Se PoLR of INFjs and INTjs

[Gilly]

I honestly don't see any evidence of any type of PoLR in you.

Well, I don't like to dance in public. It can make me feel self-conscious.

Peter says the same.

*yawn*

Where do you see evidence of ANYONE's PoLR on here? Are you that retarded? People only convey what they want to be seen over the internet, so obviously their PoLRs are not going to be obvious unless direct confrontation surrounding them is provoked and sustained.

[Joy]

I disagree. If people's PoLR can't be observed through this form of communication, how can any of the functions? Certain PoLRs stick out more than others do (to me). It's true that you can't see everyone's PoLR and when you can, it's generally not totally obvious, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

[Blaze]

I disagree. If people's PoLR can't be observed through this form of communication, how can any of the functions? Certain PoLRs stick out more than others do (to me). It's true that you can't see everyone's PoLR and when you can, it's generally not totally obvious, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

Give me an example of where you see a PoLR being displayed, or a pattern that you've observed in someone on the forum that is indicative of his/her PoLR.

we used to see it all the time with mcnew getting defensive.

[Joy]

I disagree. If people's PoLR can't be observed through this form of communication, how can any of the functions? Certain PoLRs stick out more than others do (to me). It's true that you can't see everyone's PoLR and when you can, it's generally not totally obvious, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

Give me an example of where you see a PoLR being displayed, or a pattern that you've observed in someone on the forum that is indicative of his/her PoLR.

perhaps in PM or Yahoo IM

[FDG]

I disagree. If people's PoLR can't be observed through this form of communication, how can any of the functions? Certain PoLRs stick out more than others do (to me). It's true that you can't see everyone's PoLR and when you can, it's generally not totally obvious, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

Most ISFjs I know love dancing in public.

[Joy]

I don't think it's entirely type related... there are many other factors that would influence this.

Diana doesn't have a Se PoLR. And no, I'm not going to argue about this here (or anywhere atm).

[FDG]

I don't think it's entirely type related... there are many other factors that would influence this.

Diana doesn't have a Se PoLR. And no, I'm not going to argue about this here (or anywhere atm).

No no, not "entirely" is no good. Even the damn DESCRIPTION of ISFjs say that they like to dance in public!!!

[Joy]

FDG, which description was it?

[fever]

just because u dance or don't dance in public doesn't make u this or that... socionics isn't black or white!

i could be mistaken for an ESFp in da club... i love to dance! it's fun!! and that's the only reason i go!!

[Joy]

fever, are you certain that you're not INFp? or ISFp?

[discojoe]

just because u dance or don't dance in public doesn't make u this or that... socionics isn't black or white!

i could be mistaken for an ESFp in da club... i love to dance! it's fun!! and that's the only reason i go!!

Uh oh, you made a stupid post.

[FDG]

fever, are you certain that you're not INFp? or ISFp?

Lol first you say that dancing in public isn't related to type, then you try to type a person by that...logical consistency anyone?

Anyway, the description:

http://forum.socionix.com/index.php?showtopic=135

Uh oh, you made a stupid post.

If hers is stupid, I wonder what you'd think about all those logical inconsistencies. But well, up to you.

[fever]

just because u dance or don't dance in public doesn't make u this or that... socionics isn't black or white!

i could be mistaken for an ESFp in da club... i love to dance! it's fun!! and that's the only reason i go!!

Uh oh, you made a stupid post.

no, u r misunderstanding... if types were based on whether or not u dance in public, then i could be mistaken for ESFp. but i'm saying... they're not! get it??

[fever]

@Joy... i know the dancing in public thing seems a little contradictory, but i'm pretty sure i'm INFj. as far as Se POLR... the way that it manifests in me is that i guess that i just don't value it that much.

for example... if i were approached by say... a modelling agent (don't get me wrong, i'm not saying i would be. <-- i hate when ppl act like that...LOL, it's is so disgusting! as i was saying this is just an example.) i'd just rather not be known as a model... i don't think it really says much for a person. now someone who finds the ultimate cure for aids... to me, that is much different. if i were going to be known for something, i'd much rather be known for something i did for the good of mankind.

[Expat]

I really don't think that dancing in public is an indication of Se PoLR or not. My two INFj mates have a clear Se PoLR in terms of dislike for direct confrontation, but they both enjoy - or at the very least have no problem with - dancing.

[Joy]

yeah.... my post had nothing to do with what you said about dancing fever

[Joy]

Here's a suggestion: "I started this thread with the express purpose of discussing myself/other ENFjs, please do not post off-topic," would probably go over a whole lot better than suggesting that anyone needs your permission to post anything.

There's nothing wrong with posting off-topic, and it doesn't mean anyone is trying to take any kind of power from the wolves of beta-land You can always request that a thread be split if it starts turning off of the topic you started. Really, when you're in a real-life conversation that happens all the time. The link she posted was in response to the one FDG posted and was meant to make a point.

So, getting back to the topic of ENFjs. It seems contradictory to me to say that you're interested in keeping a mood, everyone happy and cheerful, but then make cutting remarks to anyone "unworthy" which in this thread includes INxjs, anyone non-beta, Joy, and I'm sure there's other examples. So then what's the whole point of acting like you're happy and cheerful and all, when it's really just something you use against people, not for them, and applies only to those that you like? This sounds an awful lot like manipulation to me, and is the opposite of sincerity.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Kristiina, I am sensitive to the desire to keep things on topic and take other conversations to different threads. I often request this of others, and I feel it's perfectly reasonable. The fact that the conversation which was taking place when I started posting in this thread had nothing to do with the title of the thread aside, all you needed to do was simply state that you'd like to get back on topic. I most likely would have apologized and either wandered off (which is most likely) or posted something on topic.

Instead you started squawking and jumping around waving your arms and hurling insults. It's funny, but the dramatics are not going to accomplish anything (other than allowing you to vent or perhaps getting another Beta to show up and say, "Yeah! Kristiina's awesome and you need to fuck off Joy!").

To be clear, this isn't a battle or race or contest or fight or anything else that one could either win or lose.

*sighs*

[UDP]

4. Place of Least Resistance (Shyness): Extroverted Sensing (Se)

“A shy spot for hedonism”

Extroverted Sensing as the PoLR is the other half of the superego conscience that is afraid to come out or be provoked. As the producing function for the role function Fi, rest assured that when the special time comes, those inner feelings will be expressed through the senses. For example, a kiss or touch for a loved one will usually be a direct translation of their inner feelings to an outward physical expression that they feel liberated but exhausted for showing.

When you are oriented in the Se way, you live completely in the moment. You respond now to what is happening now. What happens later, you'll deal with later. What's happened in the past is irrelevant.

Like a habit, the analyst’s life is dominated by understanding theory and gathering evidence. He doesn’t know well how to balance work and play and can easily lead himself to starvation.

Life for the analyst is ascetic where he has refrained from sensual pleasures usually by fear and out of their hidden agenda to be healthy. This may explain the analyst’s closely guarded fear of intimacy which is why they are more love driven looking for that very special lady who may take a lifetime to find unless they’ll willing to throw caution to the wind and accept the challenge of the dating game. The benefits of course could be that some day they may have such a high understanding of the dating process that they end up writing a best selling book on the subject or create a better system of dating based on their (limited) Se experiences.

I was wondering what other LIIs, and alphas, had to say about this.

I for one agree with the title "a shy spot for hedonism", though I originally wrote it as "soft spot".
I realize also for myself that I must be ascetic, or I actually cannot think about pleasure too much, otherwise it messes up the rest of my structure. Having a partner who would actively monitor and care for that would be most beneficial, because it's one thing that I really don't like to deal with. I do not deal with it well. But I am realizing in the mean time, less is best.

[science as magic]

i sort of enjoy overcoming this? this is why i like esfps? there is something appealing about the wild insanity that is -

[Mariano Rajoy]

I have to agree with what you have posted UDP. I would also add that if a loved one restricts physical contact after it has been established, it can be very hurtful.

I read somewhere that in the INTj, Se takes direction from the unconcious Fe, which would make sense if other INTj's take particular offense to denial of physical contact.

[UDP]

i sort of enjoy overcoming this? this is why i like esfps? there is something appealing about the wild insanity that is -

Maybe you're exploring your limits.
I've done that in the past.

Or maybe you're really an ILI, or other type. I don't know.
Honestly, "wild insanity" is not appealing to me. However, I could understand a certain 'intellectual'-esque appeal to it all. Maybe you are an LII and you're there. It's not for me to say.

[UDP]

I have to agree with what you have posted UDP. I would also add that if a loved one restricts physical contact after it has been established, it can be very hurtful.

I read somewhere that in the INTj, Se takes direction from the unconcious Fe, which would make sense if other INTj's take particular offense to denial of physical contact.

I was going to say....

The benefits of course could be that some day they may have such a high understanding of the dating process that they end up writing a best selling book on the subject or create a better system of dating based on their (limited) Se experiences.

There is no "dating process", at least in the real LII terms. EVerything is either towards or against the relationship. (maybe that is why is enjoyed.... ((maybe that's a good insight, because I was trying to think about what purpose serves and why I enjoy it)) ).

I don't really see a "dating process" in other people, either, but I won't get into that here.

[1981slater]

Please describe in your own words...

1) your point of least resistance

2) your hidden agenda

[717495]

Please describe in your own words...

1) your point of least resistance

2) your hidden agenda

POLR for me is like not wanting to make an impact because of the responsibility I'd have to hold to maintain such. I get nervous when I know people are watching me, and I even get nervous if I know I'm doing something that could, possibly, attract attention to myself. This is very noticeable in real life, I'm not sure about on the internet. I'm not really afraid of thinking about ideas and previous experiences, unless I was extremely uncomfortable to the point of expressing negative feelings, which us Alphas can do more strongly then Betas and Gammas. I also get very uncomfortable with new surroundings and people. Often I can have a decent, although nervous, attitude coming into these situations, but I've been utterly confused by the time they were finished as to why I am in such a sad mood. I often have a negative attitude about things being not correctly scheduled, because in my mind a person is asking me to do something instantaneously and I'm afraid of that, that I haven't planned for it, and I haven't thought through it and taken care of seemingly more important things. I don't like being rushed. I don't like bold moves. I usually need warming up. I can often make bold moves quite independently, but if someone else is involved, I ask that they are calm and explain themselves.

as hidden agenda, although I don't like that term, is like a requirement. I need a comfortable and peaceful environment without disruption in order for me to perform well. Even if something occurs in which I am fond of, it will usually take me off track from my original goals, and that I can not help to not like. I don't like loud noises what-so-ever! I don't care what it is. The only loud music I like is to my situational taste, and any other music can burn, no pun intended. In order for me to enter my focus mood, some things around me need to be taken care of. Most of the time they are very simple, like adjusting my posture, my pillow, opening or closing doors, etc. I don't really know what else is to it. I probably haven't thought much about what makes me the most comfortable, but I'll know what doesn't make me comfortable when it happens. Se POLR can sometimes get in the way of me trying to change my surrounds to keep the peace, such as getting out of the house for health reasons.

[Lobo]

Please describe in your own words...

1) your point of least resistance

2) your hidden agenda

The problem with this is that and are defined functions, as well as point of least resistance and hidden agenda. If Socionics is a theoretical model where people can be located somewhere in a fixed personality type spectrum, then I don't see it as helpful for people to explain what their Se and Si functions are, considering that it's already defined, and instead might define the functions as to what their emotional/logical response might be to having a "point of least resistance" and/or "hidden agenda."

Maybe you were implying to describe situations with the two, which is tough for me to come up with one that is strictly related to these functions. In short, I would say that polr is manifested in moments where pressure is necessary to obtain what I want and I don't apply it, and also when I disconnect from the environment (being aloof). With HA I would say that it is manifested in trying to perfect an art or ability, might be also related to being in an environment where "things come easy" and "flow."

[The Greeter]

In situations that I have not thought over nor relayed in my mind of how to act exactly, I get very nervous. Sometimes, I don't get the result I want, others I end up not acting at all.
From this, I can actually see why confrontation is such a problem with Se-PoLR since you never really know how the person will respond. I'm somewhat okay with confrontation because I do think about the many ways the situation can develop and what I would do accordingly.


Very similar to what Sereno said with wanting to perfect many skills. But also being receptive to people who can help you with creating a favourable environment (this does not have to be the stereotypical calm and peacful environment, but just one that is suitable). The two are connected.

These are not the end all be all ways that -PoLR and -HG manifests in me but this is all that comes to mind for now.

[Rubicon]

Here, have some buffalo.
Oh, I'm fine thanks.
There's plenty. You can if you want to.
Yeah, thanks.
Well would you like some?
I don't think so.
Yes or no?
Um no thanks.
Why not?
Oh I don't know. Does it matter?
Here, have some!
You want me to eat some for you?
Well if you don't want any, don't have any.
Ok..

[Warlord]

Here, have some buffalo.
Oh, I'm fine thanks.
There's plenty. You can if you want to.
Yeah, thanks.
Well would you like some?
I don't think so.
Yes or no?
Um no thanks.
Why not?
Oh I don't know. Does it matter?
Here, have some!
You want me to eat some for you?
Well if you don't want any, don't have any.
Ok..

So did the green person eat more buffalo in the end? Purple person sounds like my mother But I don't think they are the same type though. When my mom keeps offering more food, I'm pretty much constantly:"No, I just ate, maybe I'll have some later", "I don't want that either, I just ate".

[Serious Name]

Haha that sounds exactly like something my dad would do. Even if he knows I don't like the food, he keeps pushing until I try a piece.

[Rubicon]

So did the green person eat more buffalo in the end?

No.

[Rubicon]

Haha that sounds exactly like something my dad would do. Even if he knows I don't like the food, he keeps pushing until I try a piece.

How do you react to that?

[Serious Name]

How do you react to that?

If he really keeps pushing I try a bite and tell him "Nope, still dont like ____." I'd prefer he didn't do it but it isn't a big deal, usually after I refuse twice he will stop and say something like "you don't know what you're missing!"

[Rubicon]

If he really keeps pushing I try a bite and tell him "Nope, still dont like ____."

lol that's a good tactic (c:

[717495]

I'd never give in, but I'd stay polite.

[VixenDogFox]

Do LII's have a hard time discussing sex things, like not during but later? Is that part of Se POLR?

[Azeroffs]

I think of Se-PoLR as having problems with assertion of certainty when there isn't enough time to think things through, making things out to be more complex than it is, and a strong tendency to over think things. That may be somewhat related to awkwardness when talking about sensitive topics like sex, but I wouldn't say it's heavily related.

[electric sheep]

Things we're really sensitive about are usually associated with the hidden agenda. The polr is something we don't care about, so if we make a blunder in that area, it doesn't sting nearly as much as a blunder in the hidden agenda area.

[xerx]

Unfortunately not, especially when I have to hear about it the next day. j/k

There is a social value attached to sexual prowess, which lets face it, Alpha NTs don't really have. So LIIs might avoid talking about it for that reason. On the other hand, I would probably lie about my sexual abilities and how well I do in bed, and if anyone ever doubts me, I just question their sexual orientation.

[717495]

Things we're really sensitive about are usually associated with the hidden agenda. The polr is something we don't care about, so if we make a blunder in that area, it doesn't sting nearly as much as a blunder in the hidden agenda area.

It's more like the PoLR/vulnerable function has a negative effect on our HA, which is why we try to build up and support the HA, and have that ego-connected outreach toward it. PoLR is seen as something conscious in model A, so we don't not care about it, but we actually have a severe disdain for it and try to avoid it, simply because it acts as a sort of poison that makes us weak and hits our HA. PoLR hits should basically be defined as "the PoLR hitting our HA:" the opposing function intruding on and contaminating our fragile HA. The rule stands even for something as extreme as Si-PoLR's deconstructive effect on Se HA. The function you are thinking of may be the ignoring function, something that we can also handle and have confidence in opposition to our dominant.

[electric sheep]

show up one day in knee high boots and a corset?