Se PoLR of INFjs and INTjs

[lemontrees]

i always feel awkward when i stand and wait b/c i feel like I'm asserting silent psychological pressure w/o meaning to. sometimes people literally don't notice you, then they feel bad when they notice you, but it's your fault for not being politely a little louder. but then I also feel bad being too brusque.

#life

#so rough

#the brain can make a dilemma out of anything

[uniden]

It's difficult to write about Se-polr because Se-polr is often thought of as difficulty putting one's foot down. Whether in decisions or standing up for oneself. When difficulty asserting your boundaries and needs is a more universal concern. I made my post hoping that by sharing some of my own stories and difficulties maybe we can get a little closer to the truth. Maybe with enough of these examples from the Se-polr people on the board or in our own lives we can get a sorta gestalt of what it really is.

[Beautiful sky]

I can endure difficult and harsh environments for a long time, stoically. I think anyone who realizes the toll that such harshness takes would either fight back, which I don't do, or quit for greener pastures like ESE...someyimes bothered by unpleasant things.

[ClownsandEntropy]

...the LII was an exceptionally diplomatic and gentle person, but despite that (or perhaps because of it) he was essentially bullied, badmouthed unfairly, and eventually kicked out. I have to say, the LII was pretty oblivious sometimes, and would just try to diplomatically reason with people when he really needed to take a stand and be assertive. He was just not capable of it...

It's interesting cos I've just gained leadership in this group known for conflict, bitchiness and in-fighting. It's partially just the way decisions are made, but sometimes it moves from arguing about things to hurting people's feelings. I basically was able to get this leadership role because the previous person who held my position really advocated for me and he suffered massive backlash because he had to do it all himself (I didn't realise! I thought he was exaggerating and everyone was actually reasonable! [/self-justification]). Anyway, it's one of those things I'm gradually realise I need to do at points. Very clearly give three reasons I believe something and say "I know you all don't agree, but that's what we're going to do."

Suz, you're completely right that my default would be to be very diplomatic and gently (but obstinately) try to come to an agreement about this.

There should be LII help guides. As if they're not a thing, the market would be massive.

[The Exception]

@Uniden I wouldn't have too much difficulty standing up for myself if I was overcharged for something. If it was just 10 or 20 cents, I probably wouldn't bother or even notice but if it was a couple of dollars or more, I'd probably say something. I'd still feel a little uneasy disrupting the whole line but I'd still bring up the error because fair is fair.

The Se PoLR might play out a little differently in LII than in EII but I think the tendency towards passivity is still there. Being an H subtype, probably magnifies that somewhat. I am quite passive in other ways.

For example, I'm really bad at self-promotion and 'putting myself out there.' I'm in a part-time on-call job where opportunities for growth and professional development are very limited unless you're a full-time benefitted employee. For several years I just literally waited for things to happen, for opportunities to come to me. If I try hard and do good work, eventually people will notice. But it doesn't always play out that way. It took me a real long time to make that connection. Finally, when I felt 'at the end of my rope' out of frustration, I mentioned this to the manager. She sympathized with me but told me there wasn't much she could do on her end either to help part-timers like me. I was told, it would require a major structural change in the hierarchy of the organization itself and the policies and procedures involving employees with my status and what they can or can't do. I have zero ability in influencing the higher-ups in the organization to listen. I have no idea how to navigate the power structure. I tend to just throw out ideas to whoever is willing to listen because I don't know any better.

Turns out I have to make my own opportunities. Because I'm not getting the type of experience I want in my current position, I have to get it elsewhere. I know what I'd like to be doing I have alot of good ideas but how to implement it, I don't have much clue.


Also, I can't 'make' people do things, especially if they don't want to do them. It just goes so much against my nature. I hate being made to do things myself so I naturally assume others do too. Unlike the EIIs, it isn't always from a concern not to offend or hurt someone's feelings (although it can be sometimes). If someone is truly being an unreasonable idiot, I'm not going to care too much about their feelings. It's more the case, that I know I can't persuade them to see the validity of my point of view. For example, in my job at the library, I have to see to it that customers are obeying certain codes of conduct. This could be something as simple as not eating food or something larger like not yelling out cuss words while talking on the cell phone. When they don't follow the code of conduct, my approach is to explain calmly and logically why they should not be doing that. Alot of people though don't listen well to reason. It's all about what they personally feel right now. They are resistant to listening to me and they just get more belligerent. When someone gets really belligerent like that, I kind of 'shut down' in a way because it's hard for me to process that sort of information in any sort of constructive manner. I'm very poor at handling emotional backlash directed right at me. I either just end up giving into them to shut them up and so I can go back to my own business or I go too far in the opposite direction, like an ultimatum: "Do this now or leave!" It's very difficult to find that happy medium and have the right amount of authoritativeness. I hate this part about my job and there isn't always another staff member nearby to 'do it for me.'

[ClownsandEntropy]

So Se people are:

• Reluctant to stick up for themselves
• Don't like too many rules
• Don't like to disrupt the flow
• Don't like to self-promote(?)
• Don't like to assert themselves - instead they try to be gentle and convince them "politely"

is what I've seen so far.

Also, passiveness has been brought up a few times. I always associated this with my high neuroticism because neuroticism is linked to disliking making decisions, but do other Se-POLRers have high neuroticism/dislike making decisions?

[The Exception]

So Se people are:

• Reluctant to stick up for themselves
• Don't like too many rules
• Don't like to disrupt the flow
• Don't like to self-promote(?)
• Don't like to assert themselves - instead they try to be gentle and convince them "politely"

is what I've seen so far.

Also, passiveness has been brought up a few times. I always associated this with my high neuroticism because neuroticism is linked to disliking making decisions, but do other Se-POLRers have high neuroticism/dislike making decisions?

I think this is a good summary.

I think I have an average level of neuroticism. According to Big-5 sorts of tests, I score in the middle of the neuroticism scale. I always feel more neurotic in the inside though than what I show on the outside. People generally see me as a calm, easygoing person.

Regarding decisions, I'm not so good with them. I'm not comfortable being in situations where I'm forced to make alot of decisions- especially quick decisions that I don't have adequate time to think through. I also don't like making major decisions that impact huge numbers of people. What if it doesn't work out well? I don't want to get blamed for it and deal with all of the emotional backlash that results.

Minor, personal decisions are okay, like what to eat for dinner but sometimes, I can even be rather indecisive on that. Major, life changing decisions are difficult.

I'm starting to think maybe I'm more of an enneagram 9 than a 5. I have alot of both.

[Hays]

@Uniden I wouldn't have too much difficulty standing up for myself if I was overcharged for something. If it was just 10 or 20 cents, I probably wouldn't bother or even notice but if it was a couple of dollars or more, I'd probably say something. I'd still feel a little uneasy disrupting the whole line but I'd still bring up the error because fair is fair.

The Se PoLR might play out a little differently in LII than in EII but I think the tendency towards passivity is still there. Being an H subtype, probably magnifies that somewhat. I am quite passive in other ways.

For example, I'm really bad at self-promotion and 'putting myself out there.' I'm in a part-time on-call job where opportunities for growth and professional development are very limited unless you're a full-time benefitted employee. For several years I just literally waited for things to happen, for opportunities to come to me. If I try hard and do good work, eventually people will notice. But it doesn't always play out that way. It took me a real long time to make that connection. Finally, when I felt 'at the end of my rope' out of frustration, I mentioned this to the manager. She sympathized with me but told me there wasn't much she could do on her end either to help part-timers like me. I was told, it would require a major structural change in the hierarchy of the organization itself and the policies and procedures involving employees with my status and what they can or can't do. I have zero ability in influencing the higher-ups in the organization to listen. I have no idea how to navigate the power structure. I tend to just throw out ideas to whoever is willing to listen because I don't know any better.

Turns out I have to make my own opportunities. Because I'm not getting the type of experience I want in my current position, I have to get it elsewhere. I know what I'd like to be doing I have alot of good ideas but how to implement it, I don't have much clue.


Also, I can't 'make' people do things, especially if they don't want to do them. It just goes so much against my nature. I hate being made to do things myself so I naturally assume others do too. Unlike the EIIs, it isn't always from a concern not to offend or hurt someone's feelings (although it can be sometimes). If someone is truly being an unreasonable idiot, I'm not going to care too much about their feelings. It's more the case, that I know I can't persuade them to see the validity of my point of view. For example, in my job at the library, I have to see to it that customers are obeying certain codes of conduct. This could be something as simple as not eating food or something larger like not yelling out cuss words while talking on the cell phone. When they don't follow the code of conduct, my approach is to explain calmly and logically why they should not be doing that. Alot of people though don't listen well to reason. It's all about what they personally feel right now. They are resistant to listening to me and they just get more belligerent. When someone gets really belligerent like that, I kind of 'shut down' in a way because it's hard for me to process that sort of information in any sort of constructive manner. I'm very poor at handling emotional backlash directed right at me. I either just end up giving into them to shut them up and so I can go back to my own business or I go too far in the opposite direction, like an ultimatum: "Do this now or leave!" It's very difficult to find that happy medium and have the right amount of authoritativeness. I hate this part about my job and there isn't always another staff member nearby to 'do it for me.'

I relate to everything you wrote above.

[Beautiful sky]

"Is the EII is afraid of physical over-exertion? As an intuitive type, the EII is not inclined to overestimate her capabilities. She is afraid that she won't be able to physically handle her assignments and duties. She is also afraid that she will be put in position of owning something to another person. She fears excessive work loads, fears that she won't finish her work, that she won't fulfill her assignments and responsibilities due to physical or material deficits. She fears that her children won't be fed and taken care of, that her husband will be offended, that she will have to go work the next day feeling exhausted and anxious. These fears are prompted by the positioning of EII's sensing aspects in weak positions."

This It's fear of physical stuff because I can't over extend my energy. I wish I could like my SEE friends who keep busy busy. I die My love is wonderful wonderful man. He says "relax" "stay home baby" "do it tomorrow" He keeps me safe and when I'm home I just do home things and routine keeps my energy maintained.

[ghost of forum past]

Whenever I begin questioning my type (like I am prone to do), I just go to Se-PoLR threads and narrow my options back down to LII and EII because I can relate to most, if not all, of what was said above. I'm passive, oblivious, and rather aloof in most environments, but this is amplified considerably in places where there is lots of physical activity going on and/or lots of chaotic noise. I'm probably slightly more bold near immediate family or close friends, however, where my stubbornness is sometimes expressed, but most of the time I'd rather not bother people.

Do other Se-PoLR types feel uncomfortable in environments with lots of physical activity, loud noise, bright lights, etc.? I'm curious.

[The Exception]

Whenever I begin questioning my type (like I am prone to do), I just go to Se-PoLR threads and narrow my options back down to LII and EII because I can relate to most, if not all, of what was said above. I'm passive, oblivious, and rather aloof in most environments, but this is amplified considerably in places where there is lots of physical activity going on and/or lots of chaotic noise. I'm probably slightly more bold near immediate family or close friends, however, where my stubbornness is sometimes expressed, but most of the time I'd rather not bother people.

Do other Se-PoLR types feel uncomfortable in environments with lots of physical activity, loud noise, bright lights, etc.? I'm curious.

Passive, oblivious, and aloof, that's me in a nutshell.

I've never had issues with bright lights myself.
Physical activity and loud noise doesn't really bother me in itself. What bothers me is when people get uncontrollably loud and boisterous- the energy cannot be contained. Also, sudden loud noises that I can't control can really bother me. Moreso than just a sustained loud noise.

[aixelsyd]

This thread has been very helpful to me. I'm thinking that Se polr is a good possibility for myself. At work, in the cafeteria, there is this bell that sits on top of the counter. It's primary job in life is to be struck when no one is available to help you. Most of the time I won't ring it right away. I will wait until the employee comes back from whatever it is they are doing. There are a few exceptions, like the few times I really am in a hurry or if the employees seems to be really taking their sweet time. I'll wait a good 2 or 3 minutes without any real agitation. Sometimes the pressure of people being in a hurry in line behind me will force me to ring the bell sooner than I otherwise would.

I will often tell people to take their time as well. I hope they won't opt to drag it out, but I don't mind waiting a bit either. I really don't enjoy that feeling of people rushing to get done some task that is of very little importance in the grand scheme of things.

That may have more to do with being considerate than Se PoLR. Having work experience in the service sector, I am also patient and will wait if I see the workers are in the middle of a certain task unless it's routine cleaning which is usually done when things are slow. I don't see impatience and demanding a service right now as being Se related, but Se egos probably won't hesitate too much to request a service, either, unless someone is in the middle of something and a sudden interruption would probably throw them off (again, not really counting cleaning and stocking). But counting money, relaying information between worker and customer, worker and manager, or co-worker (obviously not counting chit chat) I won't usually interrupt because I think it's rude and I understand how annoying it is.

More related to Se PoLR, I think, is difficulties when the external environment becomes chaotic: crowds, many activities occurring all at once, and being in the midst of the fray and having to maneuver themselves: being at a loss in dealing with it, but I think that can be said for weak Se and not just Se PoLR.

I had an EII manager at a busy restaurant and he would quickly become ineffectual, irritated, and overwhelmed when things got busy and a lot was going on, taking his anger out on me and the other employees who were busting their asses to make things happen while he himself behaved as a whiny, sniveling, pathetic shit, , attempting to intimidate in effort to maintain the illusion of authority, and being far more difficult to manage than the masses we were taking care of. Not that Se PoLR always plays out in that way, but such situations that require being engaged with the ever changing moment just doesn't suit them one bit.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I just think this type of behavior comes from parents who don't teach children that it's okay to speak up for themselves, that it's important to be nice and passive all costs. It is kindness taking to the extreme- but that just realistically invites a person to be bullied like lungs said. To brush it off as 'oh that's just my type' doesn't seem psychologically healthy at all. =/

It's hard to correct in adults because you're essentially dealing with a child not an adult. The inner child is wounded. Anyways bully/victim is the same thing, a healthy assertive person doesn't attract this sort of stuff naturally but it's hard to see that sometimes I guess if you're living it you might not always hear the obvious wake up call.

[Skepsis]

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

lol and Darya that doesn't mean he lacks balls... you just want men to act that way cuz you have a stereotypical masochistic fantasy. There has been lots of times before in life when I was actually secure and people would scream at me 'ugh stop being so insecure.' But really I was just seeing right through them and was coldly pointing it out and they hated that. they wanted me to get in some sugarcoated sparring match that I wasn't interested in. It's a projection.

[wacey]

This video accurately sums up the both the manifestations of Se-polr in LII and the cure. If viewed everyday at least once a day, it may lead to getting up and doing something. It may help improve focus as well.

Just click it. You know you want to.

[The Reality Denialist]

LII with very strong and clear alpha values combined with Se PoLR views.



Christianity appears to have lots of Se valuing elements in it.

[niffer]

Christianity appears to have lots of Se valuing elements in it.

I think any faith that is prescriptive rather than descriptive is Se-valuing. However, I hope it makes sense to you that Si valuing would be more likely to actually follow and stick to a faith.

[bolong]

LII with very strong and clear alpha values combined with Se PoLR views.



Christianity appears to have lots of Se valuing elements in it.

How, and where?

I don't think it's a good idea to mix religion and socionics.

[bolong]

I know a sad tale of an LII female and SLE male couple. It's a dark story, not for everyone...

 

LII stood out as an intriguing and unique female in college, with IJ steadfastness and gravity. Unlike many females, she never complained that it was too hot, too cold, or about food. This made her seem hard-core during outings - concerts, festivals, drug trips. She also never asked people to pay her back, and she didn't seem to mind when her belongings/space were messed around with. The SLE, in fact, destroyed many of her possessions, some out of anger, and some out of carelessness. This in particular stayed with the LII - not the subtleties of how she was treated emotionally, but that her possessions were not respected by him. But he brought glamor into her life, and she loved him.

SLE kept the LII as a second choice throughout college, mostly because he could. There was no danger of "losing" the LII after a brief break up, and it was always him doing the breaking up, and initiating getting back together. After college, SLE realized he didn't really have any friends, the massive amount of acquaintances that made him seem so popular were byproducts of going to a trendy high school/college, and knowing how to work the crowd. He lost all of that when college ended, and faced with becoming a mature adult in solitude, he went crawling back to the LII, who had managed to distance herself for once.

In the meantime, our poor LII female treated many Fe-ego males who were interested in her with contempt. SLE's influence overshadowed most of her college experience, and as her supervisor he began to become her "conscience." What he thought was cool was the only cool thing, what he didn't think highly of became too pathetic to consider. So, even she couldn't help but be uplifted when he contacted her, eager to make up...

Their post-college relationship continued much like before. It was always dating on-and-off, with an odd intimacy that SLE could exploit when he wanted to, but that she didn't have much control over. SLE, trying to better himself, began to see a psychiatrist. He got the LII a solid position in a big company, where he himself worked. They decided to live separately, both realizing they got along better this way. LII began to spend a lot of time on reddit, where she could hold her own nicely among the hellscapes of the comments sections. She also began to become a horror aficionado, plumbing the depths of the genre with her typical steadfastness and patience. She was undeterred by films that were based entirely on torturing young females to death - she could debate the few merits they did have dispassionately.

Then came a particularly severe break-up. SLE changed jobs. LII stayed on at the job he had gotten her. In a way she hated the routine 9-5 it had become, but she also knew it was a good job, and part of her welcomed that she was not expected to do much other than show up. After this latest break-up she immersed herself into NBA forums online, analyzing every point and player. And one day, SLE's phone call rang into the grayness of her life. She answered...

[ghost of forum past]

I think any faith that is prescriptive rather than descriptive is Se-valuing.

So true. Religions of that sort are some of the things that just don't work with my mind. Not necessarily because of a lack of faith, but the fact that thought must conform to a set of narrow, sometimes questionable principles, especially in many conservative Christian traditions. I mean no offense to conservative Christians, of course; this has been my singular experience.

[ghost of forum past]

On some other observations regarding passivity in Se-PoLR types, I would like to add that passivity in LIIs (or at least for me and the sparse other LIIs I've met) seems to mean "I don't want to do this - encourage me using Fe, or piss off" (and rarely would it come to verbalizing something so rude to this effect). Recognizing Fe in our duals, we try to act according to their needs for structure and understanding, but without being directly ordered around, since that's the point at which LIIs become angry (again, not necessarily showing this).

[may]

:? (?)



LII tries to push out Se or wha? (?)

game 7 final game 7

it doesn't make sense to me --- Se

Just spitttballing today

[Exodus]

On some other observations regarding passivity in Se-PoLR types, I would like to add that passivity in LIIs (or at least for me and the sparse other LIIs I've met) seems to mean "I don't want to do this - encourage me using Fe, or piss off" (and rarely would it come to verbalizing something so rude to this effect). Recognizing Fe in our duals, we try to act according to their needs for structure and understanding, but without being directly ordered around, since that's the point at which LIIs become angry (again, not necessarily showing this).

Yeah I definitely agree with this. If I can't get excited about or interested in something, it's very difficult for me to do it. If there is something I need to do by sheer willpower, I'd rather that it come from within rather than someone else egging me on.

[The Exception]

Yeah I definitely agree with this. If I can't get excited about or interested in something, it's very difficult for me to do it. If there is something I need to do by sheer willpower, I'd rather that it come from within rather than someone else egging me on.

I totally agree.

[chemical]

To understand polr, it helps to see how there's a distinction between the duality relations and the ego-superego ones, since obviously both the intuitive IP types and the IJ types wind up with Se that suffers.

Duality winds up being about the perspective with which you see the part of the information metabolism cycle you are interested in and wish to manipulate with a very individual slant. The rest of the cycle goes on of its own right, with conservative influences of yours, but mostly just trying to see through the part you wished to influence in an individual way.

Theoretically, if you see to the potential of a system of interrelated objects, you know how impacting any one given object in a tangible way affects all the objects in concern.
In practice, you can misestimate. And this leads to feeling like you failed in truly capturing the potential. The reason you can't see to both perspectives simultaneously is it's hard to maintain consciousness of both simultaneously, which is no problem if you're just copying someone's perspective, since then you needn't shift consciousness -- but if you wish to make an individual contribution, you definitely need to differentiate out in one direction at least for time being.

This misestimation is just higher in say LII/EII than in ILE/IEE, because of the object-focus of the latter guys -- they tend to be simply more in tune with the raw nature of the objects in question.

So in a very psychologically meaningful concrete sense, with say ILE, they tend to have a better intuition for the things being described, thus less likely to get tied into empty structural considerations that wind up untrue to the objects being described. But the catch is say LII may on the other hand have an edge on things like not translating an intuition into a system in a haphazard way. ILE has somewhat stronger Te, but doesn't value it, and the LII can be useful in really ridding the unwanted Te perspective which may seep in due to the object-orientation (producing remnants of a more descriptive pov than a truly structural one).

I think in Jungian lingo what's going on here is the difference between letting the secondary acquire sufficient energy of its own right vs pretty much regurgitating the dominant pov..

[chemical]

I think it can also show up in how people like to be informed of the insufficiency of their base agenda. Show a TiSe type how their laws don't match the tangible nature of something they are interested in, and this works. Try to tell them the potential of the paradigm they are using to model reality, and they hate it and will consider these empty statements.

It works similarly in how XII like being informed of things like the failure of their structures/ethics to account for something -- when it'll hit them as relevant, and a true failure.

[Radio]

OK, so here's what I have surmised regarding how Se-polr manifests in LII and EII:

NOTE: lack of self-esteem and confidence are NOT part of Se-polr. Inability to speak for yourself, being socially anxious or shy are NOT Se-polr.

EII vs. LII

+Fi -Se vs. -Ti +Se

- Conflict-avoidant:

Both EII and LII are conflict-avoidant to some extent but EIIs tend to be less assertive and tend to give people "options". e.g. "here's what you can do to fix this situation. here's what you have done wrong." etc. Being both positivist + F-type, EIIs tend to have more of an openness to conflict-resolution. Often they will actively enlist the things they think are wrong in order to fix them. This does not mean being a push-over, but there's a certain lack of boundaries or rather that they have softer boundaries that are prone to a lot of adjustment and meeting you half-way.

EIIs tend to be more confident with emotionally charged situations but not so much where a decorum needs to be followed e.g. being a lawyer, police officer, etc. because their boundaries are softer than those situations call for. /2c

LIIs on the other hand, are negativists + T-types. They shut down far more easily emotionally (T-type) and will tend not to initiate again nor provide options like EIIs do (negativism). LIIs seem to be OK with conflict where they're aware of the "rules" of the game. It's not so much about conflict-resolution as about being right and they put their foot down a lot more firmly. It can also seem like LIIs are pushovers but they tend to have a lot more explicit boundaries and do well in professions where these can be enforced in a formal setting.


+Fi -Si vs -Ti +Si

- Health and Appearance

LIIs tend to be far more obsessive about their personal health and well-being than EIIs. I've known so so many LIIs who are completely jacked gym-bunnies or who have at least some preoccupation with physical fitness, nutrition and health. A lot of LII's Si preoccupation is about long-term goals with respect to their health and appearance (+Si). In some ways this also lends them some "tough" cred that they otherwise wouldn't because of their generally softer-spoken attitude.

In contrast with the LII's long-term preoccupation (+Si), EIIs tend to be focus more on the short-term (-Si), i.e. things that feel good immediately like going to beautiful places, candy, weed, fashion, wacky identifiers like keychains and other "cool" hipster things. EIIs tend to be a lot more hedonistic and into immediate gratification and in some ways, a lot less disciplined. Also unlike LIIs, they aren't as guarded and tend to think their vulnerabilities give them strength (aka Dostoevsky). There's less posturing and fewer outward boundaries, an aspect of base +Fi vs. role -Fi.

It would be easier to think of LII's role -Fi in comparison with ESI's base -Fi, rather than EII's base +Fi.

----might add later, i dunno.----

[yeves]

So Se people are:

• Reluctant to stick up for themselves
• Don't like too many rules
• Don't like to disrupt the flow
• Don't like to self-promote(?)
• Don't like to assert themselves - instead they try to be gentle and convince them "politely"

is what I've seen so far.

Also, passiveness has been brought up a few times. I always associated this with my high neuroticism because neuroticism is linked to disliking making decisions, but do other Se-POLRers have high neuroticism/dislike making decisions?

What about Se Polr "social justice warriors" and social activists? None of this list applies to them.

And what about this description? This was written by a Se type about Se Polr:

EII the need to dominate.

Maybe being a meek, quiet, docile individual is not the same as being Se Polr and having weak Se?

[Beautiful sky]

Come on people Se is all about the outward appearance of things. Texture, shared force etc. EII just don't care that much about whether colors match and will try new things even if they look weird. EII will also not be as observant or talkative about externals of people. My SEE niece who is only 11 will go on long walks with me and talk to me about how unfair she has observed certain people's overall actions with regards to the impact they make on society at large. We can both champion for the Sane causes but she has a lot more energy and will and drive than I do. I burn out quickly and I need a lot more alone time to recharge. .

[Jeremy8419]

Se is Space. It is a measure of how much space something occupies, be it a person, a collective of people, or a concept. By increasing things such as visibility, wealth, confidence shown, etc., one is increasing their space. Your influence and boundaries.

This is in direct opposition to the Leading of EII/LII. By dropping the Se to very low levels, one may increase their Fi/Ti affect. In general neither of these types will care for their Se, and will not care what Force is exerted upon them, because by giving into said Force, they are actually increasing their Relationships/Laws. Take for example being the only one not dancing at a club... You are decreasing your Se, and thereby increasing your Potentials for Fi/Ti. Vulnerable is not something that pains us that we do not have. It is a blind spot that we have due to our focus on our Leading. The only times we negatively feel it, are when it is taken to extremely low levels. Some Se is required, as are all elements, or we die. If EII/LII are not at the point where their life is jeopardized by too low Se, they will generally gladly throw it away for Leading.

[Beautiful sky]

Alright let's compare EII to ESI. According to the difference in Se valuing ESI judges certain qualities about a person based on how much of their feelings they can influence or how much of their feelings are influenced. EII can see that the feelings have been influenced but being the empath he thus doesn't want to aggravate the person further and doesn't judge him or her on any other distinctions except that he is his equal and equally deserving of love.

ESI will say if person A has a good disposition with person B, they like people and can easily get along with them and can easily bring them into their confidence, then that person is strong willed. Because my dear duals say out of place things making people angry at them and people thus stay away the ESI will come down hard on them. @Sol

And EII doesn't judge people by what feelings they show to others. EII calmly advises behind the scenes and expresses their emotions but won't say "because you don't get along with others you are weak".

For the record, LIE like people just like woof, like them and show affection thus they are ESI` dual.

Strong person is one who overcomes their adversaries and who can keep their emotions under control to an ESI. And EII doesn't judgement by strength and will. People are can express all those feelings that would make them seem weak to others to an EII what one will be judged for is character. Whether he's a good person, helps others, shows kindness.

[Beautiful sky]

I would like to give another example of how.strict exacting limiting and in my eyes how heart less Se of ESI can be

If an ESI fosters a child who is quite disturbed and makes poor choices and happens to set a curtain on fire or stick something in a plug they child will be instructed and disciplined after that never looked upon the same. The possibility of outreach and help to talk to the child and try to make things work by the means of a psychological intervention no longer exist . The child is labeled as a scoundrel weak. They speak to some evil force to be uprooted and discarded sent back. I lack the strength to make very precise and exacting disciplinary action that would get through to someone and have them behave with fear of God lol but I don't have the heart to be so quick with my judgement without trying by best at offering and finding possibility because I took in that child..it's mine and I have to try to find a solution.

My tool is to dismantle feelings and help a person to listen to their own conscience. So I would talk to the child and through any other multitudes of resources.

[ClownsandEntropy]

What about Se Polr "social justice warriors" and social activists? None of this list applies to them.

And what about this description? This was written by a Se type about Se Polr:

EII the need to dominate.

Maybe being a meek, quiet, docile individual is not the same as being Se Polr and having weak Se?

Interesting point! I think a lot of 'SJW'-types (we need a better, non-derogatory, name for them) can be ESIs when they're using force effectively.

Trying to imagine the EIIs I know. They seem willing to assert themselves about certain topics when they're with people they know agree with them, or at least won't argue with them. They're not the type to argue with people they just met unless they're feeling particularly fired up - they will just silently disapprove but not feel it appropriate to tell you off, and then they'll talk about it with other people they can trust.

If they do argue with people, perhaps it can be considered an overreaction? That is, perhaps it's using Se but over-the-top? It's more a social psychology situation where they've been influenced by someone in social justice to always be willing to fight for it, and this creates a willingness for conflict even if they don't enjoy it 'naturally' i.e. the situation wins out over their personality.

A lot of SJW stuff seems to be trying to change huge rules, rather than fighting individual people. Perhaps this is a Se-POLR related thing. Think Robespierre trying to create his perfect system which he thinks will make everything smooth. Se would be more OK with a bit of rough and tumble and perhaps try to pressure individual people into changing.

Still, my (limited) experience with EIIs is that they don't tell you they disagree unless you're close to them (something Fi-ish). Once your friendship has been established, they will be more willing to share their opinions on you.

(Also, to EIIs I'm sorry if any of this sounds unnecessarily negative on you. If you want to message me to correct me on stuff which you think is painting EIIs too negatively we can hash it out outside of this thread.)

Finally, re: the link that you posted.

It doesn't sound like they're using Se there to control everything. Rather they're trying to have control over things without needing to outright go into the world and get it. Instead they're using they're Fi to build this sense of connection and obligation between the two.

Also, there's a fine line between Se-POLR and Si-HA because one entails the other. But it sounds like it's for a Si-end. They want to be taken care of, and they secure that care via that connection.

It's different to how I see a Se method, which would appear more independent. The EII model sounds like it's more about building up a co-dependence on each other. For the ESI admitting such dependence might be a bit embarrasing.

[Beautiful sky]

Interesting point! I think a lot of 'SJW'-types (we need a better, non-derogatory, name for them) can be ESIs when they're using force effectively.

Trying to imagine the EIIs I know. They seem willing to assert themselves about certain topics when they're with people they know agree with them, or at least won't argue with them. They're not the type to argue with people they just met unless they're feeling particularly fired up - they will just silently disapprove but not feel it appropriate to tell you off, and then they'll talk about it with other people they can trust.

If they do argue with people, perhaps it can be considered an overreaction? That is, perhaps it's using Se but over-the-top? It's more a social psychology situation where they've been influenced by someone in social justice to always be willing to fight for it, and this creates a willingness for conflict even if they don't enjoy it 'naturally' i.e. the situation wins out over their personality.

A lot of SJW stuff seems to be trying to change huge rules, rather than fighting individual people. Perhaps this is a Se-POLR related thing. Think Robespierre trying to create his perfect system which he thinks will make everything smooth. Se would be more OK with a bit of rough and tumble and perhaps try to pressure individual people into changing.

Still, my (limited) experience with EIIs is that they don't tell you they disagree unless you're close to them (something Fi-ish). Once your friendship has been established, they will be more willing to share their opinions on you.

(Also, to EIIs I'm sorry if any of this sounds unnecessarily negative on you. If you want to message me to correct me on stuff which you think is painting EIIs too negatively we can hash it out outside of this thread.)

Finally, re: the link that you posted.

It doesn't sound like they're using Se there to control everything. Rather they're trying to have control over things without needing to outright go into the world and get it. Instead they're using they're Fi to build this sense of connection and obligation between the two.

Also, there's a fine line between Se-POLR and Si-HA because one entails the other. But it sounds like it's for a Si-end. They want to be taken care of, and they secure that care via that connection.

It's different to how I see a Se method, which would appear more independent. The EII model sounds like it's more about building up a co-dependence on each other. For the ESI admitting such dependence might be a bit embarrasing.

I agree with the codependent part because it's a model of friendship. "You scratch my back, I scratche your" as is said by LSE

[blank]

I think Radio articulated it well for the most part. From what I've noticed LIIs do tend to adhere to some criteria of rules (i.e. logical argumentation) that they expect others to follow when it comes to conflict, while EIIs tend to have ethical standards they abide by. For EIIs this can be less explicit than for LIIs. This is all good and well in a debate or something of the sort where what's at stake is intellectual enlightenment or, more likely, one-upsmanship -- however they tend to lose sight when it comes to good ol' power struggles of the possibility that a good kick to the face or public shaming (and the like) can win a conflict rather easily regardless of their rules. For an opponent who resorts to such behavior a LII's rules or an EII's standards can be seen as irrelevant. Their response to this seems to range from shutting down completely to rigidly maintaining their position even in the glaring face of defeat. If of the bitter variety inappropriate explosions of anger and frustration can be common in both. Impotent passive aggression as well.

[Muddy]

I thinking more about the Se polr of LIIs and I now think it is more about having a lack of awareness for the personal space for oneself and others then it is about passivity. I noticed LIIs can be quite nosy around others and often don't seem pick up ques to go away when they are being annoying. I think this is how they conflict with SEE, by not showing awareness for SEE's personal space which provokes the SEE to force the LII to go away.

[ClownsandEntropy]

I thinking more about the Se polr of LIIs and I now think it is more about having a lack of awareness for the personal space for oneself and others then it is about passivity. I noticed LIIs can be quite nosy around others and often don't seem pick up ques to go away when they are being annoying. I think this is how they conflict with SEE, by not showing awareness for SEE's personal space which provokes the SEE to force the LII to go away.

When you say personal space, could that be a Fi thing? Or do you mean in the physical sense of being close to them?

[Exodus]

I thinking more about the Se polr of LIIs and I now think it is more about having a lack of awareness for the personal space for oneself and others then it is about passivity. I noticed LIIs can be quite nosy around others and often don't seem pick up ques to go away when they are being annoying. I think this is how they conflict with SEE, by not showing awareness for SEE's personal space which provokes the SEE to force the LII to go away.

This is not how it works. The SEE is the one invading others' personal space, not the LII. Wanting to maintain the harmony of one's personal space is . And it's about passivity, too.

[chrys]

Hmm... what's the difference between Social Anxiety Disorder/Avoidant Personality Disorder and Se PoLR?


- I hate being noticed at all costs unless I can hold the attention
- I feel bad for winning or not letting others get attention, so I immediately back off or start sucking at whatever I'm doing. I don't want to look the best in anything.
- I can't ask for anything from certain people... most people.
- I feel bad for invading people's space and time, and I am sensitive towards others doing the same to me.
- ... I'll add to this list if necessary.

(intentions for asking this: Can I still be SEI or should I reconsider EII? EII is definitely competing with SEI right now and not just because of the doubt mentioned here. )