Se PoLR of INFjs and INTjs

[mimisor]

I would much like to know how it manifests the PoLR in an INTj (or INFjs), beyond the descriptions, in a concrete manner. What it is all about. I believe it's about feeling uneasy and uncomfortable with your phisical existence that derives from a great awarness of your phisical existence All this stuff translates ultimately in clumsiness derived from the same uber awareness.

It's the same with INFjs, btw.

Anyway I'm posting also the descriptions of a PoLR in general not specific to INTjs.

4. Vulnerable function - also known as the PoLR , a fragile function by which insecurities are realized, and usually suppressed by the 2nd function. If pressure is placed on this function from an outside source, a person may react with irritation or hostility. It often manifest itself in a state of severe immaturity. This function could be likened to a naked hungry and screaming baby, unable to take care of itself. Since the 3rd function neglects to inform and support, it often relies on the 6th function for protection and survival.

Place of Least Resistance
weak
producing

The place of least resistance is your weakest function. It makes you uncomfortable, and can be tied to certain personality problems you have. You won't make an issue about this function, in fact you try to avoid it. Criticism in this point is felt the worst.

And Se, what is:

Socionics function: black sensing - force - volitional sensorics
outward traits of object - shape, old vs. young, worth or cost, appearance, energy of object, strength, readiness, willpower, mobilization
Positive(short range):
Deduction of authority, insubordination, protection, defense, retaliation, counterattack, hardness, upholding of the interests, strong-willed pressure from below upwards, will power, possession;
Negative (long range):
Capture of authority, submission, attack, aggression, attack, the initiative, persistence, insistence, strong-willed pressure from top to down, the statement of the interests due to others, overthrow, weakness, lack of will, mastering.

So how do you feel the PoLR as an INTj? How does it influence you in everyday life?
I also think it's a good method to say if you are really an INTj, by the PoLR.

[Kirana]

i... don't know. how is having Se as PoLR supposed to manifest itself?

Socionics function: black sensing - force - volitional sensorics
outward traits of object - shape, old vs. young, worth or cost, appearance, energy of object, strength, readiness, willpower, mobilization
Positive(short range):
Deduction of authority, insubordination, protection, defense, retaliation, counterattack, hardness, upholding of the interests, strong-willed pressure from below upwards, will power, possession;
Negative (long range):
Capture of authority, submission, attack, aggression, attack, the initiative, persistence, insistence, strong-willed pressure from top to down, the statement of the interests due to others, overthrow, weakness, lack of will, mastering.


as far as i can tell, my Se is not so very weak. i'm able to experience the moment, and i have a pretty good aesthetic sense. but i've read that that's not the point.

let's see. "Deduction of authority, insubordination, protection, defense, retaliation, counterattack". the things that come to mind is that i am almost irrationally paranoid about being controlled, about being made to conform. i dislike intensely when people tell me i'm not fair enough, too thin, too short. i don't care, and i ignore it, but it angers me and it makes me despise them. i'm not good at most sports, and i hate being made to play them, and i hate failing publicly to play halfway decently, no matter how nice the others are being to me. i hate it more or equally to being made to participate in social activities i dislike, like karaoke. but the difference is, i feel guilty and i'm disturbed for longer after the initial reaction, and i don't know why. it's almost like i don't feel it's ok to not be good at volleyball, or that i refuse to 'fix' my thinness, but i feel no guilt whatsoever when i refuse social engagements, even if i know there will be consequences and i may hurt some people.

so, is that it? Se as PoLR?

[mimisor]

Yes, Kirana, that's the kind of things I wanted to hear more. And an obsession of mine: Do you ever dance in public? I refuse to do so because I guess it draws too much attention to my body and I fear that I might look ridiculous and I dislike to look inferior in other people eyes and I also feel very uncomfortable

I love sports, tough I'm not that active. I think beyond the functions, in our case to have a weak Se, which I believe is essential in sports field - to have a developed Se, is also important if your parents got you to do some sports when you were little. This way is it possible to improve the sport skills.

[mimisor]

I'm posting here Kirana's answer in the other thread with the functional analysis. I truly believe that's what a Se PoLR is

ah, awareness of my physical existence? well, why didn't you say so in the new thread?

this is addendum to my reply on the other thread.

now that does strike a nerve. d'you know, i was barely aware that i had a physical body until i was about 17, at which time i realised that since it was organic and physical, it requires proper care and maintenance. of course, i knew i inhabited a physical body, it's just that i didn't much pay attention to it, like it's not very important, and sometimes inconvenient. i often feel like my body slows me down. when i am depressed, i often want to retreat into my mind, and having to keep my body going becomes a detestable chore.

i think that's partly why i joined the navy reserves in university. i hated the fact that i didn't know what to do with my body. i think subconsciously i wanted to be forced to acknowledge my physical existence and to rely on it and see if i could do it.

sometimes, when i'm absorbed in something, or depressed, i am hardly aware of my physical surroundings, and my timekeeping deteriorates. it becomes inconvenient to be bound in the physical world, and subject to the flow of time. i always view my mind as separate from my body. though... i do want to try and maintain my physical body better than i have been doing. it's going to carry me around for a while, and i'd like it to be reliable and fit for purpose.

so, what do you think? INTj? INTp?

I think INFjs relate to this also, as they have the same PoLR.

[Kirana]

dancing? yes, and no. the first time i danced at all was when i was a cadet in the navy reserves, and that's coz we were forced to do it. and the only time i've ever danced in public were then, with my platoon-mates. and that's only because we've been through much more embarrassing and humiliating things together than dancing, so in comparison, dancing with them isn't all that bad anymore. with other people, i still don't do it. it's the same with singing. i don't think i'm bad at it - actually, with singing, i'm good. but i don't like to do it in public.

actually, by making myself undergo paramilitary training, i gained a lot of experience to make my PoLR grow up a bit. at least, react with some grace when it's being pressured. now that i understand what it is that i did, i'm so proud of myself.

[Creepy-]

I abosolutely dreaded dancing, and still am taken aback by it. Especially if it's arond people I know (especially family), and when it's people I don't know, it's still odd, and I'll only THINK of doing it if I'm in a great mood, which is rare.


but, whenI'm in the privacy of my own place, I do dance sometimes, just because it's something I can appreciate, sometimes

[science as magic]

I refuse to do so because I guess it draws too much attention to my body and I fear that I might look ridiculous and I dislike to look inferior in other people eyes and I also feel very uncomfortable

Doesn't describing your PoLR do the same thing? I find doing that repugnant.

[Kirana]

not for me, necessarily. maybe it would be harder to discuss it in person, verbally. but i could still do it - i tend to detach myself from my discussion, like i'm watching me discussing an issue in the third person. i'm the subject and i'm the observer, and yet the two are distinct in my mind. in this way i can dissect my own weaknesses. i think it's easier online, as i'm anonymous, really, and have no real contact with any forum members. it's harder to do the dissociation in person and discuss my weaknesses, except with trusted friends - i never know if the person i'm talking to may use my weaknesses against me. unless, i have a backup defense mechanism in place - which renders the weakness unexploitable.

come to think of it, i don't bring up Se to my friends either. the weaknesses i usually talk to them about tend to relate to Fe. here, i'm talking about it because someone asked. and i wanted to determine once and for all what my type is.

[mimisor]

Doesn't describing your PoLR do the same thing? I find doing that repugnant.

Yeah...., I thought the same way at first..., (who likes to talk about weaknesses in the end?, definetely it's not amusing, you know )I don't do it for fun, but then why not discuss it openly and also for people to have a clearer image what is all about, to understand better the functions, then I guess I wanted to identify with someone similar to me.

Kirana yes, I too, avoid letting people know that Se is my weakness and I react sharply if they step on it or make any allusion to it or if I am with people that I don't know well I am keeping the bad feeling for me, but then it hurts even greater.( if I don't exteriorize it) About Fe (emotional ethics, expressed on the outside world) I don't mind others expressing it for me or on my behalf so to speak, but I think I could find it irritable if they suggested that I should show a bit more of it, you know.

hmm..paramilitary training you say that sounds really cool, especially for a female to have such occupation =)

[Kirana]

i don't know if it's cool. non-ROTU (ROTC in the US?) classmates did make a positive fuss about it, which surprised me a bit. it's one of those rare things i do on the spur of the moment. i surprised everyone by lasting the whole training. it's voluntary, though, in my country, and after i started working i have no time left to remain active. so it's not like an occupation for me right now.

still, being INTj did come in handy at the base after i got commissioned - manpower shortage for classroom teaching, you see. i was the only reserve officer who could teach several subjects at cadet and midshipman levels. most people forget what they learned almost as soon as the exams were over! sometimes i taught two different subjects to two different platoons simultaneously. i like teaching officers under training. you can command them to listen. saves so much time and effort. can't imagine that would work in a regular civilian class. but seriously, the juniors respect you if you know your stuff, more than i expected they would.

[MySaviour]

Yes, Kirana, that's the kind of things I wanted to hear more. And an obsession of mine: Do you ever dance in public? I refuse to do so because I guess it draws too much attention to my body and I fear that I might look ridiculous and I dislike to look inferior in other people eyes and I also feel very uncomfortable

I love sports, tough I'm not that active. I think beyond the functions, in our case to have a weak Se, which I believe is essential in sports field - to have a developed Se, is also important if your parents got you to do some sports when you were little. This way is it possible to improve the sport skills.

I think you may have hit on something. Ah ha! I just came to a sort of realization. Awhile back my dad and I were discussing Einstein, and he was telling me that although obviously a genius, Einstein would regularly get lost walking home from campus. And I commented that he was out-of-balance. My dad said that if you can recognize an imbalance in kids when they are young that you can help them to become more balanced, and develop their weak areas. And I think this may be the very reason why I am good at some things that make it seem like I'm not a particular type, because my parents recognized both my strengths and weaknesses and helped me to develop more of a balance from the time I was young. So yay for my parents, and it explains why I don't feel like I entirely fit a particular type.

As far as dancing in public, that is something that I am very self-conscious about, and will not easily do.

Sometimes developing weaknesses retards one's strengths to a state of average. So with balance comes an unbelievably average person.

Eh..

Like an autistic person with an amazing ability for re-playing any number on the piano after only one hearing loses the ability after they learn to, say, walk on their hands.

Of course balance sounds like a good idea, but it may not always be worth the "price."

[diamond]

I don't know if I entirely agree with that Joel. I think that I could do very well at anything I chose to do (except be a salesperson of any kind). I think what it does is gives a person flexibility and resilence. I don't think developing weaknesses takes away from your strengths at all.

For instance, when a person is lifting weights and they come to a peak weight with a certain muscle group, if they work on the opposing group and strengthen it, the target group is then able to also increase in strength past the point it could if it was the only group you focused on. If you apply this kind of concept to functions, then strengthening a weak function could help support the stronger one and allow it to develop even more.

I like this idea, being into weight training. And it sounds more positive than if you work on your weaknesses you become average. That sounded depressing, no offense, MySaviour. :wink:

[Kirana]

that depends. i view it in this way.

simple example. say my intuition level is high - say 8. i exercise it far more than i need to keep it at that level. for example i need only 50% effort to keep it that high, but i'm using it at something like 75%, and it won't improve significantly any further even if i use it more, as it's reached a plateau. but my sensing is low - say 2. and i'm spending the minimum to keep it from not reducing - 25%.

now, scenario a. i try to improve my sensing. now, if i go overboard on this, spending 75% on sensing, then maybe it will improve to a 5. but now i'm spending less than minimum for my favoured intuition. it may then reduce to a 6. so in this case, balancing my functions will reduce my strong function in order to improve my weak one. i do NOT like that. i hate mediocrity.

but i believe there is a scenario b. i try to improve my sensing. but i spend only 40% on it. this may be enough to improve my sensing, but more slowly - say to level 3. i'm still spending 60% on my intuition, so really i'm only spending surplus effort for balancing myself. this way theoretically i get to improve my weak function, while keeping my strong function.

and a synergistic effect may appear - it could be that when my sensing reaches a 4 or 5 (whatever), with my intuition at 8, suddenly i may be able to improve my intuition to a 9 with the 60 or 70% effort.

i prefer scenario b. but it needs you to carefully watch yourself to tell if you're neglecting your strengths so much so that they become positively yucky (read: mediocre). in this, being INTj helps, as we're self-absorbed.

of course, the real juggling is more complex - as we have more than two things to consider balancing. but, you know, for illustration purposes and all....

[science as magic]

Yeah...., I thought the same way at first..., (who likes to talk about weaknesses in the end?, definetely it's not amusing, you know )I don't do it for fun, but then why not discuss it openly and also for people to have a clearer image what is all about, to understand better the functions....

I have done it, I just find it detestable. Ask some of the oldbies about how sappy I was on my first couple of weeks on the forum... there is a reason why I deleted those posts! Also I am jaded about people's ability to understand the weaknesses of others. They seem to comprehend it abstractly a bit but they never experience it for themselves really so it is hard to really understand it. That is why I find playing mental mind games with myself so fun, entertaining, and fascinating. When you force yourself into depression, mania, or compulsive behavior then you begin to understand others wonderfully I think. It is cool to feel really really stupid and like you do not understand anything for example because many feel that on a semi-regular basis and it would be good to give them tips on how to get them to think their way out of it if that is what they wished to do. I agree that it needs to be done but it IS still repulsive.

[Kirana]

depends on what was occupying my mind before i got in the car. but in any case, they would usually be unrelated to either car or highway. i would be thinking and feeling them if i were doing any other routine manual work, like bathing or cooking.

[mimisor]

Awhile back my dad and I were discussing Einstein, and he was telling me that although obviously a genius, Einstein would regularly get lost walking home from campus. And I commented that he was out-of-balance.

In this case, Einstein must have been an INTp. I remembered about this school mate of mine. If this can possibly be imagined, he would take the wrong tram and then after a while realize it. I'm seriously. Rather geeky. Otherwise he has a very clear and critical (evidently) judgement and he was always on time, one of the first fellows to get daily by classes (of course,when he didn't get the wrong tram!!! )

[Kirana]

back to original topic (sorry, but i was doing that thinking in the background thing again, and only just noticed something new).

i just realised (while taking a shower - so NFp, that is the sort of thing i'd be likely to think about when i driving as well ) that the types that annoy me the most all have Se as a dominant function. ESFps, ISTjs, ISFjs. i don't think i know any ISTps though.

i mean, i have other weak functions, but i never get bothered about types that are strong in those - sometimes even esteem them. but i seem to react badly to these three types. is this because they are grating on my PoLR?

[UDP]

Awhile back my dad and I were discussing Einstein, and he was telling me that although obviously a genius, Einstein would regularly get lost walking home from campus. And I commented that he was out-of-balance. My dad said that if you can recognize an imbalance in kids when they are young that you can help them to become more balanced, and develop their weak areas. And I think this may be the very reason why I am good at some things that make it seem like I'm not a particular type, because my parents recognized both my strengths and weaknesses and helped me to develop more of a balance from the time I was young. So yay for my parents, and it explains why I don't feel like I entirely fit a particular type.

Going through this thread in search ofmy PolR.

#1 I'm usually really bad with directions. Like...... roads and stuff, in a car and what not. It took me a while to get used to the college campus, but having a map and repitition helped.

#2 I'm the same way, Diana. I had 3 realyl loving parents who all influenced me in different ways, and that balanced out some things. Well, if nothing else, it really opened my eyes to different lifestyels, and ways of living. I think this attributes to some of my idyosincrasies, because I've seen a number of things in my short life thus far. And perhaps, because there has been so much variation, that is why my personality type is not as concrete as the rest of you all.

Just speculation, though.

[Arcanum]

I can really relate to all of what you guys are saying about having a weak Se. Some people (though it feels like most) don't know how much I hate being criticized about it.

Before I started driving, which was when I truly felt an improvement in my weak department, I had the worst sense of present location. I would think I was in a certain street because it looked like something I saw before, when in reality I was miles away from it.

I always see myself trying to avoid people who are very outwardly, specially when they hang out in groups. When I am with those people I feel that they somehow want to "fix" me by telling me to drink booz and be crazy.

[XoX]

Now what is it? There are INTjs here who do martial arts etc. So Se PoLR doesn't mean you can't be physical (or aggressive in a way). How would you decribe it? And does it manifest differently in INTj and INFj?

[Fermi]

You dont really have to be aggressive doing martial arts?

Guess I don't add anything to the thread though..

[XoX]

You dont really have to be aggressive doing martial arts?

Guess I don't add anything to the thread though..

Well you bumped the thread which is good And yes I guess you don't need to be aggressive. But you have to be physical. Is that a problem when you have Se PoLR? Being physical without being aggressive. Like do INTjs and INFjs do a lot of physical sports or is this rare?

[Joy]

PoLR means that INTjs don't ever notice anything physical, and are prone to have all of this sink in suddenly in moments of depression, causing them to go into crying fits.

I've seen it.

EQ =/= good career choice.

[Creepy-]

You dont really have to be aggressive doing martial arts?

Guess I don't add anything to the thread though..

Well you bumped the thread which is good And yes I guess you don't need to be aggressive. But you have to be physical. Is that a problem when you have Se PoLR? Being physical without being aggressive. Like do INTjs and INFjs do a lot of physical sports or is this rare?

There is always the chance that they are attracted to the philosophical aspects? There is more to martial arts then what you see on the surface. Also, as Superman says, it is not aout aggression.

However, if you watch different types doing martial arts (or really any other kind of sport), there is a difference in how they move.

Introversion vs. Extroversion

Introverts tend to conserve energy while extroverts tend to use it up.

Rational vs. Irrational

Rationals move mechanically while Irrationals move fluidly.
Irrationals generally have a bit of trouble practicing parts of movements/techniques, but where whole movements/techniques are involved they tend to be faster.

Static vs. Dynamic

The energy of Statics is mostly self-contained (they recover from falls/injury quicker as somehow they manage to significantly lessen the impact) while Dynamics tend to direct their energy (they'll put their whole body into throws etc. and they're very good at using momentum to their advantage).

That's my observations, anyway...

[XoX]

Static vs. Dynamic

The energy of Statics is mostly self-contained (they recover from falls/injury quicker as somehow they manage to significantly lessen the impact) while Dynamics tend to direct their energy (they'll put their whole body into throws etc. and they're very good at using momentum to their advantage).

What is static vs dynamic?

[Creepy-]

Static = Exxp, Ixxj (Ne, Se, Ti, Fi)
Dynamic = Exxj, Ixxp (Ni, Si, Te, Fe)

[XoX]

Static = Exxp, Ixxj (Ne, Se, Ti, Fi)
Dynamic = Exxj, Ixxp (Ni, Si, Te, Fe)

Umm...if your typing framework is valid I would say I'm DII (Dynamic-Irrational-Introvert). INTp or ISTp then? If I end up being ISTp (again) it sort of amuses me

[schrödinger's cat]

Se PoLR - could this mean that you have no idea what the correct degree of assertiveness is? The ketchup bottle effect: it's so hard to get anything out of your Se at all that you use too much energy and - whoops...

And/or could it also affect the way you perceive the world? Like, you (a) can't really see the significance of Se and would like to avoid it, and (b) you sometimes misjudge Se (e.g. mistakenly thinking someone is being aggressive, or thinking that Se people are "shallow")?

I'm not at all sure about the first point, and not quite sure about the second. It looks like some weak functions behave in that way - but which ones?

XoX: for you Delta should have a revolving door. "Welcome back... and goodbye... and he's back... no, off he goes..." Just kidding. You're nice. Stay in Delta.

[Joy]

what about people who just don't have any energy?

[Creepy-]

what about people who just don't have any energy?

That would be a white crow, as far as I can tell. Don't atoms still have energy at absolute zero even?

[Expat]

Se PoLR - could this mean that you have no idea what the correct degree of assertiveness is? The ketchup bottle effect: it's so hard to get anything out of your Se at all that you use too much energy and - whoops...

In the case of INFjs, that is exactly what I have observed.

[Mariano Rajoy]

the erratic Se becomes less eratic with age. with young LII, it is an avoidance of imposing oneself. if the LII is pushed into action, it is often a very violent affair. the longer it takes to get a reaction, the more violent the reaction is. these reactions may or may not reflect actual mental disorders such as depression.

http://socion.info/hiddenagendasecret.html

" tells its commandment and says - I can not demand, my surroundings will be left in constant chaos!"

at times this is a fear that manifests itself implicitly in thought. it is there, and it affects what is thought to be acceptable or not. it is very strange to acknowledge it, and be able to dismiss it or come to terms with it. this acknowledgment that constant chaos is not probable allows previous unacceptable courses of action to be found acceptable.

depression for the LII comes from completely ignoring the S and being ravaged by mental processes driven by this fear of creating chaos/negativity, that refuse to subsisde. certain questions or ideas that are very hard to resolve result in an ignoring of the unconscious, and hence depression.

for the record, i go to the gym 5-6 days a week and played team sports throughout high school. the Se was very usefull when unloading on someone.

edit: the last sentance is a good example of Se PoLR. the ketchup bottle effect manifests itself not just physically. it can be seen as tactlessness, and/or complete and brutal honesty. i will make a guess here and say that the less self confident the LII or EII is, the less likely they will be to actually impose themselves when outside of their comfort zone/Se repetoire. it takes a bit of a leap to be brutally honest in response to fear instead of withdrawal.

[Fermi]

hah.. infj exploding...

*points and laugh*





please shoot me someone!


*someone points a gun at my hand and pulls the trigger*

*my super superhead bounce it off and hit the shooter right in the heaaart!!!*

[Joy]

I can somewhat imagine if my bf was INTj. When it comes to a romantic relationship, keep the Se-PoLRs away from me! They are willing to give you all the power you want in exchange for one kiss. That's the worst thing ever. It's like offering gold on a silver plate. Just take it, no strings attaches. At first, the ENFj mother probably tried not to take advantage of the weak husband, but how long can anyone keep it up? Especially with the INTj willing to play dead and roll over. Like really. If there were a 100 gold coins on the table with someone saying, "please take it, I want you to take it" and you know you shouldn't take it, because it will lead you to the dark side, how long will it be until the gold is gone?

The INTj father is guilty for not being able to keep the ENFj under control. Of course the ENFj is also to blame, but if it had been an ISTj, she would never have been given such control over the entire household.

I haven't read this whole thread and I'm not going to... but I'm sorta with Kristiina on this one. The way she described it is a bit... insensative... but I definitely see where she's coming from.

I was with an INTj for three and a half years and I have an INFj sister, father, and sister in law. I'll describe my experiences with the INTj...

He didn't care what I did, as long as he didn't have to do anything or make any decisions or be reasonsible for anything. The only time he had any input on anything related to the household or any other day to day chores/errands/projects was if they directly affected his comfort or privacy. I was responsible for making all of the decisions, big and small. If I asked him, he wouldn't give me an answer other than that he didn't really care or that I should just take care of it or "how should I know?" with an annoyed expression. I would tell him how much his part of the bills came to and he would give it to me. He didn't even see the house I bought until after the offer had been accepted. I wasn't the only one who made life decisions for him, either. Every single job and residence he's ever had has been set up for him by a friend or family member. I had codependency and control issues at the time, so I made rules about who he was allowed to have over and someother smaller but rather ridiculous rules, and while he'd tell me that I was acting insane or mutter "whatever", he never argued or drew any lines. He also said that my enterprising nature was the least attractive thing about me and frequently commented that I care way too much about money (I don't ).

It's not that he's a wimp, it's that he just doesn't care. He doesn't value Se. The INFjs in my life are somewhat similar, but I've never been with any of them so it's not as significant to me as far as this particular example. While I may have somewhat of an incompatibility with INxjs (INTjs in particular), I don't think it's *bad* or *wrong* for them not to value Se.

ENxjs want a partner who is strong, decisive, has a get 'er done attitude, and doesn't hesitate to draw lines and stand up for what (s)he wants, needs, or believes. ISxjs say "Fuck that shit, they can't (insert relavant comment here)" while INxjs are saying "It doesn't really matter" (and they're generally sincere when they say this).

[Joy]

You've said before that the INTj that you were with was not healthy, at all, so it'd be a little shaky to base your opinion of them on his behavior.

That stuff isn't the reason he was unhealthy though... it's just a manifestation of needing to be with a Cargiver.

Also, you typed your sister as ISFp for the very reasons that you're now typing her as an INFj! It's circular.

I think there's been a misunderstanding.... I don't think she's INFj because of her lack of standing up for herself. The stuff we talked about in that regard was stuff I realized after figuring out that she's INFj.

She's INFj because she's like this, and INxjs are like this, and she's an example. You say things like if you were the one married to her husband he wouldn't treat you the way he treats her. You know, that's an easy thing to say, but you're never in someone else's life, you're not experiencing what she has, you may think that you can say with certainty that such a thing could not occur to you, but that's just foolishness. I've known people who strongly believed the same thing, that they would never end up in any similar kind of situation because they wouldn't put up with that kind of crap. But they did. The public face of emotional manipulators does not allow anyone to see their devious nature. You don't and won't be able to get it unless you've first-hand seen and experienced it. I've always wondered about women who get themselves into bad relationships with alcoholics, or physical abusers and such and won't leave. Why don't they just get out of there? How in the world do they keep falling for the lies, why can't they see through all that? Someone adept at emotional manipulation is 5000 times slicker, more convincing, and far better at gaining outside support to turn against someone. It is NOT type related!!!! They could and do pull this on everyone, not just people of a certain type, and before you cockily suggest that YOU'D be able to see through it, that's a pretty sure sign that you'd be duped.

The kind of behavior that the two of you are talking about, the quickly and easily giving in, the lack of any opinion of their own, the allowing themselves to be run over top of sounds a whole lot more like someone who has a low or nonexistant opinion of themselves, or depression than anything to do with type.

INFjs CAN be martyrs, but rather than it being about not being able to stand up for themselves, it's more about doing too much and not letting anyone help them. Too much pride rather than a lack of it. April and I discussed this a little awhile back - it's in a thread somewhere in delta. At least that's how I see it. The Se polr - as far as I can tell means we don't want to dance in public

This is all pretty much a separate issue. I'm not talking about unhealthy "please abuse me" behavior. I'm talking about a regular Se PoLR. Like I said, it's not bad... it's just a lack of value for Se. All of us have 4 functions that we don't value. Basically what I was describing was NOT the INTj letting himself get run over or failing to stand up for something that was important to him. If something was important to him, he'd find a way to stand up for it, Se PoLR and all. INxjs are not incapable... they're just not my dual or Kristiina's.

[FDG]

You've said before that the INTj that you were with was not healthy, at all, so it'd be a little shaky to base your opinion of them on his behavior.

Also, you typed your sister as ISFp for the very reasons that you're now typing her as an INFj! It's circular. She's INFj because she's like this, and INxjs are like this, and she's an example.

The kind of behavior that the two of you are talking about, the quickly and easily giving in, the lack of any opinion of their own, the allowing themselves to be run over top of sounds a whole lot more like someone who has a low or nonexistant opinion of themselves, or depression than anything to do with type.

INFjs CAN be martyrs, but rather than it being about not being able to stand up for themselves, it's more about doing too much and not letting anyone help them. Too much pride rather than a lack of it. April and I discussed this a little awhile back - it's in a thread somewhere in delta. At least that's how I see it. The Se polr - as far as I can tell means we don't want to dance in public

Word. Period. Right.

[Joy]

This is all pretty much a separate issue. I'm not talking about unhealthy "please abuse me" behavior. I'm talking about a regular Se PoLR.

Yes, it is a separate issue. I took that out, but my edit wasn't quick enough. What is going on with the page, everything went all weird? Anyway, it's what it sounds like you're both saying, especially with things like

They are willing to give you all the power you want in exchange for one kiss. That's the worst thing ever. It's like offering gold on a silver plate. Just take it, no strings attached. . .Especially with the INTj willing to play dead and roll over.

and

. Every single job and residence he's ever had has been set up for him by a friend or family member.

How is that a normal Se polr?

Like I said, it's not bad... it's just a lack of value for Se. All of us have 4 functions that we don't value. Basically what I was describing was NOT the INTj letting himself get run over or failing to stand up for something that was important to him. If something was important to him, he'd find a way to stand up for it, Se PoLR and all. INxjs are not incapable... they're just not my dual or Kristiina's.

Well of the 16 types only one of them is your dual. But there's no need to assign the negative characteristics of individuals to whole types, especially not as a distinguishing characteristic of the type when it doesn't hold true for most of the folks of that type.

- He could find his own jobs and cars and residences if he had to or wanted to, but as long as there's someone he can trust who wants to do it for him, he won't. That doesn't make him unhealthy. If he actually WANTED to handle those things on his own but didn't because of self worth issues, that would be another story.

- Again, who's calling these characteristics negative? I didn't... I merely said that I am not as compatible with someone who has 6th function as their 4th function. Again, no one is better than anyone else.

The point I was making was that I understand Kristiina's frustration (I think), though I wouldn't have put it like she did.

[Joy]

My sister is an IxFj, and having looked for any sign at all of a Ne PoLR and not seen it, and having seen evidence of a Se PoLR (granted, taken to an unhealthy extreme), INFj makes more sense. I originally discounted her unhealthy relationships and untimately decided that she's INFj > ISFj because of the lack of a Ne PoLR. The only people I've ever typed based on a Se PoLR have been INTjs I've known in passing who reminded me of the INTj I was with. I'm much more familiar with the INTj Se PoLR.

You're right... I don't value Ne and what I'm looking for, Se, I'm not seeing in INxjs. As I've said, that doesn't make them "bad", just incomatible with me. And yes, I would go as far as to call them "wimps" in my mind in moments of frustration. I'm sure there are a lot of names one could call anyone.

Perhaps "weak-willed" is too broad a word... they're just weak-willed in areas that Kristiina and I want/need a partner to be strong in. There are different ways that a Se PoLR manifests itself, not just the ones I mentioned in the PM to you. Maybe I was too quick to write you off as an INFj rahther than ISFj in our PMs because of the stuff we'd talked about. I'm sorry. I honestly don't see any evidence of any type of PoLR in you.

"INxjs are not forceful, aggressive and overpowering enough for me. I want someone who will take charge and lead me. In love games I give the greatest value to strong embraces and to the force of the man's body, being inferior to it, I demonstrate my submissiveness to the man's will."

I think you'd be less inclined to agree with her if she had said it that way.

yeah... you know I think that's just bullshit Perhaps it's more fitting for a Beta Ni type or an INxp? Besides, I maintain that it has nothing to do with "submissiveness to the man's will" over your own. His will is great as long as it doesn't conflict with what I want or need. (Which is also the point I'd like to bring up again for INxjs.... a Se PoLR is not about failure to stand up for what's important to them).

[Kristiina]

Perhaps "weak-willed" is too broad a word... they're just weak-willed in areas that Kristiina and I want/need a partner to be strong in. There are different ways that a Se PoLR manifests itself, not just the ones I mentioned in the PM to you. Maybe I was too quick to write you off as an INFj rahther than ISFj in our PMs because of the stuff we'd talked about. I'm sorry. I honestly don't see any evidence of any type of PoLR in you.

Yes, I agree. Joy's description of INTj is very similar to what I've experienced, although I have never lived with any of them. I don't think Se-PoLR people are always weak-willed (although some male INxjs can project a very wimpy feeling because they're ok with everything). People with Se-PoLR just often under-value their own personal opinions, which is a sign of weakness in my book. Standing up for what you believe in is easy. That it's not enough. A person should also have personal opinions.

Mhh.. That's it - I am opinionated but I hate making decisions. It would be great to share my insight with someone else and let them make the decision.

"INxjs are not forceful, aggressive and overpowering enough for me. I want someone who will take charge and lead me. In love games I give the greatest value to strong embraces and to the force of the man's body, being inferior to it, I demonstrate my submissiveness to the man's will."

I think you'd be less inclined to agree with her if she had said it that way.

I would agree with it 100%, if we lost the words "submissive" and "inferior". That's an urban legend. I think even beta NFs want to be appreciated, not pushed around like pieces of meat. I'm way too sensitive and tender for an aggressively forceful man.

But the submissive and inferior role is an important part of about 95% of my sexual thoughts.

PS! Diana, yet another misunderstanding. You were saying that the "weak-willed attitude of the INxjs comes from their low self-worth. I somehow got the impression that you were saying that I'm calling INxjs "weak-willed" because I have low self-worth.

[Joy]

I honestly don't see any evidence of any type of PoLR in you.

Well, I don't like to dance in public. It can make me feel self-conscious.

Peter says the same.