Madonna Louise Ciccone

[dbmmama]

Yes, I'm a product of the 80s and Madonna is Godlike to me. For the reason of us being so similar and what I aim for in my being my best me.

I have been considering other types again for myself and this is going around in circles for me again. There are just too many things I do and do well and focus on to pick only two as my strengths. I am strong in most of them. And the couple I am not, I am working on. I value them all.

She is famous for saying when her career began "I want to rule the world." She didn't do this in a "I'm going to physically fight you, literally kick your ass way." She went about it serendipitiously through her singing career and then some. She is FULLY ENGAGED in all of the aspects in life.

My goal in life has been to be fully engaged in every way possible. When I use each of the elements, I USE THEM.

I came here to conquer the world, but my means has been through family, raising my children and the spiritual world/view, while opening others' awareness to all the aspects to life so everyone CAN truly live their OWN life in their own fully engaged way.

Thanks for any comments.
Love,
Kelly Jo

[Blaze]

madonna, to me, is a benchmark female SLE.

[dbmmama]

madonna, to me, is a benchmark female SLE.

Sunshine Lively,

With that being said and you have your type as XLE, do you identify with her? And if you lean more toward ILE, what do you see as the difference?

Thanks!
Love,
KJ

[dbmmama]

a more general question then....

how can you tell when someone is an ILE that overcompensates in and and is then strong in both vs. someone that is SLE that overcompensates in and and is then strong in both?

If Madonna is SLE, she seems a very "openminded to new possibilities" kind of person to me. I don't know if she is a pig at home. But I know I sure am as well as very scatterbrained with practical stuff.

I have so many things that point in different directions, I have to let this go for a while..........

love
kj

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

She is actually quite practical yet spiritual at the same time. ((She mentors Britney on not smoking, has kind of a hidden blue collar-ish mommy charm to her underneath her glamorous image)) She has a Hollywood sense of self-importance and thinking she can change the world for a better place, but that just comes with the job.

She doesn't understand she has to make sacrifices to help people though. She says she wants to do the stuff Gahndi did w/o dying. She wouldn't hurt herself to help others, so in many people's eyes she'll never be a true hero like she wants to be.

She reminds me a lot like my cousin Julie, who also lives in California.

She's very direct and fag hag-ish, and since I am quiet and nice (yet we still have the same ideals I think) we would get along very well together. I've always had a knack for socializing with celebrities. I admit, I try not to go too crazy when I talk about her because it's so fucking cliched, but I think she's okay.

I talked to a lot of celeb types and they always approach me talking about how I'm spiritual and shit. They're kinda psycho, but I like them. I just talked with a few of them at the Hilton in Chicago (the FONZE was there- forgot his name). But I wanted to kinda tell them to buzz off and eat their own farts, because you all know what I think of social status and the like. Still, I'm stuck with them because they're very pro-gay and friendly to me, whereas people that are more folky are always anti-gay and standoffish about it. That stereotype has come true about 99 times out of 100.

[machintruc]

Madonna is SEE 00+

[Blaze]

Sunshine Lively,

With that being said and you have your type as XLE, do you identify with her? And if you lean more toward ILE, what do you see as the difference?

Thanks!
Love,
KJ

very good question. i have not gotten around to changing my signature. my type is ILE, with some modest improvements in the functioning of Se over the last 20 years, which confused type diagnosis for awhile. i think my subtype must be Ti, since i lean toward beta more than delta. i am comfortable in alpha, too, but sometimes alpha seems to act kind of silly, which i don't fully flow with.

SLE's in my opinion are well tuned into the deep needs and motivations of others and their inner resources and resolve, and have a clear grounding in the present. their concrete thinking is quick and decisive. this is what makes them able to lead people so well. they can force people into behaviors. but they are unempathetic and harsh to people's feelings and weaknesses. they step on people. but they are quite grounded in reality and have mass appeal.

ILE's have a terrific handle on time, possibilities, and potential, of people, situations, things, ideas, and their future applications. their abstract thinking is quick and decisive. they can figure out almost any complex problem, identify clear solutions, and logically convince others. they are naive about relationships and make themselves look bad by making awkward social mistakes related to boundaries. they are intellectually idealistic and have intellectual appeal.

does that help?

[discojoe]

I've always found her rather attractive.

As to type, at first glance I can only really narrow it down to Te/Fi. I could see Delta or Gamma.

[implied]

I've always found her rather attractive.

As to type, at first glance I can only really narrow it down to Te/Fi. I could see Delta or Gamma.

uh, what delta?

[UDP]

well?

[discojoe]

Search function.

[implied]

Search function.

yeah.

[tcaudilllg]

IEI. You can tell it very easily from her modeling as a young woman. The VI is right on.

(do a search for her nudes and you'll find the pic I'm talking about. Her skin is milky white

[munenori2]

(do a search for her nudes and you'll find the pic I'm talking about. Her skin is milky white

Yeah, that is pretty definitively IEI, huh?

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[tcaudilllg]

She's IEI. No other type would have made those statements.

It appears to me that a lot of you need to take your studies of the function order more serious-- screw this. If you haven't grasped the functions by now, you may never. She's IEI, end of story.

I hope I'm not the only person here who knows IEI talk when they see it.

[JuJu]

She is SLE.

For those who've suggested other types: honestly, it might benefit you to study socionics a bit more before you do any more typing... I'm sorry to say it, but yeah, maybe it'll help in the long run.

[strrrng]

she is a walking epitome of an ESTp.

[Steve]

She is SLE.

For those who've suggested other types: honestly, it might benefit you to study socionics a bit more before you do any more typing... I'm sorry to say it, but yeah, maybe it'll help in the long run.

+100

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Beyond Madonna's selfishness, slutiness and materialism there's ...

Even more selfishness, more slutiness and more materialism. (LOL)

Seeing Through Madonna.

To say Madonna is a narcissist is not all that accurate, as deep down narcissists don't like themselves. That is to be pitied and is respectable. Deep down, Madonna really is self-confident and can probably tank 15 mobs at once, that's what makes her so annoying and not likeable. You could try to beat her up and make her cry, but she's visited too many of those dark cultist 'workshop' meetings for you to get through to her.

So she's always the one that bites, and never gets bited.

This is the root core of her issue. Madonna is looking for somebody that's abusive enough to get through to her, but also tragic enough for her to be the one that saves them. Though she absorbs other people's hatred and jealousy just to make herself stronger.

Madonna's darkest fantasies is to find the loneliest, most naive, most empathetic, most tortured soul and inspire that soul, and then abuse that soul, and then inspire that soul. Abuse, inspire, abuse, inspire, abuse inspire. Over and over and over again. She has a 'I'm the best mommy' complex. To be inspired you have to know what abuse feels like. Madonna is in an intense competition with others to see who can inspire the most souls. And she's authentic in the sense that, who she portrays herself to be and who she really is isn't as different as it is in most people's cases, but like anybody else she stills wears a mask.

If you don't need inspiration, you are useless to her.

Madonna's True Self isn't the person who travels the world and is highly famous. Madonna's True Self is to find a person she can lock in a dungeon and torture and then save. She doesn't want people to get too sensitive about this, she forgives herself and doesn't think she's doing anything wrong because 50% of her does genuinely want to save them. And be the lone savior. Nobody can know but them. It ruins everything for her if somebody finds out or if somebody sees through her wanting to do this and if they can see through it, she will change her tactics and instead 'soften up more' in public and not be so 'hard-ass independent woman-ish.' She will make you like her so you don't tell the world that she wants to find somebody to lock up and be alone with.

Madonna has done so much intense meditation and spiritual training that going up to her is really tough. She is of course a Raid Boss. But 35 gay male shamans working together, could do it. Madonna inspires others so the true heroes in the world (and there's only about 25 of them at any given time) will ignore her and so she can be left to hunt for the shyest girl to empower. She's a lot like Pink.

[Sol]

ESTP

[Birdie]

You're scary.

[Sol]

You're scary.

But I'm right.

[Creepy-pokeball]

ESTp 8w7. Compare to Kesha, an ESTp 7w6. Its amazing how much enneagram can alter the perception of another's socio-type.

[Creepy-male]

35 gay male shamans versus 1 madonna lmao, I'd love to see that.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

That's the thing. I don't think what she wants is all that twisted.

She's afraid to love things cause they will leave her. If she locks them up they can't leave her.

I'm sorry if I sounded like I was pissed at her in my analysis.

35 gay male shamans versus 1 madonna lmao, I'd love to see that.

I need to make a comic.

[Ave]

Yeah, SLE. This is the most obvious typing ever.

[Morcheeba]

She has always kinda creeped me out, looks and acts just like my mother.

[UDP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idfzb4rtqMs

Is this IEI-ish? o.O

What an amazing suite he has.

[discojoe]

In the video esper posted I can see the ESTp, but in last 15 years I have a lot of trouble seeing it for some reason.

[dbmmama]

In the video esper posted I can see the ESTp, but in last 15 years I have a lot of trouble seeing it for some reason.

it's called growing up, maturing, balancing and evolving into a person who becomes good at all of their valued elements. yea, cool.

[dbmmama]

it's called growing up, maturing, balancing and evolving into a person who becomes good at all of their valued elements. yea, cool.

or it's the opposite and she was an IEI kid who's mother died when she was young and it fucked her up so badly she went into her other valued elements to "protect" herself and seem so bad and strong and then "ruled the world" to prove she was worth it. and now as she has settled down and become a mom, she's gotten back into her own spiritual knowing and seems like the natural IEI that she is.

that seems more likely to me.

[HERO]

I'm inclined to agree with the Ti-ESTp typing of her.

Madonna: Ti-ESTp (Normalizing subtype) [SLE-Fi] (ESTp-INFj)






"I made a vow that I would never need another person ever/Turned my heart into a cage/A victim of a kind of rage"














- from Life With My Sister Madonna by Christopher Ciccone (with Wendy Leigh); pp. 15-16 (PROLOGUE): Madonna exits the stage. After a few minutes, a performer in the blue satin Pierrot costume and sad-clown mask reappears. This time—although the audience won’t know it until she removes her mask—Madonna is playing the clown.
As children, we were rarely taken to the circus, but as adults, Madonna and I loved seeing Cirque du Soleil in Battery Park, Manhattan. We both loved the Cirque du Soleil because of the sexy, bizarre, and fresh way in which they approached the concept of the circus . . . . There is, however, something of an irony in my sister dressing as a clown, because she is the world’s worst joke teller. I cringe whenever she attempts to tell a joke, either in private or in public, because she always botches the punch line.
I understand that her basic inability to be truly funny stems from the childhood loss of our mother. For even in the midst of the upbeat Girlie Show, amid the worship of the crowd, the intoxication of the night, the sad clown eyes betray a profound truth about my sister. Like me, somewhere deep inside—because we lost our mother when we were so young—no matter how far Madonna climbs, how famous she becomes, how wealthy, and how loved, her soul will always be pervaded by a secret sadness. Just listen to some of the lyrics she has written during her twenty-five-year career, for such songs as “Oh Father” and “Live to Tell,” to name a few.

- pp. 31-32: When our father marries our nanny Joan instead, the Fortins are incensed and forever after refer to her as the Maid. I prefer to think of Joan as the Sergeant Major, because as soon as she marries our father, she sets about organizing his unruly children according to a timetable, rules, and regulations. Rather like a five-star general. Ironically, although Madonna won’t like the comparison, as she has grown older, the one person in our family whom she most resembles is Joan. Much as hearing this will drive her crazy, in recent years she has become more and more like Joan, insisting that everything has to be done her way, according to her timetable, and that life must be lived by her rules.
Whenever Madonna and I live together for any period of time, I am automatically subject to her stringent set of rules, which include banning me from smoking in the house, and her insistence on maintaining perfect tidiness. Sometimes, her decree that I stick to her rules leads to a battle of wills between us. The truth is that I sometimes feel the need to assert myself and rebel against the hold she has over me. Moreover, I am not fond of rules, and often tire of obeying the ones Madonna sets so stringently. I know that I’m being the little brother, kicking against my big sister’s rules and regulations, but I can’t help it.

- pp. 55-56: . . . Madonna has left Ann Arbor without graduating and moved to Manhattan. Later, she will claim of that first trip, “I came here with thirty-five dollars in my pocket. It was the bravest thing I’d ever done.”
She was, indeed, brave in not graduating, and in defying our father, who was horrified that the first of his children to get into college was now dropping out. I remember that even I thought that what she was doing was extreme.
But as for arriving in Manhattan with just $35 and ending up in Times Square because she didn’t have anywhere else to go—that’s pure mythology. First of all, she was a middle-class girl with plenty of contacts in Manhattan—other dancers, other instructors—and far from being this lost, friendless little waif who didn’t even have a crust of dry bread to eat, she had money in her pocket and a support system all in place.
She may have spent a night sleeping at the Music Building, but that was likely because she was hoping a producer or musician might come by and discover her. Mythology. The further she got into it, the more mythological the story of her first trip to Manhattan became. Shades of Anais Nin—the author who was also mistress of embellishing her own biography.
I know, though, that even with far more than $35 in her pocket, and a group of friends, those first few months after moving to the Big Apple couldn’t have been altogether easy for Madonna.

- p. 70: . . . Madonna and I start hanging out more. Unlike many of my friends, she never drinks late into the night. In fact, she doesn’t drink at all, except for the odd lemon drop—her favourite drink. And her relationship with Basquiat is short-lived because she loathes his drug habits and its attendant behaviors. Like me, Madonna abhors tardiness or unreliability. To this day, we are both punctual and endeavor always to keep our word.

- p. 105: These are some of her mythmaking phrases: “I was the oldest girl so I had a lot of adult responsibilities. I feel like all my adolescence was spent taking care of babies and changing diapers and babysitting. I have to say I resented it, because when all my friends were out playing, I felt like I had all these adult responsibilities. . . . I really saw myself as the quintessential Cinderella. You know, I have this stepmother and I have all this work to do and it’s awful and I never go out and I don’t have pretty dresses.”

- pp. 179-180: The title, Truth or Dare, is a grave misnomer, because anyone seeking the truth about the real person behind my sister’s artfully constructed facade won’t find it in this “documentary”, except in the Marine Stadium scene and in a second authentic Madonna moment, which comes when she is having breakfast with Sandra Bernhard. Dressed in a silk kimono, she is relaxed and natural. Sandra asks here about her childhood after our mother died, and Madonna tells her how—for five years after our mother’s death—she used to have nightmares that someone was strangling her, broke out in sweats, and fled to our father’s bed for comfort. Sandra asks how she slept in her father’s bed, and Madonna cracks, “Fine. I went right to sleep after he fucked me.” Then she laughs at her own “joke” and adds, “No, I’m just kidding.”
The scene perfectly illustrates Madonna in one of her more aberrational moments when—in her head—she is so above everything and everyone that she thinks she can say whatever she wants.

- pp. 187-188: I fight my urge to rip the camera out of the cameraman’s hands and smash it over Madonna’s head.
Then her performance—which in the completed movie unfolds with the sound track of the song “Promise to Try,” which she cowrote, playing over it, as well as a montage of Madonna on the tour—begins.
I lean against a nearby tree, white with rage, and observe my sister’s on-camera shenanigans.
For a while, she wanders around the cemetery, recreating our search for the grave. She places a bunch of flowers on our mother’s gravestone, kneels, and kisses it.
In a voice-over that she recorded afterward, but made sure not to let me know about, she recites, “I hadn’t been to the cemetery since I was a young girl. I used to go after she died. My mother’s death was a whole big mystery to me when I was a child; no one really explained it.
“What I remember most about my mother is that she was very kind and very gentle and very feminine. I mean, I don’t know, I guess she just looked like an angel to me, but I suppose everybody thinks their mother is an angel when they are five. I also know she was really religious.
“So I never really understood why she was taken away from us; it seemed so unfair. I never thought that she had done something wrong, so oftentimes I thought it was what I had done wrong.”
Then, in probably the worst moment of all for me, she muses, “I wonder what she looks like now? Just a bunch of dust.”
More theatrics ensue as she lies down next to our mother’s grave.
“I am going to get in right here, they are going to bury me side-ways,” she declares.

- pp. 197-198: For more than fifteen years, Ingrid will endure in Madonna’s life, as Ingrid doesn’t need Madonna for money, keeps her mouth shut, and adores her without question or limitations. It wouldn’t have surprised me at all if my sister and Ingrid were having intimate relations. But Madonna never confirms or denies it.

- p. 208: She sends me a letter in which she writes, “I don’t know how long I can live in this culturally bankrupt town [Los Angeles] . . .”

- p. 248: Big Sister is watching you.
Adapted from 1984 by George Orwell

- p. 256: Courtney Love is also there, but Madonna avoids talking to her because she thinks Courtney is crazy. Courtney and I have a moment’s conversation in which she says, “I see Madonna and me as Joan Crawford and Bette Davis, but I can’t work out who is who.”
I smile and shrug.

- p. 326: I . . . view the DVD: I’m Going to Tell You a Secret. The show opens with “Vogue,” distant and cold, which sets the note for the rest of the show. Throughout, she attempts to force-feed the audience. The show is confrontational, unsubtle, angry.

[Beautiful sky]

SEE

[redbaron]

classic SLE--doesn't drink too much because she doesn't like that feeling of being out of control. also that joke about her father fucking her seems pretty Fi-polr. LOL She is so so beautiful in that color photo in the middle that agape posted. stunning.

[inconnu]

beta, not a gamma, SLE...

[Nowisthetime]

She performed in Finland last Sunday. I was outside the arena and heard her. I heard her sing Papa don't preach and Express yourself. Now when I've "met" her I can type her correctly, LOL!

Madonna: Ti-ESTp (Normalizing subtype) [SLE-Fi] (ESTp-INFj)

She is SLE but I don't understand how you can type her normalizing?? Performers and artists are almost always anything but normalizing. When I hear N-SLE I think of a guy in an office, or car sales person. Madonna is probably harmonizing.

[HERO]

I guess Harmonizing makes more sense. The main reason I thought Normalizing is how she's described by her brother (etc.) -- kind of like a strong rational subtype: scheduling, organized, etc. I think Socionics tends to transcend these kind of MBTI stereotypes though. There are Se-ESTp's who were quite shy, quiet, and/or vulnerable (especially when younger or as children). So I guess that doesn't mean the person has an Introverted subtype, nor does an SLE-Ti who is (somewhat) organized, disciplined, etc. have to have a rational/judging subtype.

- One of the Madonna songs my Mom and I like most -- "Gone":



"Selling out is not my thing/Walk away/I won't be broken again/I'm not, I'm not what you think . . . . Letting go is not my thing/Walk away/Won't let it happen again/I'm not, I'm not very smart . . . . Turn to stone/Lose my faith/I'll be gone before it happens . . . ."

[yeves]

I guess Harmonizing makes more sense. The main reason I thought Normalizing is how she's described by her brother (etc.) -- kind of like a strong rational subtype: scheduling, organized, etc.

what about Creative or Dominant subtype? Harmonizing isn't much like her ...

[Amber]

I'm inclined to agree with the Ti-ESTp typing of her.

Madonna: Ti-ESTp (Normalizing subtype) [SLE-Fi] (ESTp-INFj)

.

wtf is that.

I can't believe some ppl are discussing celebrities at the level of DCNH subtypes (which are pretty loose as a theory anyway). I mean, you're now 99% sure of famous people's types and you have to go more in-depth.

anyway she's SLE-Ti E3w4 sp/so.