ISFp Enneagram Type 4s

[Mediator Kam]

-fail alert woo woo woo

[Rubicon]

That's debatable, but it is a question of trivial importance in relation to the big issue here, which is that people (you included) keep spreading bullshit about the types. It is important, IMO, not to make obviously false statements about the types (the Enneatypes included), and this thread is so full of them that it stinks.

Be a bit objective here Phaedrus. The statements are only obviously false to you cause you're the only one who knows what's true and what isn't. We can't see things from an omnipotent point of view like you can. But we're sincere - you have to give us that. Show some mercy to us and help us understand. That's all we ask. HELP US UNDERSTAND.

You could seriously think about what I have said.

I tried to, but I ended up laughing. What can I say. I'm incorrigible.

[theMime.]

Phaedrus just post a link to a thread where you explain why SEIs can't be anything other than nines and then just go take a break from the forum and go do something fun or relaxing.

[Khola aka Bee]

like 'bate some?

[Mediator Kam]

yeah right he's got hoez for that.

[Nick]

?

[theMime.]

?

You're not Bee's Nick are you?
EDIT: Nevermind, I just read your sig.
Welcome to the forum Nick! =)

[Phaedrus]

Be a bit objective here Phaedrus. The statements are only obviously false to you cause you're the only one who knows what's true and what isn't.

What you don't seem to realize is that it's the exact same situation for all of us. Every time you claim that I am not objective, every time when you express a different opinion, you are also making a claim to be in possession of the (objective) truth. There are no "subjective" truths, because that is a contradiction in terms. You have a certain belief, and you believe that your belief is objectively true. There is no difference between me and you in that respect. If you disagree with me, you believe that you are right and I am wrong. This is trivial and really very simple.

We can't see things from an omnipotent point of view like you can.

We both see things from our own subjective perspective, and we both believe that our own point of view is objectively true and/or correct. That's why it's even possible for us to disagree. If you didn't believe that your view was right or true, no one would have any reason to listen to what you say, because then you would only be making meningless sounds or printing meaningless letters on your computer. Every time you say that I am wrong, you are making a statement that is objectively true or false. You insist on being right just as much as I do.

But we're sincere - you have to give us that. Show some mercy to us and help us understand. That's all we ask. HELP US UNDERSTAND.

I am perfectly willing to help you to understand, but then you simply must stop believing that you are right. You must be willing to change your mind, you must be willing to seriously consider the possibility that you are objectively wrong about some things.

I tried to, but I ended up laughing. What can I say. I'm incorrigible.

That is the opposite of taking these things seriously, and I hope that you are not so stuck on that attitude that you refuse to take reason.

[Khola aka Bee]

Ok, I admit, it was me. I just wanted to glean more attention for him. LOVE HIM!!!

plskthnxbai

<3

[Ezra]

We exist.

End.

Bullshit you exist. Why do you think you are a Four you narcissistic little love child? Because you're creative? Because you're emotionally expressive? You think you're a Four? YOU CAN'T HANDLE A FOUR!!! RAWRADM<GNKJASDBG..0-i,]1jm3k[#1Km168p1y2h5ns|dd

[theMime.]

Bullshit you exist. Why do you think you are a Four you narcissistic little love child? Because you're creative? Because you're emotionally expressive? You think you're a Four? YOU CAN'T HANDLE A FOUR!!! RAWRADM<GNKJASDBG..0-i,]1jm3k[#1Km168p1y2h5ns|dd

lol.

[theMime.]

On a serious note...if you guys really wanted me to explain why I'm a four I suppose I could.

[strrrng]

I think it's quite clear that you're a four. And 4 is not uncommon for ISFp's.

[strrrng]

Certain types, IEIs for instance, are likely to be 4/6/9, so the ability to be E4 or E9 for one Socionics type is nothing new. SEIs could easily be 4/9, possibly even 2 or other E types.

I don't think I've ever come across an IEI who was a 6 or 9.

and Nick, you don't seem like an ESFj.

[theMime.]

I don't think I've ever come across an IEI who was a 6 or 9.

and Nick, you don't seem like an ESFj.

I came across an IEI 9 on the net.

[strrrng]

I came across an IEI 9 on the net.

yeah, I don't think it's impossible - just improbable

[machintruc]

yeah, I don't think it's impossible - just improbable

Lots of IEI's are Nines. For example, Gandhi is IEI-9. Pat Metheny is IEI-9 too.

[Ezra]

On a serious note...if you guys really wanted me to explain why I'm a four I suppose I could.

Yes please.

I think it's quite clear that you're a four.

I think it's not clear that you're a Four.

[strrrng]

I think it's not clear that you're a Four.

why is that?

[Khola aka Bee]

What the hell am I then?

[theMime.]

What the hell am I then?

7?
3?
9?
2?

[Rubicon]

What you don't seem to realize is that it's the exact same situation for all of us. Every time you claim that I am not objective, every time when you express a different opinion, you are also making a claim to be in possession of the (objective) truth. There are no "subjective" truths, because that is a contradiction in terms. You have a certain belief, and you believe that your belief is objectively true. There is no difference between me and you in that respect. If you disagree with me, you believe that you are right and I am wrong. This is trivial and really very simple. We both see things from our own subjective perspective, and we both believe that our own point of view is objectively true and/or correct. That's why it's even possible for us to disagree. If you didn't believe that your view was right or true, no one would have any reason to listen to what you say, because then you would only be making meningless sounds or printing meaningless letters on your computer. Every time you say that I am wrong, you are making a statement that is objectively true or false. You insist on being right just as much as I do.

If you think yourself to be right, and think that everyone else who presents their opinion thinks that they’re right, then it must occur to you that there is a possibility that you may in fact be the one who’s wrong, regardless of how right you think you are.

I am perfectly willing to help you to understand, but then you simply must stop believing that you are right. You must be willing to change your mind, you must be willing to seriously consider the possibility that you are objectively wrong about some things.

You should take your own advice. It frequently occurs to me that I’m wrong. In fact, it’s harder for me to take a firm stance on something than the other way around, because I naturally see possibilities more than I do errors. Often, I act the devil’s advocate so as to force the other person to elaborate as to why they think what they do. Because that’s of paramount importance to me – knowing why. Otherwise, what’s the information worth? How do I know it to be true? It would be just like chinese whispers - passing information on from one person to another mindlessly without stopping to check whether it's even intelligible. I like to know what the mental processes are behind your theories so I can make up my own mind as to whether it makes sense or not. You may think that’s arrogant – I think that’s common intelligence.

[Khola aka Bee]

7?
3?
9?
2?

42!!!

[theMime.]

42!!!

hahaha.

[misutii]

What the hell am I then?

in all honesty I don't even think you're SEI, for some reason I consistently think I see Ne in your posts, have you considered the possibility of IEE (ENFp)?

[Mediator Kam]

she has, but she decided to switch to SEI cuz it "fit better'.

[Phaedrus]

If you think yourself to be right, and think that everyone else who presents their opinion thinks that they’re right, then it must occur to you that there is a possibility that you may in fact be the one who’s wrong, regardless of how right you think you are.

Of course. That is logically implied in what I said. It's logically possible that I am wrong, and it is logically possible that you are wrong -- but if we contradict each other, only one of us can be right. I believe that I am right and that you are wrong, whereas you believe that I am wrong and that you are right. As I said, there is no difference between us in that respect.

It frequently occurs to me that I’m wrong. In fact, it’s harder for me to take a firm stance on something than the other way around, because I naturally see possibilities more than I do errors.

Yes, and it is also a function of how much knowledge you have.

Often, I act the devil’s advocate so as to force the other person to elaborate as to why they think what they do. Because that’s of paramount importance to me – knowing why.

If you want to know why I think the way I do, a better method is to ask specific questions (preferably questions that can be answered with a simple "yes" or "no" in order to keep a straight focus on an exactly demarcated problem). If you are acting the devil's advocate, there's a slight risk that I will not take you seriously or even loose some of my respect for your intelligence.

Otherwise, what’s the information worth? How do I know it to be true?

By deep and long study, by seeking lots and lots of information and critically examining it. By using your intellect.

I like to know what the mental processes are behind your theories so I can make up my own mind as to whether it makes sense or not. You may think that’s arrogant – I think that’s common intelligence.

It is also a sign of intellectual laziness. You don't seek knowledge for yourself. You are uncritical toward your own beliefs. You don't critically examine the evidence. You are primarily a believer, not a knowledge seeker.

[Rubicon]

Of course. That is logically implied in what I said. It's logically possible that I am wrong, and it is logically possible that you are wrong -- but if we contradict each other, only one of us can be right. I believe that I am right and that you are wrong, whereas you believe that I am wrong and that you are right. As I said, there is no difference between us in that respect.

Well - then it baffles me how you can come out with such black and white statements as "You are a liar" if there is the possibility that you could be wrong. Wouldn't you feel like a jackass if you found that to be the case?

If you want to know why I think the way I do, a better method is to ask specific questions (preferably questions that can be answered with a simple "yes" or "no" in order to keep a straight focus on an exactly demarcated problem).

Your 'simple' yeses and nos drive me crazy!

If you are acting the devil's advocate, there's a slight risk that I will not take you seriously or even loose some of my respect for your intelligence.

Lol. That's a risk I'm willing to take.

By deep and long study, by seeking lots and lots of information and critically examining it. By using your intellect.

Sometimes there's a shorter way of going about things that achieves just as good results.

It is also a sign of intellectual laziness.

Yeah - you're probably right.

You don't seek knowledge for yourself. You are uncritical toward your own beliefs. You don't critically examine the evidence. You are primarily a believer, not a knowledge seeker.

I am critical of my own beliefs. I don't accept things for the sake of it - I question everything I hear. It may take me a while to get around to studying up on something, but until then - my stance remains ambiguous. And I'm not going to critically examine everything that happens across my path. I have better things to do with my time.

[Phaedrus]

Well - then it baffles me how you can come out with such black and white statements as "You are a liar" if there is the possibility that you could be wrong. Wouldn't you feel like a jackass if you found that to be the case?

Some of my beliefs represent knowledge, and that's the case here.

Your 'simple' yeses and nos drive me crazy!

They shouldn't. It means that you are not capable of thinking exactly and correctly. Your mind is muddled by illogical thinking processes and irrational feelings.

Sometimes there's a shorter way of going about things that achieves just as good results.

Maybe. But such a route does not exist for you. Your intellectual laziness and limited capacity for correct logical thinking prevent you from knowing the truth.

I am critical of my own beliefs. I don't accept things for the sake of it - I question everything I hear. It may take me a while to get around to studying up on something, but until then - my stance remains ambiguous. And I'm not going to critically examine everything that happens across my path. I have better things to do with my time.

You're proving my point.

[Rubicon]

They shouldn't.

What does that even mean? "They shouldn't." The fact is they do!! Haven't you learned anything from your extensive study of socionics? If you don't apply it in your life, what good is it? Your 'knowledge' is simple rotting in your head if you do nothing with it. You are so arrogant! Tell me why I should modify my reactions to suit you when you don't make the slightest effort to do so yourself! Do you possess the ultimate personality type? You should create a new model with yourself in the centre and a list of all the other types' deficiencies and what steps these types can take to reach your level of perfection.

It means that you are not capable of thinking exactly and correctly. Your mind is muddled by illogical thinking processes and irrational feelings.

You WISH you could feel the way I can. I bow to your intellectual superiority.

You're proving my point.

You and your points can take a flying leap into nothingness for all I care.

[Phaedrus]

What does that even mean? "They shouldn't." The fact is they do!!

It means exactly what I said. The fact that they drive you crazy is a proof that you are unable to think logically correct, which was also what I said. You should not think they way you do, because it is an inferior way of thinking (which also happens to be type related, but that is another matter), and yet you do think that way. Okay, so what? Maybe it's not your fault that you cannot think any other way, maybe it's just a fact of nature, but your way of thinking is objectively inferior anyway.

Haven't you learned anything from your extensive study of socionics? If you don't apply it in your life, what good is it?

I certainly do apply it to my life.

You are so arrogant!

So what? The fact that I might be perceived as arrogant doesn't change the fact that my statements are true.

Tell me why I should modify my reactions to suit you when you don't make the slightest effort to do so yourself!

If you believe that this has something to do with me, you are wrong. You should modify your reactions to suit yourself, because otherwise you will remain ignorant. If that's what you want, then maybe you won't have any reason to change your attitude, but quite frankly I can see much of a virtue in being ignorant.

Do you possess the ultimate personality type?

There is no ultimate personality type. Every type is good at some things and bad at others. I am bad at getting practical things done, I am bad at showing tact and diplomacy, I am bad at small talk, I am bad at planning, etc. But my type is generally better than your type at abstract conceptual thinking, analyzing theories, spotting logical errors, knowing the facts, predicting the future, being objective, etc.

You WISH you could feel the way I can.

Certainly not.

You and your points can take a flying leap into nothingness for all I care.

Proving my point again.

[Rubicon]

It means exactly what I said. The fact that they drive you crazy is a proof that you are unable to think logically correct, which was also what I said. You should not think they way you do, because it is an inferior way of thinking (which also happens to be type related, but that is another matter), and yet you do think that way. Okay, so what? Maybe it's not your fault that you cannot think any other way, maybe it's just a fact of nature, but your way of thinking is objectively inferior anyway.


I certainly do apply it to my life.


So what? The fact that I might be perceived as arrogant doesn't change the fact that my statements are true.


If you believe that this has something to do with me, you are wrong. You should modify your reactions to suit yourself, because otherwise you will remain ignorant. If that's what you want, then maybe you won't have any reason to change your attitude, but quite frankly I can see much of a virtue in being ignorant.


There is no ultimate personality type. Every type is good at some things and bad at others. I am bad at getting practical things done, I am bad at showing tact and diplomacy, I am bad at small talk, I am bad at planning, etc. But my type is generally better than your type at abstract conceptual thinking, analyzing theories, spotting logical errors, knowing the facts, predicting the future, being objective, etc.


Certainly not.


Proving my point again.

Just shut up please.

[Phaedrus]

Just shut up please.

No.

[Ezra]

Phaedrus is an LIE (Locked Into Eternalstruggle)

[misutii]

she has, but she decided to switch to SEI cuz it "fit better'.

haha this is a very Ne thing to do

[Mediator Kam]

I wish you were ILE.

Then i'd be like "You'd be a very Ne thing to do."

[Khola aka Bee]

in all honesty I don't even think you're SEI, for some reason I consistently think I see Ne in your posts, have you considered the possibility of IEE (ENFp)?

Yeah, I went there for a while, but it was all wrong! I belong in Alpha land

Originally I thought I was ENTp, but I'm too irrational for that! Not to mention to arty-farty...

[theMime.]

Phaedrus everything you've said is moot unless you give reasons as to why an SEI can't be a 4. Otherwise it just looks like you're blindly believing something with no evidence.

[theMime.]

. But my type is generally better than your type at abstract conceptual thinking, analyzing theories, spotting logical errors, knowing the facts, predicting the future, being objective,

Ok then use that mind of yours with all those abilities to tell us why an SEI can't be a 4.

[theMime.]

Guys it's very tiring and pointless to argue with Phaedrus. He doesn't listen. Then just to be ornery, he'll make a joke out of nowhere to make you believe he's reasonable. He'll make fun of himself sometimes too, and you'll be lured into a false sense of security. Then when you talk to him and make a passing comment believing he won't react aversely, he'll swing the javel down on your poor face.

IMHO it's not worth it.

Yeah I know.
But I'm still curious as to why he thinks SEIs can't be 4s.