We exist.
End.
ISFp Enneagram Type 4s
We exist.
End.
Bullshit you exist. Why do you think you are a Four you narcissistic little love child? Because you're creative? Because you're emotionally expressive? You think you're a Four? YOU CAN'T HANDLE A FOUR!!! RAWRADM<GNKJASDBG..0-i,]1jm3k[#1Km168p1y2h5ns|ddOriginally Posted by theMime.
lol.
On a serious note...if you guys really wanted me to explain why I'm a four I suppose I could.
Last edited by theMime.; 05-03-2008 at 05:54 PM.
I think it's quite clear that you're a four. And 4 is not uncommon for ISFp's.
4w3-5w6-8w7
I don't think I've ever come across an IEI who was a 6 or 9.
and Nick, you don't seem like an ESFj.
4w3-5w6-8w7
but I thought ... I thought ...
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
Two out of four posters on this thread to date are ISFp enneagram 4s.
This suggests that ISFp 4's are more common than ESIs.
You can be unique by creating a hat shaped like a football with a penlight stuck inside that shines a red dot on whoever you're looking at...
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
I want little spotlights put into my eyeballs so that everywhere I can look I can see. I also want irises that change color depending on what mood I'm in... that would be soooo cool.
i have those...my irises are red right now.
SEI +-- is the most frequent.
Then, SEI ---. Likely second or third most frequent. Not rare, then.
It's pretty much like comparing LII 00- to LII 0+-.
Phytypes. They're connected to Enneagram types.
Machintruc's explanation of phitypes
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
I can never figure this whole thing out. Mostly I don't think it interests me. I think I tested once and got 9?
Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .
That's apparently the most common E-type for SEIs. It makes you an S+D-... friendly and lazy.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
You guys are a bit too rare however.
D-SEI9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
you're rare.
how many SEI males are out there?
funny. 2 SEI E4s on this forum and 2 SEI males.
This forum is full of rarities.
hey, im SEI too.
but you're normal
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
hahahaha.
omgsh chopin that was perfect.
oh yeah!
Ok AT LEAST 3 SEI males.
Where's Phaedrus ?
I am here. I am actually never anywhere else than exactly here. I cannot be in two places at the same time, and I am certainly not there -- especially not when I am in fact right here where I am right now.
Nope!! I got it totally wrong! Here are my test results from the last time I did it (quite recent)
Test result: Type 3, Variant is sexual sx/so/sp
Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .
Where's Phaedrus?
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
Are SEIs even supposed to be able to get a 3 with sexual variant sx/so/sp???! What does that even mean?!?! No doubting my SEI-ness, I know I'm SEI, but what about the rest of it? Night Kam, btw.
Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .
That's... 0++, very rare for SEIs. But I think Enneagram types vary more with experiences than sociotypes do. Doesn't the main Enneagram type say that E-types have to be able to change?
So it's impossible to have a direct E-type/Sociotype connection, because that would require Sociotypes changing.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
oh fuck... logic
RUN!
All ISFp are type 9. End of discussion.
D-SEI
This is me and my dual being scientific together
This is a truly pointless opinion. It is backed by nothing concrete enough to say. But...
1. I don't see why SEI can't be 4.
2. I don't see why if you identify with 4w3 more than the rest why you can't be 4w3.
3. I don't think the 4 is a "special" type anyway, however flowery-like the descriptions are worded. I think people go overboard on making the descriptions flowery and "special." But the 4 itself is just having an insecure identity crisis.. constantly. Lol.
4. You put things in a very crisp articulate, expressive way that actually reminds me of Aka-kitsune somewhat... this is probably totally irrelevant but the two people on the forum I thought the 4 description that RedBaron posted in that other thread reminded me the most of were Aka-kitsune and you. For some reason that description seemed quite
5. I thought the 3 was concerned with seeking validation, being appreciated, being seen as useful and having a worth by others, etc. If that is so you could definitely have a 3 wing IMO.
6. I agreed with Esper's post that the central issue of the 4 is that of building an identity. SEI and IEI might reflect the 4-ness differently, but that is all. Frankly, I don't see any reason to say any type *can't* be a certain enneatype (even though it will be quite rare in some cases). For instance, could an SLE be a 4? Or an SLI (um...)? Why not? Okay I'm having a really hard time seeing SLI-4... but still, why not? Maybe there's one on earth, somewhere, sitting on a mountain with his pit bull crying into his beer.
7. I know nothing about type 7.
Ok, Phaedrus.
Right, let me explain my rational, once and for all. I've explained it briefly before, but I'm really going to plough through why a Four cannot be an SEI.
First of all, I advise every one of you "SEI Fours" to read a) any lengthy chapter on the Four in any book. Not website, book. Pay for the information, goddamnit, or cease from labelling yourself pitifully like this. Secondly, read every description of Si leading you can possibly find. Then do the same for Ni. The more intelligent of those among you will start to notice something. That Fours, by virtue of their nature, use Ni. This personal self-expression; this searching for a clear identity through usage of insights and visions is about as evident in the SEI as it is that ****** was telling the truth when he said he transported all the Jews to the east. SEIs belong to Alpha; they enjoy good food, music and good times. They like to relax in the moment. Fours are forever wallowing in their own self, be it good or bad; they couldn't give ten shits about the moment being now. Their mind is forever locked into the future; I guarentee you that every Four you meet will be like this, or they won't be a Four.
dolphin may well be a Four. I'm explaining how she cannot be a Four and an SEI. And because I think she's most likely an SEI, I will never think she's a Four until I give up the idea that she's an SEI. But she may well be a Four and not an SEI; it's simply that I have more arguments for SEI than for Four.2. I don't see why if you identify with 4w3 more than the rest why you can't be 4w3.
Fair game.3. I don't think the 4 is a "special" type anyway, however flowery-like the descriptions are worded. I think people go overboard on making the descriptions flowery and "special." But the 4 itself is just having an insecure identity crisis.. constantly. Lol.
dolphin doesn't carry the same insight that they do.4. You put things in a very crisp articulate, expressive way that actually reminds me of Aka-kitsune somewhat... this is probably totally irrelevant but the two people on the forum I thought the 4 description that RedBaron posted in that other thread reminded me the most of were Aka-kitsune and you. For some reason that description seemed quite
The 4w3 is a Four with a Three wing, not a Three.5. I thought the 3 was concerned with seeking validation, being appreciated, being seen as useful and having a worth by others, etc. If that is so you could definitely have a 3 wing IMO.
I'm not sure even theoretically could it happen, and I bet no one in life who is correctly typed could be an SLE and a Four.6. I agreed with Esper's post that the central issue of the 4 is that of building an identity. SEI and IEI might reflect the 4-ness differently, but that is all. Frankly, I don't see any reason to say any type *can't* be a certain enneatype (even though it will be quite rare in some cases). For instance, could an SLE be a 4? Or an SLI (um...)? Why not? Okay I'm having a really hard time seeing SLI-4... but still, why not? Maybe there's one on earth, somewhere, sitting on a mountain with his pit bull crying into his beer.
paying for information goes against God. you should dl the ebooks off of bittorrent instead.
4w7
Very true. I didn't even think of library.
I apologise profoundly. I can see how this would be highly insulting to you.I'm not sure why reading all the inner type motivations, all the descriptions, and finding the best fit, which, incidentally, a 4, is "labeling myself pitifully". I'm not sure whether talking with Esper, a quite knowledgeable and charming enneagram saavy person, and identifying with her on many 4 motivations, constitutes as "labeling myself pitifully". Actually, I find it a boon to my continual self discovery process.
You're absolutely correct.Why do you think that just because you've read the book, you're some sort of expert who can judge other people's type? I have read the book also, does that make me able to go around arbitrarily smacking judgements on people that reek of the superficial, the external? It clearly states in the enneagram book written by Palmer that typing other people is often challenging and unreliable.
And because I'm not close to you, you won't share your thoughts and feelings with me, because they are yours to share with those who care about and respect you. And why shouldn't you?To be honest, I'm not really surprised at that. What SEI-4 would ever share their insights with you? You are too entrenched in your idealized version of a "insightful, visionistic 4" - any insight they might have would be quickly ridiculed. You are forgetting that 4s focus inward to maintain a sense of personal identity. Inward. What part of "inward" don't you understand? My insights, my thoughts, my feelings, my true desires - they are sacred ground. Not to be taken lightly. Not to be scrutinized by others at their will.
Thanks.But I must say, managing to utter "SEI" and "******" in the same sentence was a nice touch. What a clever bastard you are, Ezra.I didn't even notice that.
I have far less of an idea than you, as a member, do. However, I'm not sure it's far to say that I have no idea what they're like. I've got quite a clear picture in my mind of an Alpha atmosphere, but you've shown that Alphas alone are actually quite formidable people when they want to be. I never for one doubted the intelligence of an Alpha; it's simply that, collectively, their style was far from my own. And while it was in their best intentions, groups of Alphas who have attempted to include me in some way and then proceed to call me "boring" or "no fun" when I don't have just annoyed me, and have caused me to come up with conclusions which can actually insult people who don't do this. And I'm sure there are Alphas who are serious, just like there are Betas who don't like loud, noisy clubs, Gammas who aren't businessmen, or Deltas who don't like fixing the roof, chopping the firewood and knitting.Ahh, I see. This is where the hangup is. I'm not even sure where to begin. I will say that
a) Good food does not equal Alpha, and vice versa.
b) Music does not equal Alpha, and vice versa.
c) Good times does not equal Alpha, and vice versa.
I'm not quite sure why you think you can even begin to comprehend Alpha quadra. You obvious have no idea what they're like, what they think, the scope of their intelligence, or what they stand for.
You're right. Using the word "guarentee" implies that what I say is certainly the case, when in fact, it isn't. It makes me look pigheaded and unwilling to consider other possibilities, of which there are obviously many. While there's no point debating points like "SLE = sensing logical extrotim", SLE Fours - while not particularly interesting to me - merit discussion for sure. After all, everything should be questioned.By using the word "guarentee" you set yourself up for a logical disaster. You set yourself up as an unquestionable authority on the enneagram and 4s in particular, when in fact you are not. You are simply a person who is trying his best to understand things, just like everyone else.
I admit, it's a major flaw of mine. It discourages people from associating myself with them; I become more repulsive to them.If you were a person in real life I would get a feeling of dismissal - the feeling of "What is the point of arguing with this person? He's obviously close minded, unwilling to admit to the intricacies of a subject and the opposition of his opponent's side. He is unwilling to be open to new information and fit it into his sphere of knowledge." Reasoning or arguing with a person like that can be a very useless, degrading, and frustrating experience.
Okay, fair point. However, I disagree that socionics explains "why" to the extent that, say, the Enneagram does. Essentially, if we were to ask, "why is that person so good at winning verbal arguments?" we could come up with something like "because he is Se ego and so knows how good his opponent is at it in relation to himself" or "because she has strong Ti so she is logical and consistent" or even "he is Ne valuing - he is willing to consider the possibilities". However, the Enneagram goes deeper than this. It explains why we are the way we are. Socionics doesn't tell us why we have Ni as a fifth function, or Fe as a third function, or Si as a base function. The only answers it could give us would be along the lines of "Ni is a fifth function because Ni is a fifth function" which is useless. The Enneagram will explain our behaviours and patterns in an accessible, insightful way. So, "why do some of us value what socionists will often call Introverted Intuition? Well, because..." - you get the idea.It is the definition of SEI you're tripping up on here. All Socionics types are people, Goddammit. Socionics deals with the whys and wherefores, not stupid external shit like music and food. Regardless, if you are willing to label a person as SEI - and therefore they are brainless harmless goons that make jokes and are not able to think of the future - I think the whole point of Socionics is quite lost on you.
You didn't it was an assumption. Fours think they're special (feel free to debate not with me but with R&H or Palmer; they mentioned it, not me; I'm merely using what they say), and since you believe you're a Four, you must think you're special. In case you're sceptical, here's the logical format.By the way, when did I say I thought I was "special"?
P1. Fours think they're special.
P2. dolphin thinks she's a Four.
C. Therefore dolpin thinks she's special.
The only way you can attack that is via the first premise. Feel free to do so.
I agree that there is no point arguing with people like this.I like to employ the "live and let live" ideal most of the time, actually. I realize that most of my arguments will fall on deaf ears and I will lose much time and energy debating things that won't matter in the future. But occasionally I am angered and disgusted by a person who not only believes they are God, but in fact contrives to force that ideal on others in such a closeminded, arrogant manner - so angry and disgusted that I am compelled to speak out.
I've read that before, and because I've read nothing contrary to it, I agree with it. However, I debate the meaning of "mixed types". Are you referring to a type that is actually a mixture e.g. a 4w3 = a type which is a mix of a Four and a Three, or simply that a 4w3 = a Four who shows characteristics of a Three?I believe she was referring to the fact that all enneagrams are a mixed type - one of their corresponding types - that is, a mix of the type on either side. For example, 4w3 and 4w5 are different. So, it would be perfectly reasonable for Loki to state that a 4 with a 3 wing would have some 3 motivations.
[...]
Did you get that?
This is very effluent writing, dolphin. I commend you for it.I have had the great fortune to have met only a limited share of such shockingly closeminded individuals. And I would not be so biased, or so jaded as to dismiss a ton of people on the grounds of the pigheadness of one individual. I might for an instant succumb to that sorry stereotype in my anger and emotionality - but fortunately my intelligence, reasonableness, common sense, and sense of irony would prevail.
I think dolphin is ISFp-Fe 4w3. From my experience ISFp-Fe can be a 4 but ISFp-Si always seems to be a 9.
The thing with identifying someone as a 4 is that it's kind of difficult on a forum like this. Ezra I think you're operating on insufficient data. Dolphin has had certain posts in certain threads that ring of a 4 very loudly, especially to other 4s.
Furthermore 4s are heavily defined by their emotionality, and this is something that logical types are quite frankly less adept at observing. Like many times when I read someone's post I get a hint of their emotional state that's difficult to describe but I know it's there. Dolphin's posts resemble the posts of other 4s here in this manner. It's part of why she was at first mistaken for an INFp. In threads we've both posted in on the forum I've always got the impression that she understands where I'm coming from and vice-versa, whereas with with other ISFps, particularly ISFp-Si 9s, there's a stumbling block preventing us from understanding each other. So we'll disagree on something, simply due to semantics, when in reality we actually agree.
FWIW, I don't agree.
You don't really have the frenetic mental energy that I associate with 7w6. Your expressions, thoughts, are much more grounded. Liquid, perhaps, not always airy. I tend to associate elements with types: 8s are earthy/firey, 7s airy, 4s watery/airy, 9s watery, etc. Your energy is more solid than vaporous, although I do occasionally see the glimmer of your mischievous side. You're creative in your expression in the way that I do actually associate with 4w3.
In fact, your recent Teddy Roosevelt stint struck me as so much like a 4w3 I used to be acquainted with during my EIDB days. He was so wildly creative and his personal expression was foremost in his arsenal of talents. His "persona" was endlessly refined, he seemed to flit from world to world of suffuse imaginings and effortlessly produce extravagant musings for the entertainment of others. 4w3s are airier than 4w5s, by far. Yet all kinds of 4s may be struck suddenly by creative impulse. However, 4w5s have more difficulty sustaining their creativity, as it tends to get bogged down in mental- type ruminations. 4w3s ruminate, but their energy is never as heavy as the w5. 4w3s can often seem 7w6, because they are more often vacillating from manic pole to depressive pole and can resemble the scattered kind of impulsiveness that characterizes the 7w6. They usually get along well with 7s, btw, and often have a few 7 friends that they tend to admire (and envy) for the fabulous breezy natures that they (the 4w3s themselves) aspire to cultivate. Although, Fours will be Fours and tend toward too much self-consciousness and introspection to really be 7s.
That 4w3 guy was also so/sx and INFJ (in MB). Don't know if his socionics type would correspond to INFj, tho...
I suppose you could also be a 9w1... have you taken the eclecticenergies test? What do your results from that look like?
socio: INFp - IEI
ennea: 4w5 sp/sx
**********
E-type is illogical and of little value to begin with. It is better to ignore it so it does not confuse you.
Reply With Quote
