Fi base vs Fi creative

[Joy]

In my mother's case it was/is about both preserving the mood and the relationship and I have very little respect for this way of doing things. "selfless" = "martyr" in the long run. "poor me, all that I give up for this family, all that I hold inside to preserve the peace. SIGH" ugh. I guess it's just an unhealthy version of EII. And, I don't think she's nearly as bad now as she used to be when we were growing up.

To me that sounds more like self-pitying than "preserving the mood and the relationship". Someone who genuinely cares more about preserving the mood and the relationship than (s)he does about seeing him/herself as a victim will not behave in the manner in which you're describing.

I think it's more related to one's level of wellness and self-empowerment than it is to type.

THAT IS EXACTLY IT! exactly HER! yes, i thought EII from the beginning. i think she has always wanted everyone around her to duelize her, thus wanting everyone around her to work, work, work and Si, line everything up nice and neat.... i think she may have had some duelization then from her hubby but she has gotten "worse" about the matyrdom as she's aged....yuck.

There are a lot of types who behave this way. It's not exclusive to EII's.

[dbmmama]

Relationship would be related to Fi (though I don't know any Fi types who would behave precisely in the manner in which you're describing for the sole purpose of preserving the relationship), mood would be related to Fe.

Being non-confrontational could be related to weak/unvalued Se. Also, Te dominants have a Fe Role, so sometimes they worry too much about not upsetting people. (There are plenty of logical types who behaving illogically, btw. It's a matter of whether you're using the Socionics definition or the English definition of the word "logic".)

Anyways, people of many types could behave the way you described for a variety of reasons.

I'm a bit confused about your mil though... you describe her as both controlling/overbearing and non-confrontational... I'm having a hard time imagining the combination.

her controlling is in a MANIPULATIVE way!!!! she freely admits that manipulating people is the only way to get them to do what she wants them to. because people are not capable of "reasoning" and "talking" with, so, it's all done behind their backs. that is how she treats my children and those are the arguments that i have had with her mostly. treat my children with respect for the individuals they are. talk to them as you would any other person, they deserve respect not MANIPULATION. oh, shudddddders at that word. honest, straightforward, not coniving, hidden meanings, believing that children don't have minds or thoughts or feelings of their own. she NEEDS to force feed societies beliefs into them for them to be "good people."

oh, this is huge for me!

[Joy]

her controlling is in a MANIPULATIVE way!!!! she freely admits that manipulating people is the only way to get them to do what she wants them to. because people are not capable of "reasoning" and "talking" with, so, it's all done behind their backs. that is how she treats my children and those are the arguments that i have had with her mostly. treat my children with respect for the individuals they are. talk to them as you would any other person, they deserve respect not MANIPULATION. oh, shudddddders at that word. honest, straightforward, not coniving, hidden meanings, believing that children don't have minds or thoughts or feelings of their own. she NEEDS to force feed societies beliefs into them for them to be "good people."

oh, this is huge for me!

A couple other questions...

If she's that concerned with and good at manipulating people, why did her son's psychologists tell her that she was too overbearing?

Also, do you think she's truly a humanitarian, genuinely caring about and feeling empathy towards those less well off/in crisis, or do you think she acts like she does to fulfill a social role? Or is it out of loyalty to a belief system?

[redbaron]

To me that sounds more like self-pitying than "preserving the mood and the relationship". Someone who genuinely cares more about preserving the mood and the relationship than (s)he does about seeing him/herself as a victim will not behave in the manner in which you're describing.

Well it's subtle. I think she thinks she's hiding her feelings and thoughts for the sake of everyone else. And remember, the rest of us are alpha/beta. She was the only delta and often felt left out of the merriment. She'd get offended that no one was on her side and just stop trying.

I think it's more related to one's level of wellness and self-empowerment than it is to type.

It's certainly about one's level of wellness but I also think it has to do with her type. A combination.

There are a lot of types who behave this way. It's not exclusive to EII's.

Could be. But I've seen it a couple of times with EII.

[dbmmama]

Well it's subtle. I think she thinks she's hiding her feelings and thoughts for the sake of everyone else. And remember, the rest of us are alpha/beta. She was the only delta and often felt left out of the merriment. She'd get offended that no one was on her side and just stop trying.


It's certainly about one's level of wellness but I also think it has to do with her type. A combination.


Could be. But I've seen it a couple of times with EII.

yes, my mil is very uncomfortable with my hubby, my and my kids level of chaotic merriment. we're loud, crazy, fun, silly, goofy, bouncing off the walls, running in the house, jumping on furniture, making up plays, singing songs loudly, screaming when we're upset, crying because we don't get our way, expressing ourselves in creative ways.........all of this is not "proper."

[Joy]

Well it's subtle. I think she thinks she's hiding her feelings and thoughts for the sake of everyone else. And remember, the rest of us are alpha/beta. She was the only delta and often felt left out of the merriment. She'd get offended that no one was on her side and just stop trying.

That sucks.

It's certainly about one's level of wellness but I also think it has to do with her type. A combination.

What I meant to say was that no healthy/well person behaves that way, regardless of type. (And also that it's possible for people of a variety of types to behave that way for a variety of reasons.)

Could be. But I've seen it a couple of times with EII.

I'm not challenging your typing of these people because I don't know them, but I want to ask if it's possible that you've associated that behavior to EII's and have therefore been more likely to see people who behave that way as EII's?

Regardless, unhealthy EII's may be more likely to act that way than unhealthy people of other types. I'm just hesitant to use this behavior to type people.

[dbmmama]

A couple other questions...

If she's that concerned with and good at manipulating people, why did her son's psychologists tell her that she was too overbearing?

Also, do you think she's truly a humanitarian, genuinely caring about and feeling empathy towards those less well off/in crisis, or do you think she acts like she does to fulfill a social role? Or is it out of loyalty to a belief system?

the only thing i can think of is that my hubby told me that the psychiatrist told her "to back off and let him be, be himself." there is no backing off for her. you will mind. you will do as you're told. you will behave properly. otherwise, there is something wrong with YOU.

good question about the humanitarian stuff. that's hard to tell because she did it for so many years..................probably leaning toward the social role. she is based a lot on social properness and social roles, etc.... i personally despise social properness, be yourself man and have fun! of course, do it respectfully to others, but sing loud and strong, dance all night long!!!!!!! and kickass doing it!!!!!!

[redbaron]

yes, my mil is very uncomfortable with my hubby, my and my kids level of chaotic merriment. we're loud, crazy, fun, silly, goofy, bouncing off the walls, running in the house, jumping on furniture, making up plays, singing songs loudly, screaming when we're upset, crying because we don't get our way, expressing ourselves in creative ways.........all of this is not "proper."

you guys sound beta.

When I was growing up, we'd have dinners where my dad, my brother and I would be laughing so hard that my brother would be literally on the floor rolling around and my dad and I would be wiping the tears from our faces, it was so hilarious. And my mother? Sitting there with a slight grin on her face, truly unable to see what was so funny. I felt bad for her kinda but on the other hand I always had the thought "why doesn't she just join in?"

[redbaron]

What I meant to say was that no healthy/well person behaves that way, regardless of type. (And also that it's possible for people of a variety of types to behave that way for a variety of reasons.)

I'm not challenging your typing of these people because I don't know them, but I want to ask if it's possible that you've associated that behavior to EII's and have therefore been more likely to see people who behave that way as EII's?

Regardless, unhealthy EII's may be more likely to act that way than unhealthy people of other types. I'm just hesitant to use this behavior to type people.

okay. I hear ya. She has positive EII traits also I try not to use only negative traits to type anyone. Your point is well taken.

[dbmmama]

you guys sound beta.

When I was growing up, we'd have dinners where my dad, my brother and I would be laughing so hard that my brother would be literally on the floor rolling around and my dad and I would be wiping the tears from our faces, it was so hilarious. And my mother? Sitting there with a slight grin on her face, truly unable to see what was so funny. I felt bad for her kinda but on the other hand I always had the thought "why doesn't she just join in?"

yes, exactly. but my mil gives us the look of "disapproval" of rolling on the floor ".....only dogs do that and they belong outside....."

we had 4 kids because we just love the chaos and fun and craziness of it all. sometimes, i'd love for them to settle down just so i can watch a freakin basketball game, like last night. but, overall, i don't raise my kids to be "duds" as my dh and i call it. LOL

[redbaron]

we had 4 kids because we just love the chaos and fun and craziness of it all. sometimes, i'd love for them to settle down just so i can watch a freakin basketball game, like last night. but, overall, i don't raise my kids to be "duds" as my dh and i call it. LOL

you guys sound like a fun family! can I come over?

[dbmmama]

you guys sound like a fun family! can I come over?

as long as you don't mind that it's a complete mess over here!!!! because of the craziness, i never care too much about cleaning up. and you'll have to find food for yourself, i'm not a cook. shoot, i better get to the store. i tend to forget about having enough food in the house......

[Joy]

the only thing i can think of is that my hubby told me that the psychiatrist told her "to back off and let him be, be himself." there is no backing off for her. you will mind. you will do as you're told. you will behave properly. otherwise, there is something wrong with YOU.

Aside from sounding even more neurotic, I think this sounds more EJ than IJ.

good question about the humanitarian stuff. that's hard to tell because she did it for so many years..................probably leaning toward the social role. she is based a lot on social properness and social roles, etc.... i personally despise social properness, be yourself man and have fun! of course, do it respectfully to others, but sing loud and strong, dance all night long!!!!!!! and kickass doing it!!!!!!

Her behavior may seem Delta but the her motives do not.

you guys sound beta.

When I was growing up, we'd have dinners where my dad, my brother and I would be laughing so hard that my brother would be literally on the floor rolling around and my dad and I would be wiping the tears from our faces, it was so hilarious. And my mother? Sitting there with a slight grin on her face, truly unable to see what was so funny. I felt bad for her kinda but on the other hand I always had the thought "why doesn't she just join in?"

My family was like this as well. Beta parents, 2 Gamma children, 1 Delta child (the Delta didn't get as into it as the rest of us, but she laughed right along with us). It was usually myself and my mom (the two extroverts) leading the charge, so to speak. (Granted, I don't usually do that sort of thing anymore... laughing is always fun though.)

[redbaron]

as long as you don't mind that it's a complete mess over here!!!! because of the craziness, i never care too much about cleaning up. and you'll have to find food for yourself, i'm not a cook. shoot, i better get to the store. i tend to forget about having enough food in the house......

Your house sounds just like mine!

[redbaron]

My family was like this as well. Beta parents, 2 Gamma children, 1 Delta child (the Delta didn't get as into it as the rest of us, but she laughed right along with us). It was usually myself and my mom (the two extroverts) leading the charge, so to speak. (Granted, I don't usually do that sort of thing anymore... laughing is always fun though.)

Your dad is IEI, right? What type is your mom?

[Joy]

Yes, my dad's IEI and my mom is SLE (EIE would be my second choice for her). Brother's ILI, sister's EII.

[Blaze]

dbmmamma's family does sound totally beta. and totally fun. can i come over, too? lol

dbm, i still stand by EIE for you. i just totally see it.

[marooned]

dbmmamma's family does sound totally beta. and totally fun. can i come over, too? lol

dbm, i still stand by EIE for you. i just totally see it.

yes, I think leading makes *a lot* of sense. Perhaps it is the enthusiasm for everything... and it seems you like emotions to be put out there in the open, dbmmama... I think that goes with leading or at the very least valuing of some sort.

[redbaron]

I agree with Loki and Sunshine

[dbmmama]

yes, I think leading makes *a lot* of sense. Perhaps it is the enthusiasm for everything... and it seems you like emotions to be put out there in the open, dbmmama... I think that goes with leading or at the very least valuing of some sort.

i'm thinking it's Fe valuing of some sort...maybe... I'M not as expressive as I encourage my kids to be. and maybe it's all relative.... what i think is happening is i'm not *shining* with my own expression in lieu of allowing my kids' to shine more and that is what is contributing to me not being happy right now.... but, what scares me is that when i do let loose, i'm not paying as much attention to them and that is what my mom did to me that contributed to me not feeling understood because it was all about HER. i don't want to do that to my kids, so, i dial myself down a notch to help THEIR potential shine more. i need to find a balance between all of us. but with this many crazies in one house....we have more and more fights and i don't care for that.

[marooned]

out of curiosity, dbmmama, have you read this?

(not trying to move thread off topic... )

[redbaron]

i'm thinking it's Fe valuing of some sort...maybe... I'M not as expressive as I encourage my kids to be. and maybe it's all relative.... what i think is happening is i'm not *shining* with my own expression in lieu of allowing my kids' to shine more and that is what is contributing to me not being happy right now.... but, what scares me is that when i do let loose, i'm not paying as much attention to them and that is what my mom did to me that contributed to me not feeling understood because it was all about HER. i don't want to do that to my kids, so, i dial myself down a notch to help THEIR potential shine more. i need to find a balance between all of us. but with this many crazies in one house....we have more and more fights and i don't care for that.

going through something similar at our house. I wasn't understood by my mom either (tho it wasn't for her lack of trying) and although I don't feel the need to dial down my own expression, all of us are creative or leading Fe in this house and it does get to be a bit much. Fighting but then also just bouncing off the walls. Noise for the sake of noise, singing (which is great to a point), competitive card games, and heave forbid we go for longer than 2 hours without eating because everyone's blood sugar drops and we all get cranky at the same time. makes...me...want...a...nap....yawn

[dbmmama]

going through something similar at our house. I wasn't understood by my mom either (tho it wasn't for her lack of trying) and although I don't feel the need to dial down my own expression, all of us are creative or leading Fe in this house and it does get to be a bit much. Fighting but then also just bouncing off the walls. Noise for the sake of noise, singing (which is great to a point), competitive card games, and heave forbid we go for longer than 2 hours without eating because everyone's blood sugar drops and we all get cranky at the same time. makes...me...want...a...nap....yawn

that's about it! but, it's my husband that wants the nap! i just keep going and going and going and going........everything is some kind of competition too! it's too much for my sister, the everything is a competition thing. but, for us, it's all in fun. it's HOW we bond.

[dbmmama]

out of curiosity, dbmmama, have you read this?

(not trying to move thread off topic... )

yes, i have. i'm starting to believe i'm beta now. but, i'm having a hard time between them. i can act like all four of them actually. which came first, the chicken or the egg? Fe or Ti or Ni or Se?

and i don't mind you changing the direction. at this point, all of the threads i'm starting are about me figuring out my type somehow anyway...through the topics i start...

[ScarlettLux]

Damn, you ARE EIE. That sucks.

[redbaron]

Damn, you ARE EIE. That sucks.

why? I love EIEs

[Blaze]

Damn, you ARE EIE. That sucks.

yeah. why does that suck? EIE's are awesome!

[dbmmama]

Damn, you ARE EIE. That sucks.

don't worry, i'm not 100% convinced.

[ScarlettLux]

don't worry, i'm not 100% convinced.

You know I'm joking right?

[dbmmama]

You know I'm joking right?

no, sorry. so many people in my life have not liked me....i jump to that conclusion too easily...

thanks.

[dbmmama]

btw scarlettlux,

i like your sig. my hubby and i HAVE that fairy tale.....it is SO COOL.

[kensi]

do i have this right?

a simplification:
Fi base is concerned about the morally right thing in relationships and carries it out with either an Se physical way of doing it or an Ne open possibility allowing.

where Fi creatives go about being either Se physical with the world around them and stop short at a certain point if it's not morally right or would be open to allowing possibilities and stop short at a certain point if it's not morally right.

meaning the Fi base always has their morally right antenae on and
the Fi creative turns theirs on just enough to "get by," not that it's weak but just not as "always there" as Fi base people.

good summary...keeps things simple...shows the angles

[Amber]

do i have this right?

a simplification:
Fi base is concerned about the morally right thing in relationships and carries it out with either an Se physical way of doing it or an Ne open possibility allowing.

where Fi creatives go about being either Se physical with the world around them and stop short at a certain point if it's not morally right or would be open to allowing possibilities and stop short at a certain point if it's not morally right.

meaning the Fi base always has their morally right antenae on and
the Fi creative turns theirs on just enough to "get by," not that it's weak but just not as "always there" as Fi base people.

Fi creative rarely has an ethical stance on things ime. Political interest (and abilities) would be a better word for it.
Their position is prone to changing ...as are their relationships. However ofc sometimes they do fall in love etc. and want to maintain a bond ...in which case they try to introduce breaks in a relationship or else they get bored and fuck it all up.

But Fi dom is not primarily about morality. ...it's about identity imo.

[Beautiful sky]

Both are highly ethical; the difference is where their ethics is derived and how it's reflected. While Fi ethics is very personal and may or may not reflect that of society (that all depends on luck, honestly), Fe is purely derived from society and reflects back to it. Imagine now Fe of someone who is ESE and Armenian and hates the Turks and the Fe of someone who is Turkish and lives in Turkey. Their Fe is in very much conflict with one another because they are from two societies, one hates the other while the other feels a suppression.