click on "ENTp" in my sig for my answer
I think the types that have the most trouble with authority (gags at the A word) are ENTp, ESTp, and ESTj... though INTxs prolly do as well, particularly if the authouty figure is a moron.
I do not respect people in authority positions as anything except parts of a system. If I respect the system and agree with what is being told to me, I will cooperate even if I do not like it. But it's logic that I am following... I am not obeying a person!
I also hate being told what to do. Especially if I canīt really "get even", because the person telling me what to do is my boss, for instance.
In business world itīs only logical that there is somebody who is responsible of how things are done, but some people have to push themselves to leadership positions in any possible situation. These same people seem to believe that just because of their promotion, they have magically gained wit and wisdom. I donīt really respect an authority figure, that canīt prove himself worthy of his/her position every day.
I'm more forgiving about mistakes and oversights, but when a leader has power issues or is unfair with employees... pfft, forget it. I do what I want.
If the order is okay, there's no problem.
Otherwise, I might very well crush debate-wise the person who gave the order.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I'm OK with authority, until they lose my respect. Usually by talking down to me. When that happens I do my best to covertly undermine them.
Of course, I still like to stay on good terms with them, even during the whole undermining process
When evaluating a manager, I ask myself "what would I want this manager to do in this situation if it were my company and I had hired the manager to run it for me. I respect the owner. That is who I work for. The manager is just another one of the employees.
What an entp issue! I used to hate authority and was quite rebellious.Originally Posted by ILENTp
And, as your quote says, now I am an authority figure in a couple of situations.
As an entp, I value change and innovation. You can't change the system without joining it.
You have to at least pretend to respect authority at work or else you'd be out of a job sooner or later. That is, unless you're crafty enough (or diabolical enough) to be able to see that the person you don't respect disappears somehow.
I hate being controlled and really any kind of authority, especially people who expect blind obedience, and especially obedience to stupid rules.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
ISTp's usually strongly dislike authority, and i'm no exception.
Exactly, i don't understand their motivation, attention? to feel important or socially elevated? who knows.ILENTp: I don't get authoritarian people, I have no pleasure in telling other people what to do. I let people decide for themselves and expect the same in return.
Couldn't have put it better myself.Joy: I do not respect people in authority positions as anything except parts of a system. If I respect the system and agree with what is being told to me, I will cooperate even if I do not like it. But it's logic that I am following... I am not obeying a person!
Interested in everything, yes, EVERYTHING
Flower's motto: Life's too short even to do the things you want to, let alone the things you dont!!
I dont have an issue with authority unless I feel that they are being abusive of it either objectively or subjectively. My thought has always been, "not without my permission." Meaning that Im only present for what I have signed on for. If not, authority #454332 can go fly a kite for all I care. The suck part of this is the scenarios where we have no choice :x
A few books stated that ENFjs do worst in the military. I agree with this. We simply ask "Why?" too much haha. Plus, you know, the sensory-clumsiness. But also about NiFe and a dislike of orders. They were referring to INFJ MBTI for this but with their opposites being Te/Si I could see how Socionics Ni/Fe could be similar. True/Untrue? Hellllllo, INFps? Or maybe even INFjs here, I dunno.
I don't mind orders when I can identify a purpose for following along. I have to figure out the following: What do I and others get out of it? Is there a "good" reason for me to follow? Or will following create an imbalance? Oh boy...I just realized, in midst of pressure, I'll follow any order because I'm too damn busy figuring out the pros and cons and whether I SHOULD OR SHOULDN'T. Ah! I'll end up trusting the order rather than my own inner compass. God damnit.Originally Posted by Jadae
lol you so have a love/hate relationship with my thoughts =) You sound like me sometimes with all the catalyzing of thought n' stuff.
Joe said something a while ago that I totally agree with. Something to the tune of "Even if someone commands me to do something that's completely rational, I won't do it, just to spite them for being a domineering ass." While that's a bit extreme, it pretty much nails how I respond to being ordered. When someone asks me to do something in a commanding way, even if I KNOW that it has to be done, I'll try to make an argument for not doingi t just to see if I can weasel my way out of it. For example, yesterday, my roommate asked me to clean up my side of the room, which definitely needed to be done (clothes everywhere, books stacked on the desk, etc.). But I just can't stand a peer telling me what to do or being commanding in any way, so I just make an argument for why I don't have to do it, if only to show that I'm not doing whatever it is just because they told me to.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
i disagree that ESTjs dislike authority. i think they belong within structured organisations, and quite conformist compared to, say, ENTps.
personally, i have no problem with authority IF a) the position of authority serves some justifiable purpose within the system, and b) the person in that position is not a moron OR if he is a moron, at least smart enough to let smart people have their independence in order to save his sinking ship.
i have a problem with authority when i am told to do something inane or pointless or plain stupid. i also have a problem with authority when i am discouraged or forbidden from indulging in my little quirks that i consider necessary to my thinking process, i.e. my mental freedom. hence why i am more notorious than famous within the first year of my job....
but if the person in charge is someone i consider competent for the job, i would follow willingly enough.
So, did this thread accomplish anything? Looks like everyone feels the same way about authority.
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
no way, ENTps respect "authority" the least... if ISTps didn't respect authority they wouldn't join the military and if ENTjs didn't, they wouldn't try to climb to corporate ladder (ENTps don't want anything to do with the ladder unless they're building it... the ENTjs can climb it all they want... some of them make good managers!)
It depends on how competent the authority is, you know. Blah blah blah.
I think I might just be arrogantOriginally Posted by Jadae
Join the club
so what, "typically", is the most arrogant introvert?
It depends. I see INTjs as arrogant, ISTps can also be pretty arrogant, INFp/INTps are just downright disdainful.
I'm okay with authority. Until they try to tell me what to do.
If they ask nicely, there's nothing I won't do. If they tell me to do something, I might still do it, but I'll hate them for it.
Or I might rebel. Who knows. Depends upon my situation.
I have no problem with authority but I DO have a problem with controlling people, redundancy, inefficiency, and people who are mired in doing things "the way they have always been done".
I can follow instructions and be told what to do as long as I'm not being treated like a child or an idiot. But I do need freedom to carry out the task once its been given to me. If its something simple I will actually tell the person, an explanation isn't necessary. Once they get to know me, they rarely give me explanations. If they have one though I will listen.
My job is very similar Diana.
It's not freelance but they just tell me what they want done, when they need it and I make it happen. I take a lot of pride in my work and don't tend to do things half assed at least professionally.
I see what your saying about your husband's family. I'm that way even with my own family so can't imagine taking it from someone else's. Oh...they have tried but my aggravation I think is pretty evident.
I have a hard time reconciling sometimes that they mean well. To me, they aren't offering me help because I need it but to make themselves feel more needed. I can listen to it a few times (but yes, do what I want despite).
I see a difference between authority and control. Authority is there to guide you if you need it and oversee operations. While somoene who is controlling takes away your independence and hinders your growth.
I have little value for hierachal systems. I think they are bad for business actually. In systems like that, only a few tend to have a voice. I don't think anyone should have their ideas silenced just because of their station at work. I never have, and I have moved up the ladder because of it but notice many around me were scared to pipe up because it wasn't "their place".
Who wrote all these silly unspoken rules anyway?
Authority to me is to be respected, if everybody were against authority there wouldnt be authority
I dont mind following authority either
Just want to clarify though, that just because I respect my boundaries when it comes to authority, it doesn't mean I don't think they are fallible and will butt heads with them if what I think they are doing is wrong and it has an impact on me. I see them as having no attributes usually that make them actually better than me.
I see authority as having a job to do, just like me. That is to ensure operations...anything above that i.e. trying to institute policies to control the way people think and act (if its just based on fear of something rather than an actual issues) is going beyond the mandate of authority as the way I see it.
Authority is supposed to be their to benefit the masses...not control it.
That's true...Originally Posted by Rylix
Everybody, if you just rise up in defiant insurrection against the machine it will fall! It must fall, for such is its nature!
Cookies and fried marshmallow for all nonconformists!
"Most people quickly learn that if they suggest something, that I'll listen to what they have to say, and then go ahead and decide for myself. I'll only take someone's advice if I've determined for myself that it's the best course of action, and only if I've asked for the advice to begin with. If I haven't asked for the advice, I can pretty much guarantee that I'll ignore it completely, or do the opposite of what they've suggested. "-Diana
LOL! I love it. You should watch Crossing Jordan. She does this all the time =) haha love that show.
i'm different from diana. if people give me unwanted advice, i also get pissed off. but if it's good advice, i'd probably take it anyway. when i cool down. i wouldn't do the opposite just coz i'm pissed off. but that person would've lost serious points of trust and brownie points with me. you don't gain that back easily with INTjs.
when people give advice, I listen.
How much I actually pay attention is a judgement call.
But you already knew that.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.