LMAO. LokiV actually scared Sirena. Who is taking emotional comments as facts now?
LMAO. LokiV actually scared Sirena. Who is taking emotional comments as facts now?
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Originally Posted by Gilly
I think that's a good way to see it, regardless of one's type. Your focus is on forward/upward movement (not in an EJ "GOALS GOALS GOALS" sort of way, but in a seeking wellness sort of way). This will serve you well.
I don't think there's any value in trying to spread misery (in doing so you're only focusing on it more, which only causes more of it for yourself), but I do think it's really important to be honest with yourself about your feelings because they are important indicators.Even when I'm unhappy or my life has taken a downturn, it would make me more unhappy if everyone around me felt it too. I know I could get over the "emotion" of it (which is not the same as the understanding of it) if I create atmospheres where people can be supportive and loving.
Hmm interesting I have some views on this matter too I don't know if anyone agrees but... in terms of people 'appearing fake' to others, in my experience there's individuals that seem to overcome this. I suppose they'd be "self-actualized" or whatever you want to call it but they've developed a certain kind of social responsibility that even if they're a member of your opposing quadra they don't seem fake.
Different types seem to have different defense mechanisms, and when they perceive they're being attacked they lash out aggressively with their strong functions. I find it's usually an exaggerated use of the strong function that causes problems because it can seriously hurt someone not prepared for it. For an Fe type it's usually, like Joy was saying, an emotional outburst on a ridiculous magnitude, like screaming "I HATE YOU!". For Se types a physical threat (or with Se females malicious gossip), with Fi types a kind of moral condemnation, for Ni types a sudden vengeful cold avoidance etc. Because the leading function is basically a person's natural state of being it makes sense that when threatened they'd instinctively revert to it full force.
But that being said a person of any type can overcome this. For example my aunt and uncle are ESTj and ENTj respectively, and both have a healthy lifestyle and I know that they want me to be who I am and they never reprimand me for using functions, which according to socionics they don't value. Like my uncle Te'd my resumee to bits but did it without being condescending at all (somehow turned my paragraphs into sentences lol) And my aunt, an ESTj accountant, was quick to encourage me to find a career in creative writing/journalism (fields that value Ni and Fe that most ESTjs would dismiss as not being real jobs).
Also I find that it's also possible to view my dual, for example, as acting 'fake', particularly if said person is going through difficult times or is simply immature. But in such situations I still feel a certain sense of compassion towards them... like instead of judging them outright as being fake on purpose I try to understand what brought them to act like this
edit: I can't remember where I read it but I remember reading something about how duality can actually serve as a natural cure for neurotic behaviour.... thought it was interesting, wish i could find where it was
Last edited by misutii; 05-28-2008 at 01:19 AM.
INFp-Ni
Originally Posted by Joy
I've heard from an INFj that when she gets angry, they don't want to let the other person know this. Her logic is that she still cares about the other person, so she doesn't want the current anger ruin the relationship.
One ILE told me about one time when he was hanging out with an EII and everything was going well. 2 weeks later he heard from a third person that the EII suddenly hates him for saying something insensitive that time and the EII is not willing to hang out with him anymore.
My logic says that stability in a relationship can only come when important emotions are expressed. When both people know what's going on and when there is no secret hatred or anything. When the Fe type has an "Fe-explosion", Ti type is typically well aware that the Fe type cares about them. That's because the Fe type person has expressed it in many ways and many times already.
EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
E3 (probably 3w4)
Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!
Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/
Although I see your point and think we agree on the final goal, I don't think that having an explosion is a constructive way of communicating, especially knowing how it could affect the other person. It will often do more damage than good, however good we think it might feel to let those words out at the time. Those of us who value Fe should also be able to control how we express our emotions, doing otherwise I consider is irresponsible. In other words, there should be a balance between being able to express yourself and doing so in a way that will get the right message across. While I agree that we should let others know how we feel, we should do so in a way that the other person can be receptive to, especially if they are not Fe valuer types. We should not assume that the other person will somehow know that we don't mean what we say. Words are powerful. I'm not saying I've never made this mistake, but when I have I don't use the "this is just how I am" cop out. I take responsibility for my words and actions. So in my opinion, communication is key, when done in a non-threatening and constructive way.
Above two posts nicely show the difference between leading and creative Fe.
just in case you guys take me too literally and think I'm a raving madman - usually I prefer insulted "I don't want to talk with you because of these reasons: ..." explained silent treatment to "I HATTTE YOU! I despise you and I hope you die and you suck and you are horrible and I hate you I hate you I hate you!!!" angry Fe explosion.
I have the other ones about once in 3 months and I don't remember the last time it was directed at the person I was talking with (excluding Kim, it must have been my SLI ex about 7 years ago). In stead my angry Fe explosions are more indirect, "The computer SUCKS! I hate it!!!!!" or "Can you imagine she actually told me that?! What a bitch!!!"
But when I'm just generally angry even at the ILI, I tell him very directly without sugarcoating, "I think it was your fault and I am angry." Mhh... I realized I never tell him I am angry at him. Must be some subconscious way to avoid going against his Fi-hidden agenda. I make the problem sound pretty inanimate, I describe what should have happened and what should have been done, but I don't really tell him, "you should have done this!"
EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
E3 (probably 3w4)
Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!
Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/
this is an interesting convo guys!
yes, you can really tell the difference between Fe base and creative here. and even though Kristiina explained how she's not a "mad woman" you can still here how it's MORE than the creatives.
i am completely on board with the creatives way of seeing and doing it!!!!! absolutely!
great post qbsirena06! +100000 sweetheart!!
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
Storms and weather fronts lose their potency when they reach the impassable and unmovable mountains. But the mountains like it that way, since at least they get all the rain that they need for their mountainous slopes. The mountains do not mind either; they have been there for thousands of years, and they know that however angry the storms are or however dark the clouds may seem, it will pass and the skies will become blue and sunny following the storm. The sky is a harsh and fickle mistress, but the mountains still embrace her ways and she still seeks to cling to their rocky exteriors and shed tears on their unmoving shoulders.
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
That was beautiful. I think my eyes may have teared slightly.Originally Posted by Logos
I completely relate to this Loki. I guess there is a big difference to the way Fe dominants and creatives express their Fe. If someone makes me angry, then I might yell about the issue at hand, but I wouldn't make sweeping statements that I know would hurt the person for no reason. I wouldn't tell someone I loved them either unless I really meant it. But that's just who I am. I don't feel like saying those things unless I really mean them. Whereas it might be genuine for an Fe-dominant to have flashes of contradictory emotions and to express these - it would be a consciously-manipulative manoever if I were to do the same.
My emotions can be intense, but I don't feel like they distort reality. I feel like I'm responsible for my own emotional state, so I don't have any right to let others suffer through no fault of their own. I would actually prefer it if I could sit down calmly with someone I have a problem with and discuss it, but I usually can't. :-( So it's not my choice to get emotional normally, but that doesn't mean I'm not being rational about what I'm saying.
My sister is ENFj and her 'tantrums' used to disturb me too. She used to yell at me and call me hurtful things and then be all lovey-dovey the next day as if nothing had happened - and I would think "Well, if I wasn't to believe you when you said you hate me, then why should I believe the opposite now?" I don't like that sort of behaviour ... but then I'm the ENFj's supervisor, so maybe I'm supposed to feel disapproving?? Idk.
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
You see, it would be interesting to know how the EII would have described it, because the way you (and the ILE, right?) put it is already seen through Fe eyes. You make it seem like Fi is a sort of "hidden Fe". I wouldn't think that, from the point of view of the EII, it was about saying something "insensitive" - which is already a Fe concept. Fi would be more about saying something contemptible, or untruthful, or with bad intentions. You know the Larry David persona in curb my enthusiasm? He's often telling small lies to his wife - not with the intention to cause any harm, sure, just because it helps him avoid getting into long and/or unpleasant discussions or explanations with her. That is the kind of thing that makes an EII slowly lose hope and eventually say "enough".
"Suddenly hates him" is also a Fe interpretation. I think it would be more like a final decision on something that had been gradually building up, as the EII lost respect for the ILE gradually. And I'd suggest that there were signs of that, that "not everything was going well" at all; but the ILE was oblivious to it (weak Fi).
Obviously, I don't know the story itself (or even if the types are correct). I'm just saying how that is a good example, to me, of how both an EIE and ILE can totally misunderstand how Fi dominants really go about things.
Okay, so it's up to the other person to just know which Fe to take seriously or not, right?
Let me tell one story.
I lodged with a Fe ego guy once. On occasion he would explode, triggered by some minor conflict, and go "that's it! You annoy me to no end! Maybe you should just move out!!!!!!"
Okay, the next day he'd be sweetness and light. But I'd be thinking, "hmmm, ok, it was an outburst, but if he said that it's because he does think about kicking me out at some level. How do I know when the next outburst will be, and how far it will go? Maybe next time he will go all the way and indeed tell me to move out. How do I know? Okay, I'd better start looking for alternatives, rather than be dependent on his unpredictability".
So, "the Fe person has already expressed in many ways that he cares". But I can equally say that "the Fe person has already expressed in many ways that he's annoyed". So, I am the one who's supposed to just know what the Fe person meant, and what they didn't mean? How do I know that the angry outbursts are not the real feelings, and the "sweetness", just a polite facade?
I prefer not to have to deal with this kind of thing at all.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
me too. it's my oldest who does this to me. he has to know exactly when something is going to happen ahead of time. i don't know when something will happen until i feel the moment is right for it to happen. but i know it will happen. and he doesn't trust that it will happen if he doesn't have a time limit on it. so, he nags me. but all it does is makes me change my mind and NOT do it. we work on this one...... so i can feel free to not be pressured about when but he can feel assured that it will happen.
...
Last edited by Suomea; 09-27-2008 at 10:34 PM.
Suomea
i believe my sis has Fi and it has helped me understand where she's coming from with her way over the years. not that i agree and it's actually a continual process to keep on getting it but it sures helps to understand others who do what you say here.
i know i want honest emotional and thought info. and my mil, i believe is INFj, is like pulling teeth to get it from her over the years. i had to really realize to stop trying. but, she gives off these very subtle eye movements that tell me what she's really thinking or feeling and then i act accordingly rather than with her words. she is usually pleasantly surprised when i do that and is completely seething underneath if i don't. she NEVER comes right out and says what she wants/needs/likes, etc. i can tell not by her words, because they are always "nice." but by her body language, especially the eyes (of anyone actually).
and being a huge people pleaser myself, i am constantly trying to "read" people for what they actually want and/or need from me, but wishing they would just come out and tell me. and then i'm more than happy to accomodate then.
I think there are two ways I perceive Fe. There's the Fe that makes demands: to join the group dynamic for the sake of the mood, ask 'how are you' when you greet people, when you don't intend to actually wait for an answer, Fe that demands that you interpret the above-mentioned emotional outbursts and know how to deal with them. In all these cases I am very much aware how Fe is my polar. I can't do this well, and usualy refuse to try
There's also a more subtle (and undemanding) use of Fe, that I think I might even seek out on occasion. Two IEIs I know are some of the best people I know to go to when I'm feeling down. If I am in a bad mood or troubled by something, it's as if I intentionally seek out the emotional manipulation that will cheer me up. I really don't notice the how of it, only that I consistently walk away in a better mood. Somehow I feel safer giving weight to emotions in their presence. I can say something's bothering me without feeling like I'm dumping unwanted and irrelevant emotional baggage, and they will know just what to say. Maybe this is Fe tempered by Fi or Ni or some other function, but it's a type of Fe expression that I greatly apreciate and value.
ILI
¿Qué es la vida? Un frenesí.
¿Qué es la vida? Una ilusión;
una sombra, una ficción
y el mayor bien es pequeño.
¡Que toda la vida es sueño
y los sueños, sueños son!
hmm. i can relate to this.
and where i wonder, why do people go "how are you" or "what's up", when they don't really expect an answer.
now that you mentioned it... that it's only a greeting, i get it. lol.
i'd get so stressed thinking, am i suppose to say how i'm doing, or what's new in my life.
i can also relate to the "refusing to try" part, since it's awkward doing it, and pretty pointless to me.
i think Fe PoLR types have emotional outbursts too actually, because they're weak at it, thus not very good at controlling it. But from my observations, it's more of a "volcano" effect, where the frustration is probably stored for awhile before it "erupts".
INTp
sx/sp
would that be considered "passive aggressive" because it just builds up and then explodes? my dh does that. i have to constantly be helping him "get it out" more often so he doesn't do that, especially to the kids. he appreciates that because he doesn't LIKE exploding, he likes that i help things to be smoother sailing for him all of the time.
I don't know, probably. And I "explode" more often than some other people I know, too. I prefer to react right away to what bugs me if the circumstances allow it and my bigger explosions are usually the ones that have built up because of me not having the opportunity to let it out earlier. But they are all pretty much short and sharp, unlike say some EIEs' constant display of changing emotional states some of which can last for very long and be very intense and powerful.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Originally Posted by Gilly
i'm kinda a mixture of both. i help him and my kids get stuff out so they are more emotionally healthy. but i personally can have changing emotional states. i don't think they are as often as Fe dom though. my hubby actually helps me to stay more even keel and balanced. we meet each other in the middle, so to speak.
sometimes he just needs to explode and i understand that and sometimes i enjoy the ups and downs of experiencing different emotions and he understands that.
I don't explode, never have. I don't even know if I've ever real felt anger towads anyone. Resentment and dislike and frustration, yes. But they never lead to anger or rage. It's an emotion I don't fully understand and can only try to imagine. It's not that I keep emotions repressed (which implies a build-up of pressure that will have to be eventually let out) so much as subdued. I prefer not to stray too much from an emotionaly baseline. Thus the argument that emotions need to be 'let out' (an Fe-valuing stance, maybe?) has felt narrowminded, since ignoring the transient mood and allowing it to pass is an equally effective way of dealing with it.
ILI
¿Qué es la vida? Un frenesí.
¿Qué es la vida? Una ilusión;
una sombra, una ficción
y el mayor bien es pequeño.
¡Que toda la vida es sueño
y los sueños, sueños son!