulldoze not so much to go through other people, but to get through yourself??? It's your way of surviving and getting things done when being a "peace-lover"??

i now we are a lot alike, but there is still something different. i think it may be in this...

i do jump into aggression when defending myself. it just seems that i have had to defend myself a lot in my life. i would think a 9 would go with the flow more and not feel the need to always be on the defensive, be more open to allowing... i've been way more on the controlling side than the allowing side.

i feel guilty in being more aggressive naturally because my mom is and i know we are the same, whatever that is. i witnessed her being a very pushy person and felt the push, so, i pushed back. with enuf self awareness, i realized that we were the same and i didn't want to be as closeminded as she about pushing children into what SHE thought was right for them. i wanted to allow my children to show me in their own development and growth and potential, what was right for them.

i'm not sure if the allowing was what was natural and so i took that road or if i was/am naturally aggressive and just wanted to not be like my mom because it felt so crappy to have someone else tell me what i wanted, liked, to do, to be, etc... her and i fought and fought and fought until i finally realized i needed to love her no matter what. i didn't "fight" at school, i was too selfconscious. but, i let it all out at home.

and then it finally happened. she told me this past week, for the first time, she RESPECTED MY OPINION AND MY WAY OF DOING THINGS. WHOA! That's what i wanted all along. for her to acknowledge that my way was ok because it was my way, even if it was different than hers.

i want to be loved and know i am ok being me, whatever "me" is. that's what i do for my kids. that's what i have done with coaching clients...

i'm leaning toward 4w3 or 7w6............?

[dbmmama]

whoa...
You're telling the story of my life...

If you end up 4w3 or 7w6 I'll have to reconsider my type

heehee! we'll see.... whatever it is, yes, i knew from your first post we were the "same".

[dbmmama]

mimosa,

does this ring true for you?

I am controlling about allowing.

[dbmmama]

Not sure...
You'd have to give me an example.

I am impulsive, and I like myself better when I am, but I'm also striving for control. Over myself that is. I DON'T want to control anybody else. Rather the opposite. My control is about myself and my inner feelings, etc. Hard to explain. It's not something I usually talk about or even admit to.

exactly, me too.

we're INFj

Fi base is our controlling of OURSELVES. Se polr, not wanting to control OTHERS and we get defensive and bewildered when someone else tries to to us.

i am now pretty darn sure of this!!!!

now i wonder which subtype is the "stronger" of the two. we both have that. plus we have the added benefit of age and wisdom with age. wisdom, being both of our "goals."

i'm feeling this. let is gel a bit before you post back. i'm gonna be gone the rest of the day anyway...

[dbmmama]

HEY! I told you you could challenge my enneagram type. Don't mess with my IEE-personality.... I'm just getting used to it. Can't I be IEE and you EII...? :wink:

INFj-description: They sound like angels, and I'm no angel... haha. I'll think about it...... And I'm going to sleep now. I'll do some more reading tomorrow...

alright, alright. i won't mess with your IEE.

i am EII though. i have a strong impulsive Ne though. and i'm still back to 1w2. it's the only one that goes DEEP enough into my psyche. the part of me i really don't tell others about...yet, here i am on this board. and it still allows me to go to 4 and 7, which i do.

i like the description of the HEALTHY 1s. that's me at my best. Lightworker **Illumined Mother** guardian angel to all i "touch". i just haven't been in a healthy place lately. it's been a lot of stress taking physical care of my mil, emotional too, because she doesn't actually like me. anyway, now i know what i need to do to get my "mojo" back.

rmcnew is infj, right? and when i watched the video of him on his website and i showed my husband, asking him if we were alike. he said, "yes and now turn it off." because that is me at my most selfconscious place. i even did a video and when i watched it, it looked like that and i freaked out. i'm much cooler on here and irl when i'm actually talking to a person, but a camcorder....yowsa! i gotta have that people, one-on-one connection, baby!

i typed as INFJ in MB for years, but got messed up when the functions were different in socionics. and then just cause i'm outgoing NOW in my life, everyone kept telling me i was an extrotim.

anyway...... EII, 1w2 sx/so

now to figure out my hubby.

[Phaedrus]

i like the description of the HEALTHY 1s. that's me at my best.

Maybe you are kidding yourself by wishful thinking.

rmcnew is infj, right?

No, Reuben is an ENFp.

and when i watched the video of him on his website and i showed my husband, asking him if we were alike. he said, "yes and now turn it off." because that is me at my most selfconscious place. i even did a video and when i watched it, it looked like that and i freaked out. i'm much cooler on here and irl when i'm actually talking to a person, but a camcorder....yowsa! i gotta have that people, one-on-one connection, baby!

Your style of writing is very non-INFj.

i do jump into aggression when defending myself.

That's totally non-characteristic on 1s. 1s do not want to show aggression. They are restrained and "correct" in most situations, even though they can feel the anger within them.

it just seems that i have had to defend myself a lot in my life. i would think a 9 would go with the flow more and not feel the need to always be on the defensive, be more open to allowing... i've been way more on the controlling side than the allowing side.

What does the need to be controlling have to do with aggression?

i feel guilty in being more aggressive naturally because my mom is and i know we are the same, whatever that is. i witnessed her being a very pushy person and felt the push, so, i pushed back. with enuf self awareness, i realized that we were the same and i didn't want to be as closeminded as she about pushing children into what SHE thought was right for them. i wanted to allow my children to show me in their own development and growth and potential, what was right for them.

If both you and your mom are openly pushy and aggressive, and you are both the same type(s), then you are probably not 1s.

Whatever you correct type is, dbmmama, you come across as much more extraverted both in style of writing and in how you describe your real life behaviour than any INFj I can imagine. If you really are an INFj, I have to modify my conception of INFjs in general. That doesn't show that you cannot be an INFj, but I suggest that you think twice about it.

[Phaedrus]

then, i'm either ENFp E7 or INFj E1. i came up INFJ in MB for many years before coming to socionics.

If you only have two options, and and you don't know FOR SURE whether you are an ENFp E7 or an INFj E1, then you are terribly lost in your understanding of the types. If you understand the types, you can NEVER EVER be in doubt between those two alternatives.

[Phaedrus]

I am ENFp and I relate a lot to INFj.

If you are an ENFp you can relate to a lot in INFj type descriptions, and you can relate to a lot in INFj typical attitudes, ways of thinking, values, etc. But you can NEVER EVER seriously doubt whether you are an ENFp or an INFj, because the ENFp is an extraverted irrational type and the INFj is an introverted rational type. They are totally different in 2 out of 4 dichotomies, and they have totally opposite temperaments (EP and IJ). If you understand the temperaments, it is insane not to be sure whether you are EP or IP. If you still doubt after having understood the temperaments, you are probably neither EP nor IJ.

I'm probably E-type 9w1 and I relate to both E1 and E7 as well (along with a lot of the other E-types).

That only makes sense if you don't understand the temperaments, because a typical E1 has an IJ temperament, and a typical E7 has an EP temperament. You probably haven't studied the Enneagram types deeply enough to understand them correctly. E1s and E7s are VERY different.

So either that means I have more fixations than others, or it means that my own fixation is somewhat invisible (at least to me).

No, it means that you don't understand the types yet.

dbmmama's confusion makes perfect sense to me.

But objectively speaking it doesn't.

I have to say that in my eyes, after studying the enneagram, I don't have a lot of confidence in all parts of it.

Well, then you just have to study it some more. And remember not to focus too much on the details (because the whole Enneagram system is inherently flawed).

The enneagram descriptions seem to try to explain behavior when it can't.

Correct. Its theoretical explanations are wrong.

[aka-kitsune]

That's totally non-characteristic on 1s. 1s do not want to show aggression. They are restrained and "correct" in most situations, even though they can feel the anger within them.

Careful. Don't generalize. I have known more than a few 1s and they can most certainly express their anger when they feel justified (usually screaming obscenities in traffic ). Most of the time, they exercise an overall restraint, although the anger then often manifests in criticism, sarcasm or another kind of sublimation. Either way, it's right below the surface and easily observed in their interactions. I overhear a 1w2 at work frequently speaking with her parents on the phone in a tone of clear contempt. It's palpable.

Where an 8s anger can be considered explosive and "hot", 1s are "cold" and stoic.

[Phaedrus]

Careful. Don't generalize.

Wrong. It's all about generalizing. If you dont' generalize, you can never understand the types, and you can never determine a person's type.

Where an 8s anger can be considered explosive and "hot", 1s are "cold" and stoic.

I agree with that. But dbmmama has not described her anger and aggressiveness as in any way like "cold" or "stoic, has she?

[Phaedrus]

Oh, I'm pretty certain when it comes to my EP-temperament. But I can easily understand how someone would be insecure. You seem very square about this thing, I guess you're not EP yourself...?

Once you understand what the temperaments and the four dichotomies are about it is simply impossible not to know which of two opposing temperaments you are (not). You can hesitate between one dichotomy but not two. If you are EP you could perhaps be slightly unsure whether you might be EJ or IP, but you wouldn't dream of thinking that you might be IJ.

I am IP myself. And the only other temperament I have ever thought could be an alternative to that is IJ. I have always been close to 100 % sure that I am an introvert.

I'll give you an example... A person could have had some very wild and outgoing social years with a lot of flexibility and then some very calm and socially isolated years with a lot of focus. He might ask himself if the years of isolation showed his real temperament or if he's a more flexible type. Then he might ask if the isolation was caused by an undiscovered depression, or if the party-years were caused by circumstantial factors, like him being a student not having any obligations... I know people like that, not understanding what temperament is their "real".

It think that it is more likely that an extravert doesn't know that he or she is an extravert than that an introvert doesn't know that he or she is an introvert. Introverts seem to tend to know themselves better than extraverts do.

I also know an IJ that is loud and social and round. He's actually INFj. But if you asked anyone, I'm sure they'd perceive him EP-temperamental. I didn't believe in his IJ-temperament until I had known him for a really long time. Now I'm certain.

And how can you be so certain about that? What are your determining criteria? What is your typing method(s)?

We are human beings, and we change all the time.

We are human beings, and we almost never change. We are what we are.

It's not so easy to know why. To me it seems you cannot grasp that a theory isn't definite and that people's souls are not solid boxes that fit perfectly in the theory (due to Te-creative?). I don't buy your crap, though. You'll have to convince me with facts, not theories. (And it's not a fact what a theory says. Show me with real people)

I don't buy theories unless the correspond with reality. It's all about the facts of human nature.

What about the theory saying that 9s sometimes can recognize the motivations of all types but their own...?

Well, that only means that they can't be objective. So we should not trust their judgment.

I guess it's totally out of the question that my observation is valid along with yours....? Maybe we discuss different things.

Possible. Hard to tell for sure.

You discuss how to fit dbmmama into a model, I discuss how a person might not fit very well in a man-made model, and thus may have a hard time projecting into it.

And I'll totally forget that you didn't provide even ONE piece of useful information when it comes to HOW you type someone that is uncertain still AFTER studying.

You can be uncertain about some aspects, but you can not be uncertain about EP and IJ. Period.

To make my own post a little more useful than yours, I'll give you my impression of what type you are based on your last answer. I think you are INTp.

Correct observation. I am most definitely an INTp.

[aka-kitsune]

Wrong. It's all about generalizing. If you dont' generalize, you can never understand the types, and you can never determine a person's type.

Perhaps what I meant is more along the lines of don't suggest "absolutes", like "Ones don't express anger". Because they do. All types do. I find the overgeneralizations by anyone in typological discussions to be annoying. Too many times people will justify why they are or aren't a type based on superficial traits rather than core motivations.

Like, "All Fours are artistes." They're not really. They might all somehow aspire to an artistic bent (ie: an aesthetic), but they aren't all recognizably artists.

I agree with that. But dbmmama has not described her anger and aggressiveness as in any way like "cold" or "stoic, has she?

Actually, she sounds Threeish to me. Very motivated and assertive.

[dbmmama]

well, how do you do. i come back to find a lovely discussion going on.

i'm actually a bit more confused now anyway. i'll ponder more and see what percolates to the top!

[dbmmama]

there.

infp, 4w3 sx/so

[Phaedrus]

Well.. That is, in my opinion, a very narrow-minded way to see the world.

That is an irrelevant comment, because what I say happens to be the objective truth of the matter. We introverts have a natural advantage over extraverts when it comes to knowing our own personality. We focus on it, whereas extraverts focus more on the external world. And what I say here is trivial and common knowledge in typology. You can't dispute it.

An opposite (and equally narrow-minded) way is to see this is to say that introverts are so certain because they don't understand the world as well, and since extroverts understand the world better, they know that things are not as black&white as you say.

That is not what I am talking about. Introverts almost always know that they are introverts. Some extraverts incorrectly believe that they are introverts (usually ENFps and ENTps).

However, I think this is more of a maturity thing. I think people might have bigger problems typing themselves the more mature they are, as their experiences will be more diverse.

It all depends on your knowledge, your analytical ability, and your ability to be objective.

Bullshit. That's ridiculous, and I don't believe it.

It's the truth, and if you don't believe it you are narrow-minded, prejudiced, and ignorant.

What is the purpose of the enneagram if not to help you break old patterns?

The purpose is the same as it is with Socionics: to get to know who you really are.

A question to illustrate change: Every cell in you body has changed since your birth. Are you still the same?

The only thing that is relevant to us here is your type. And your type is still the same.

And what about people with multiple-personality-disorders? Have they not changed? People do change. All the time. Some change more than others.

Yes, people change -- but their types and their behaviours don't.

And it means typing gets harder.

Only if you don't understand what is relevant to correct typing.

There are more theories about this than yours, you know.

Irrelevant. I am only interested in true theories. And they are not my theories. And besides, I focus on the facts much more than I focus on the theories that try to explain the facts.

Don't be so certain. You can't know.

I know.

Only if it's true for you, it doesn't prove it's true for everybody.

Total nonsense. Stop being so damn stupid and ignorant, please. If it is true for one person, it is true for every person. The truth is not dependent on the individual. A truth is a truth, and it is always objective -- never subjective. Period.

So, if other people say they don't find the enneagram corresponding to reality, then they are wrong, but not the theory.

I have already said that the Enneagram is a false theory, and it is a false theory -- but the Enneagram type descriptions correspond to real groups of people just as the socionic type descriptions do.

That's lack of respect.

Respect!? What the hell has respect has to do with anything here? I respect the objective truth, and the people who disrespect the objective truth can go to hell.

That's offensive again.

I don't care if it's offensive. It's totally irrelvant whether it is offensive or not. I state the truth.

[Phaedrus]

Actually, she sounds Threeish to me. Very motivated and assertive.

So then we agree that she doesn't sound Oneish. And that was my point.

[macysmama]

there.

infp, 4w3 sx/so

Yeah, my sis has something going on for sure with the 1,4 mix, definitely not a 2, I thought she was a 4, and maybe a 1. Even her perfectionism with understanding these theories illustrates this. She is searching for her "true" identity but is perfectionistic about it. LOL She wants to get it perfect! And also wants it to point to her being an individual, not actually fitting into one of these types. I think she wants to be the 17th type! The dbmama type. hehe

[Sirena]

there.

infp, 4w3 sx/so

you go girl!

[macysmama]

I just started looking at Etypes and I think I am a 3. Are there any other 3's out there? I succeed at everything I try just naturally, without much effort. I think 3's are hard to spot, as we take on the definition of success of our family/friends, which could look so many different ways. I wondered how other 3's figured out this is their base and what their definition of success looks like. Thanks for any imput!

[Sirena]

That is not what I am talking about. Introverts almost always know that they are introverts. Some extraverts incorrectly believe that they are introverts (usually ENFps and ENTps).

I tend to agree with this, although I have had an ISTp tell me that he always saw himself as an extrovert, though not a normal kind of extrovert. Do you have a theory as to why it might be that some ENFps and ENTps have a tendency to think they are introverts?

Yeah, my sis has something going on for sure with the 1,4 mix, definitely not a 2, I thought she was a 4, and maybe a 1. Even her perfectionism with understanding these theories illustrates this. She is searching for her "true" identity but is perfectionistic about it. LOL She wants to get it perfect! And also wants it to point to her being an individual, not actually fitting into one of these types. I think she wants to be the 17th type! The dbmama type. hehe

Hey there! Good to see you back. Have you given your type any more thought?

[dbmmama]

Yeah, my sis has something going on for sure with the 1,4 mix, definitely not a 2, I thought she was a 4, and maybe a 1. Even her perfectionism with understanding these theories illustrates this. She is searching for her "true" identity but is perfectionistic about it. LOL She wants to get it perfect! And also wants it to point to her being an individual, not actually fitting into one of these types. I think she wants to be the 17th type! The dbmama type. hehe

hey you, what you are doing sneaking in and sabotaging this great image i have going on?!!!! a whackjob, for sure!

don't listen to her, she's just as "nuts" as me!!! heeeheeee!!!

[dbmmama]

I just started looking at Etypes and I think I am a 3. Are there any other 3's out there? I succeed at everything I try just naturally, without much effort. I think 3's are hard to spot, as we take on the definition of success of our family/friends, which could look so many different ways. I wondered how other 3's figured out this is their base and what their definition of success looks like. Thanks for any imput!

e,

copy this over and make a new thread. you may get more pointed answers....

lv

[Phaedrus]

I see. You are the one with all the answers to the human psyche.

No, I only have some answers to the human psyche. If I had them all, I would probably lose interest in socionic discussions.

I don't agree with you, so I guess truth is subjective after all.

No, truth is still objective. You don't understand the concept truth, that's all.

[Phaedrus]

I tend to agree with this, although I have had an ISTp tell me that he always saw himself as an extrovert, though not a normal kind of extrovert. Do you have a theory as to why it might be that some ENFps and ENTps have a tendency to think they are introverts?

Yes, but it's not my theory, because it has been pointed out by others, for example David Keirsey. They confuse their Intuition with Introversion.

[dbmmama]

Hi Phaedrus. You doing ok?

you're priceless. i dig the shit out of you dolphin.

(i reread that, it didn't sound right. oh well, you know what i mean. )

[tereg]

@Phaedrus: I guess this is bit of a philosophical question.

Is it possible for a person who emphatically states "This is the truth." to be misled by improper evidence? (i.e. the evidence used to reach the conclusion was faulty)

The truth is the culmination of the evidence and facts. This is not to say that it is such that a person will just blindly see false evidence. I'm just asking, is it possible for it to happen? Would it not be the case then (if the previous answer is no, because a person grounded in truth would never accept or be tricked into believing false evidence) that two people can state at the same time "This is the truth." and be saying the complete opposite of the other? One person must be wrong. Who is wrong? Is it the one who misinterpreted the facts? Is it the one who was deceived by false evidence? Who is it?

Is truth the perception and interpretation of the evidence and facts? Can one come to the truth without truly applying some sort of interpretation of said facts and evidence?

[Sirena]

Yes, but it's not my theory, because it has been pointed out by others, for example David Keirsey. They confuse their Intuition with Introversion.

Thanks! Do you know where I can find more information? This is how it has been for me, so I am interested in learning more.

[dbmmama]

@Phaedrus: I guess this is bit of a philosophical question.

Is it possible for a person who emphatically states "This is the truth." to be misled by improper evidence? (i.e. the evidence used to reach the conclusion was faulty)

The truth is the culmination of the evidence and facts. This is not to say that it is a person will just blindly see false evidence. I'm just asking, is it possible for it to happen? Would it not be the case then (if the previous answer is no, because a person grounded in truth would never accept or be tricked into believing false evidence) that two people can state at the same time "This is the truth." and be saying the complete opposite of the other? One person must be wrong. Who is wrong? Is it the one who misinterpreted the facts? Is it the one who was deceived by false evidence? Who is it?

Is truth the perception and interpretation of the evidence and facts? Can one come to the truth without truly applying some sort of interpretation of said facts and evidence?

bravo, bravo!!!! (munches on popcorn)

[dbmmama]

No. It wasn't supposed to be funny. I'm not trying to make fun of Phaedrus. But I am kind of worried about him.

i knew that. and you're priceless because you care and show it in ways that i find "cool."

[Phaedrus]

Hi Phaedrus. You doing ok?

Hi, dolphin. Is there anything suggesting that I wouldn't be doing ok? Are you doing ok yourself?

[dbmmama]

@Phaedrus: I guess this is bit of a philosophical question.

Is it possible for a person who emphatically states "This is the truth." to be misled by improper evidence? (i.e. the evidence used to reach the conclusion was faulty)

The truth is the culmination of the evidence and facts. This is not to say that it is such that a person will just blindly see false evidence. I'm just asking, is it possible for it to happen? Would it not be the case then (if the previous answer is no, because a person grounded in truth would never accept or be tricked into believing false evidence) that two people can state at the same time "This is the truth." and be saying the complete opposite of the other? One person must be wrong. Who is wrong? Is it the one who misinterpreted the facts? Is it the one who was deceived by false evidence? Who is it?

Is truth the perception and interpretation of the evidence and facts? Can one come to the truth without truly applying some sort of interpretation of said facts and evidence?

i know i'm taking this kinda lighthearted, only because i'm normally the one who will go back and forth like this. it's nice to not be the one doingit.

but, i do agree with you tereg.

[tereg]

Addendum to my previous post.

Eventually the truth does come out. But the process of reaching the truth can be scattered, including being deceived by the evidence. This is not to say that the deception will not come out into the light in the end, but one could say through the entire process: "This is the truth." And they would be able to say this because the evidence and facts are what lead a person to the truth, edit: and at every moment that a person decides to make the statement "This is the truth." is the culmination of the evidence and facts up to that point. But the realization of the truth can vary until ultimately the truth is revealed. When that happens, *shrugs*, it has to happen at some point, but to definitively say when it happens, I can't predict that.

[Phaedrus]

Could you explain a little more about what you mean by saying the whole Enneagram system is inherently flawed?

There are 16 types, not 9. Most Enneagram explanations are based on false assumptions, like the implicit assumption that nurture is more important than nature in shaping our personalities. The Enneagram is simply not the correct theory on human behaviour.

[dbmmama]

There are 16 types, not 9. Most Enneagram explanations are based on false assumptions, like the implicit assumption that nurture is more important than nature in shaping our personalities. The Enneagram is simply not the correct theory on human behaviour.

it's not that it's not correct, it's just a different ANGLE. enneagram is based on the dynamics of an individuals that DO change. while socionics is based on the statics that don't change, the lens we see the world through.

[dbmmama]

Addendum to my previous post.

Eventually the truth does come out. But the process of reaching the truth can be scattered, including being deceived by the evidence. This is not to say that the deception will not come out into the light in the end, but one could say through the entire process: "This is the truth." And they would be able to say this because the evidence and facts are what lead a person to the truth, edit: and at every moment that a person decides to make the statement "This is the truth." is the culmination of the evidence and facts up to that point. But the realization of the truth can vary until ultimately the truth is revealed. When that happens, *shrugs*, it has to happen at some point, but to definitively say when it happens, I can't predict that.

bravo, bravo again!!

[Phaedrus]

@Phaedrus: I guess this is bit of a philosophical question.

Is it possible for a person who emphatically states "This is the truth." to be misled by improper evidence? (i.e. the evidence used to reach the conclusion was faulty)

Yes, of course that's possible. It is not even very uncommon.

The truth is the culmination of the evidence and facts.

No, it's not. Truth is a property of those propositions that correspond with reality. Evidence is relevant to knowledge, but truth does not require evidence.

This is not to say that it is such that a person will just blindly see false evidence. I'm just asking, is it possible for it to happen? Would it not be the case then (if the previous answer is no, because a person grounded in truth would never accept or be tricked into believing false evidence) that two people can state at the same time "This is the truth." and be saying the complete opposite of the other?

Yes.

One person must be wrong.

Yes, because truth is objective. If two person's contradict each, only one of them can be right.

Who is wrong? Is it the one who misinterpreted the facts? Is it the one who was deceived by false evidence? Who is it?

The person who is having a false belief.

Is truth the perception and interpretation of the evidence and facts?

No. Truth is correspondence with reality. A proposition is true if it corresponds with a fact.

Can one come to the truth without truly applying some sort of interpretation of said facts and evidence?

You can come to the truth by guessing. If I say that the moon is a blue cheeze, and you say that the moon is not a blue cheeze, we both know that one of us must be right and the other person must be wrong, because I say "A" and you say "Not A". Either "A" or "Not A" is necessarily a true proposition (and the other is then a false proposition). This is simple logic, which you cannot dispute once you have understood it. A person who disputes what I say here is either mentally insane or an imbecile.

[Phaedrus]

Thanks! Do you know where I can find more information? This is how it has been for me, so I am interested in learning more.

Keirsey mentions it briefly in for example Please Understand Me II, and I have observed the phenomenon myself in my typings of real life people. I know at least one ENTp and one ENFp who have believed (at least for a while) that they were introverts.

[Phaedrus]

enneagram is based on the dynamics of an individuals that DO change. while socionics is based on the statics that don't change, the lens we see the world through.

No.

[marooned]

I'm alright, I guess. Kind of tired, though. Sleeping helps alleviate the dull ache a bit. I might do a liver cleanse this weekend, to help move the prednisone out of my system. It mostly involves drinking alot of olive oil and epsom salts. Ug.