Enneagram type Gilly

[Expat]

Having met both Gilly and Ezra, here are my subjective impressions --

Gilly is more inclined to follow one line of conversation/reasoning for long, while Ezra tends to "derail" them more quickly, or in other words, I guess that I bore Ezra more quickly than I do Gilly.

Paradoxically, or not, Ezra makes more of a "focused" impression than Gilly, that is, Ezra's focus is "jumpy" and the shifts in conversation/attention are more abrupt, while Gilly has a more relaxed attitude, more "fluid".

[Ezra]

Please read my post.

I did. Point?

Having met both Gilly and Ezra, here are my subjective impressions --

Gilly is more inclined to follow one line of conversation/reasoning for long, while Ezra tends to "derail" them more quickly, or in other words, I guess that I bore Ezra more quickly than I do Gilly.

Paradoxically, or not, Ezra makes more of a "focused" impression than Gilly, that is, Ezra's focus is "jumpy" and the shifts in conversation/attention are more abrupt, while Gilly has a more relaxed attitude, more "fluid".

That's very interesting. And it's true as well. To some extent. Socionics interests me, but if we were talking politics, it would interest me far more. This is because when we're talking socionics, I don't see myself as knowledgeable to your standard, so I essentially feel like you're my teacher, and thus it's less of a conversation and more of a lecture. However, because you're not, I don't feel guilty about asking question after question to get the answers I want or feel I need. If we were talking politics, it's purely down to opinion, and thus it would become far more two-way (probably my dominating, actually).

[Gilly]

I did. Point?

My point is that you seem to be a little bit on the defensive about something that is generally true of everyone. Everyone has insecurities, and we all make up for them in some way. The only thing that people are really pointing out by saying that you're narcissistic is that you tend to "compensate" by highlighting your strong personal characteristics, like me.

[FDG]

Everyone has insecurities, and we all make up for them in some way.

While I agree with the first part, I disagree with the second. There's always the option of avoiding the source of our insecurity ex. I know I am not good at something, I try to avoid occasions in which I have to do the given thing I am insecure about.

[Gilly]

I don't just mean insecure as in "things we aren't comfortable doing." What I mean is that everyone has something about themselves that they don't like, ie, we all know we're not perfect, so whether we acknowledge it on a conscious level or not, most of us, if not everyone, makes up for this in some compensatory fashion.

[strrrng]

While I agree with the first part, I disagree with the second. There's always the option of avoiding the source of our insecurity ex. I know I am not good at something, I try to avoid occasions in which I have to do the given thing I am insecure about.

I think it's kind of a law of nature that compensation is an unavoidable result of any deficit. You may not directly go around making up for insecurities, but it comes out some way. And your example isn't accurate because we are not talking about acknowledging weaknesses, but rather, accepting your self-doubts. I suck at drawing, so I don't draw. that's not hard to admit. you're not typically insecure about things you don't value.

[FDG]

I think it's kind of a law of nature that compensation is an unavoidable result of any deficit. You may not directly go around making up for insecurities, but it comes out some way. And your example isn't accurate because we are not talking about acknowledging weaknesses, but rather, accepting your self-doubts. I suck at drawing, so I don't draw. that's not hard to admit. you're not typically insecure about things you don't value.

Ok, but then give me an example of an unavoidable overcompensation?

[Ezra]

My point is that you seem to be a little bit on the defensive about something that is generally true of everyone. Everyone has insecurities, and we all make up for them in some way. The only thing that people are really pointing out by saying that you're narcissistic is that you tend to "compensate" by highlighting your strong personal characteristics, like me.

Okay, well, I did state earlier on that if you and others were referring to insecurities as in that which is evident in everyone, then of course I agree with you. Socionics alone shows that But if you're talking about a case of narcissism, which you see in myself and yourself exclusively, I'd have to disagree, as I don't see this.

[Gilly]

Ok, but then give me an example of an unavoidable overcompensation?

Me having excessive stake in my looks and intellectual capacity.

Ezra highlighting his overconfidence.

You working out obviously well beyond what normal people need to stay healthy and happy.

Joy placing an overt emphasis on her disdain for other people's opinions of her.


Everyone has things about themselves with which they are not necessarily satisfied, and everyone makes up for it by taking something to an "extreme." It's what makes people interesting and different, for fuck's sake; stop disowning it!

[Gilly]

Okay, well, I did state earlier on that if you and others were referring to insecurities as in that which is evident in everyone, then of course I agree with you. Socionics alone shows that But if you're talking about a case of narcissism, which you see in myself and yourself exclusively, I'd have to disagree, as I don't see this.

I'm not saying we're the only ones with unconscious insecurities; I thought I made that clear. Our coping mechanisms are simply labeled as "narcissistic" because they involve placing emphasis on personal characteristics or traits that are typically associated with people who are SERIOUSLY narcissistic (ie, me with my looks and intelligence, you with your confidence and brashness).

[Gilly]

Update: I believe at this point that I am probably ILE 7w6 sx/so Inventive/Idiosyncratic.

[strrrng]

Update: I believe at this point that I am probably ILE 7w6 sx/so Inventive/Idiosyncratic.

don't know or care about that last thing, but I have to say I agree. After the aim convo, I simply cannot see 6.

And Ezra, I believe your insecurities cause your apparent brashness, which is why it rubs me the wrong way, as I have stated before (and potentially why you think you're 8).

Ok, but then give me an example of an unavoidable overcompensation.

I think Gilly kind of covered it, but there are plenty...I went on an obsessive exercise routine following a depressive period to maintain a foothold on the precarious ground I was walking on, so to speak (and, to some degree, to "run away" from the pain).

[FDG]

Me having excessive stake in my looks and intellectual capacity.

Ezra highlighting his overconfidence.

You working out obviously well beyond what normal people need to stay healthy and happy.

Joy placing an overt emphasis on her disdain for other people's opinions of her.


Everyone has things about themselves with which they are not necessarily satisfied, and everyone makes up for it by taking something to an "extreme." It's what makes people interesting and different, for fuck's sake; stop disowning it!

Ahhh okay, I get it now, I can see it

[Gilly]

And Ezra, I believe your insecurities cause your apparent brashness, which is why it rubs me the wrong way, as I have stated before (and potentially why you think you're 8).

I believe that Ezra very well may be a naturally brash person (and possibly an 8 as well), but I think he highlights it as a part of his personality that he adheres to for a kind of security, as I tend to highlight my own insightfulness. He does seem to naturally go against the grain (not unlike myself), but I think he might exaggerate just a tad sometimes, or do it for its own sake, the reason being that he sees it as something that he admires in himself; hence the label "narcissism."

[Ezra]

I'm not saying we're the only ones with unconscious insecurities; I thought I made that clear. Our coping mechanisms are simply labeled as "narcissistic" because they involve placing emphasis on personal characteristics or traits that are typically associated with people who are SERIOUSLY narcissistic (ie, me with my looks and intelligence, you with your confidence and brashness).

What do I over-emphasise?

And Ezra, I believe your insecurities cause your apparent brashness, which is why it rubs me the wrong way, as I have stated before (and potentially why you think you're 8).

I have to disagree with this. My insecurity is in relationships. Nothing else.

I believe that Ezra very well may be a naturally brash person (and possibly an 8 as well), but I think he highlights it as a part of his personality that he adheres to for a kind of security, as I tend to highlight my own insightfulness. He does seem to naturally go against the grain (not unlike myself), but I think he might exaggerate just a tad sometimes, or do it for its own sake, the reason being that he sees it as something that he admires in himself; hence the label "narcissism."

A far more accurate insight than strrrng's.

[strrrng]

it doesn't matter how we phrase it; the fact remains that you're whole direct, aggressive bs is just an act...and your video just proved that

A far more accurate insight than strrrng's.

that's expected, as he knows you much better than I do.

[Ezra]

it doesn't matter how we phrase it; the fact remains that you're whole direct, aggressive bs is just an act...and your video just proved that

So in reality, I'm diplomatic, I beat around the bush, and I'm a sensitive soul; yes? Well, I must be IEI then.

[strrrng]

So in reality, I'm diplomatic, I beat around the bush, and I'm a sensitive soul; yes? Well, I must be IEI then.

no, I think you are none of those things. I think if you acted how you actually are, a certain directness would come out. It's just this whole Se 8w7 sx act that is complete bullshit to me.

[Gilly]

What do I over-emphasise?

Your brashness and tendency to "go against the grain." See the post of mine that you quoted and agreed with.

Strrrng is actually saying basically what I'm saying, only in an accusatory and derogatory manner.

This kind of behavior, which both of us exhibit in some form or another, is, as strrrng actually pointed out to me, typical of people our age. Our personalities are gelling and we are finding our place in the world. Just go with it and try not to push too many people's buttons in the process I recognize that I can be an insufferable know-it-all sometimes, so if I'm aware of it, I can tone myself down when I notice myself being a jackass. Just make a habit of observing yourself and try to be humble.

[strrrng]

Your brashness and tendency to "go against the grain." See the post of mine that you quoted and agreed with.

Strrrng is actually saying basically what I'm saying, only in an accusatory and derogatory manner.

This kind of behavior, which both of us exhibit in some form or another, is, as strrrng actually pointed out to me, typical of people our age. Our personalities are gelling and we are finding our place in the world. Just go with it and try not to push too many people's buttons in the process I recognize that I can be an insufferable know-it-all sometimes, so if I'm aware of it, I can tone myself down when I notice myself being a jackass. Just make a habit of observing yourself and try to be humble.

It's not just about your age; it is more specific to Ezra. And you are nothing like him in that regard. The only way you really annoy people is with your zany arrogance and off-the-wall energy. It has nothing to do with what I see in Ezra.

[Gilly]

Ok, what I'm saying is that I think the compensatory behavior is probably more noticeable in people our age, since we are essentially figuring out who we are in the grand scheme of things.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Gilly]

Sounds about right.

[Gilly]

Yeah, I guess a lot of my anxiety is about so things, but my attitude in general is more sx oriented, I think. I love feeling intensity; I consider myself somewhat addicted to intense emotions of any kind, whether it be happiness, depression, anger, etc.

What matters to me, more than fitting in or finding my niche or whatever, is having a worthwhile life experience, living in the moment and making the best of it, etc. If the choice comes down to having more fun/doing something new and exciting, or finding a stable position in a group/gaining respect or influence, I will always choose the former.

I have a tendency to be self-sacrificing when it comes to my close friends and family, or generally anyone I have feelings for; less so when it comes to a group that I am a part of. And I'm definitely highly concerned with my own attractiveness and that of others.

However, I do not, feel "incomplete" without a relationship. I've only had 2 serious long-term relationships. I can be needy at times, at least when I'm actually in a relationship, but when I'm not, I look at asking others for excessive support or attention as placing a burden on them, and tend to avoid it, sometimes to the point that other people end up having to do more for me as a result of my hesitance to ask in the first place.

I love being on a "team," and I do have a desire to belong. However, my belonging to anything is contingent upon either its tendency to conform to or agree with my ideals, or its potential to bring added intensity or quality of experience to my life.

[Gilly]

Upon further review, you are probably right. As usual. "So" encompasses my greatest areas of both insecurity and strength. "Sx" is something I'm more comfortable with.

My beef with the enneagram is that it's pretty much founded on insecurity/dysfunction.

[Ezra]

no, I think you are none of those things. I think if you acted how you actually are, a certain directness would come out. It's just this whole Se 8w7 sx act that is complete bullshit to me.

Okay. Well, I don't really "try to be Se", honestly. Maybe it's forced, but if it is, it's entirely subconscious, because it kind of annoys me that people around me see me the way I do. Sometimes I like it (e.g. when people talk about my being a soldier), but at other times it really annoys me (like when people shy away from me).

Also, a minor few points.

1. I don't think I'm sexual, I think I'm self-preservationist. Reading the descriptions, it actually fits very well.

2. I also didn't think I was a clear 8w7. I think I have shown Nine wing tendencies in my life, especially recently.

3. If Se looks like an act, how about LIE for me? Surely that would make sense. Think about it. I crave Se, so I act how I think Se looks. Do you agree?

Your brashness and tendency to "go against the grain." See the post of mine that you quoted and agreed with.

It's only recently that I've been emphasising my non-conformity, now you mention it. Why this is the case, I don't know. Maybe it is a counterreaction to a few people's real life perceptions of the passive, neutral nature I have come to despise; the said character become more apparent in me every day.

Strrrng is actually saying basically what I'm saying, only in an accusatory and derogatory manner.

I don't think he's trying to be derogatory, nor do I think it is. Accusatory, perhaps; he seems to think I've mistyped myself badly, and wants me to stop calling myself this.

[strrrng]

3. If Se looks like an act, how about LIE for me? Surely that would make sense. Think about it. I crave Se, so I act how I think Se looks. Do you agree?

This would be the case if you actually craved Se. However, it comes across as more or less something you basically don't truly like/have but try to exude. And I don't think that's a valid argument for ENTj, anyway. There are other factors that would have to be taken into account for your being that type, one of which being skill with Ni (which I don't see).

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Yeah. When I was in group therapy place I was made leader too. I was in many different group homes actually. Bet ya bitches can't beat that.

But honest question, do you feel like your power is innate or deserved, or do you feel like they thought you were being a 'weak druggie' so they felt they made you leader to make you appear strong, like giving a fat, depressed lesbian a clipboard at a prom? I'm just asking. I often ask myself 'why me?' but I feel an urge to lead other people, even though I am nowhere near as extroverted as you are. (If that makes sense) Like I so get that leadership urge that you have. I can relate to that. But maybe we wouldn't get along since we'd both want to be on top so to speak. Who knows.

I was always in charge of a lot of shit at those places (I am a great political leader and diplomat I suppose though I suck at telling other people what to do physically (partly because I don't give a shit about that), I think). People thought I was trustworthy since I didn't act like a typical ghetto thug. I had a certain sense of class about me, or something. But I always felt I was too good to be in rehab, but still too sick to be in the real world. There is different types of leaders, true, but I definitely have that leadership 'spark.' *gets a glazed, heroic look in his eyes as he looks at the big manly sword in the stone forged just for HIM.*

You sound similar to me, although I am just more quiet. And I prefer peace because no matter what I do it's not as intense as people say it is. And I think it's cute when people point out my psychological weaknesses. I'd probably just find you charming and not threatening. When you live in the big D, nothing intimidates you. =p

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

He does seem to naturally go against the grain (not unlike myself), but I think he might exaggerate just a tad sometimes, or do it for its own sake, the reason being that he sees it as something that he admires in himself; hence the label "narcissism."

But it makes him sound that he's actually the opposite. He tries too hard to appear aggressive and dominant but it's in such a cartoony, campy way that I can't take it seriously at all. He doesn't seem to understand that unless you can be subdued and honestly creepy, nobody is gonna buy that manly intimidation BS. And furthermore, why is Ezra so strung up about acting like that anyway? I hate men like that. Why are you so proud of being aggressive anyway? Ugh.

Btw; 'Exaggerate a tad?' You're being too nice. The dude is pure CAMP.

What grain does he go against exactly? He uses the kind of zany, politically incorrect humor that we both do but I can't take anything the guy says seriously. If he told me right now "My mom died" I'd think he was just making a big joke out of something or putting on some show. Youthful bravado isn't the same thing as real manly strength. Why the hell does he think he's this big alpha male? It seems like he's actually very weak and he's trying to cover up something.

PS: I actually *like* Ezra. That's why I'm so critical of him lol.

[Gilly]

You know, there was another guy there who I think some people were trying to make leader to make him feel included or whatever, because he was shy and didn't really participate in the socializing that went on most of the time and he needed to be included. He got a bunch of votes, I guess perhaps for that reason but also because there were some people who, well, I got along with mostly, but probably would have seen me in a leadership position as threatening or an unnecessary ego boost for me or something.

Funny that you say that, though, because that's normally the kind of thing that I'd be really paranoid about, but I didn't think of it at all at the time. I was actively involved with the group socially (a few of the guys really looked up to me), I was all about the program and really knowledgeable about the Big Book and the whole system by the time I was a week into the thing, and I guess I'm just smart and trustworthy and not too much of a jerk for people to mind me telling them what to do.

But yeah, I definitely do have a drive to lead. I feel like I have the ability to lead moderately and keep things in check by being straightforward yet diplomatic instead of just acting like a dick to people and expecting them to just accept me as their Godking because I'm tall and intelligent and beautiful and have the key to the world for which they have been searching for o so long (which, admittedly, I used to do, and I actually count that experience as a blessing because it helps me keep myself in check). I like to include people and I know how to follow rules without being a complete cockshiner for authority.

But lol, this isn't a campaign.

*gets a glazed, heroic look in his eyes as he looks at the big manly sword in the stone forged just for HIM.*

lmao. You so get it. However, these days, this is probably the biggest reason that I need to learn to follow and take orders more effectively. Working at a job where I don't have inherent credibility or natural ability has been a stress for me, and I take this as a sign that it's something I need to work on.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

The program I was in was pretty basic. Basically, guys couldn't talk 'one on one' with each other. (lol) So basically you had to do things 'as a group' and it was very... Orwellian-esque. You just had to say the right things to get the majority of people to like you, or kinda be.... quiet enough where you weren't considered a threat, and you got power that way. It drove me insane because I didn't get any alone time, but at the same time- no real depth was achieved. If you were honest, nobody believed you- you had to be really dramatic and far-fetched or they thought you weren't 'telling them everything.' What a joke.

I could tell you some STORIES man. I don't know where to begin. It was so...interesting. There was this one group leader (the real group leader not the one they appointed as leader), seemed ISFj- she always had this really constipated/cruel look on her face and she hated my guts because I always look kinda dopey/goofy and 'head in the stars.' Yeah, total confliction going on there. Basically it was all up to the REAL group leader on if they liked you or not. That's all that mattered. Most people are sheep and would follow suit depending on what the group leader said. That's why it's so hard to know who was being your real friend so to speak, if they were really looking out for you or just doing it to 'look good for the program.' God it felt like a fucking soap opera at times.

Anyway I was either the alpha male/leader of the pack or COMPLETELY at the bottom. Never in the middle. There was this one guy that was in the middle, and we got along very, very well. Because he was always 'just perfect' for me- not too bossy and not too weak. You know there was always the type of guy that seemed emotionally weak in group and let everything get to him and acted kinda whiny...yeah that wasn't me at all. But it was always the person 'above me' that decided my position, the adult there (I was 17 the last group I was in and still considered a minor). I had to make up problems in group because I really didn't do anything wrong and thought the whole thing was silly- and frequently by judging the system I could control it. They didn't like this at all, and viewed me as this big threat to their little world.

I didn't feel like I had much power in a 'real world system' so when I got there it was pretty rewarding. I always laughed at how flat-out WRONG people were about my intentions, and it always was relieving when I met somebody that actually knew what they were talking about as far as my psychological problems go.

But yeah, I have this extremely strong urge to be PROTECTED actually, not EMPOWERED. I mean being empowered sounds nice and all that, and would make me feel strong and important I suppose, but being protected is just more important to me than having power. However, I still want to lead and be left alone more than not. When you protect me, it shows me that you already understand my innate strength, and you will care for me just being me. But empowering me implies a certain level of condescenion I guess.

Anyway, this thread deserves a +5 for all our narcissistic mental masturbation. Woohoo!

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Btw, just so I don't sound like an ass here- Ezra, I am just honestly curious but can you please tell me what your dad is like, and what your relationship with him is like? I know that question is personal, but I doubt you mind. I gotta see if this hunch I have is a correct one.

(Don't worry I'm not going to go perverted/Freudian with that.) Yet, anyway.

[Ezra]

This would be the case if you actually craved Se. However, it comes across as more or less something you basically don't truly like/have but try to exude. And I don't think that's a valid argument for ENTj, anyway. There are other factors that would have to be taken into account for your being that type, one of which being skill with Ni (which I don't see).

Right, I think we need to get clear on something. Are you accepting of Model A; is this where you primarily draw your ideas of socionics?

Why are you so proud of being aggressive anyway?

I'm pretty sure I made it clear that I wasn't. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've made this clear multiple times. I don't like being aggressive. It's just what I am. It doesn't help me, so why in fuck's name would I want to attempt to mirror a trait that doesn't aid me in any way? What kind of idiot would do that?

Why the hell does he think he's this big alpha male? It seems like he's actually very weak and he's trying to cover up something.

I promise you, I am not trying to cover anything up. Tell you what, I'll make a video. I'll write down what I'm going to talk about, stay on topic, and keep focused. I'll try and explain my deepest, darkest feelings.

Ezra, I am just honestly curious but can you please tell me what your dad is like, and what your relationship with him is like?

My dad is very introverted and withdrawn. I enjoy discussing typologies and "the world" (politics and philosophy) with him, and contrasting with the rest of the family, we're the two intellectuals. That's as far as our "connection" goes I think. We're two different people. He often sees my loud voice and aggressive tone as toxic, and I just think he's being weak and can't take it. But then when people all around me are thinking the same thing (but many aren't often saying it), I start to think that maybe he has a point; maybe my force is too much. He doesn't really shy away from problems, but he hates people trying to get him to do things. My mother used to take the direct route; it would never work. He'd just whine and complain that my mother was "micromanaging" his life. I'd use more subtle techniques; if I wanted something, I'd act like I was trying to sell him a car. I think he's easily convinced by my rationale. I think he's fundamentally a good guy; although my parents had a slip up last August (being partially my dad's fault (but that was merely the trigger) and partially because the relationship simply wasn't working (I think my mother is IEE and my father IEI)), he still maintains good relations with my mother, my brother and sister and myself. However, I do think he is quite selfish. Or rather; self-absorbed. Basically, it's instinctive, but I get the feeling his relationship with his girlfriend is more important than it is with us. Perhaps he just doesn't know how to show true love to certain people; perhaps he's merely preoccupied. I don't know. I think he has helped me a lot throughout my life; especially educationally. This is what I see him as; primarily someone who brought me up to appreciate the power of knowledge and ideas. I really do praise him for that, because it's a nice contrast - a nice balance - to how my mother has brought me up. In fact, I'd say I couldn't have hoped for more - psychologically - from either of my parents. They really have given me everything (lest money for uni) and I am extremely grateful for that; I respect them a lot for it.

[Gilly]

Ezra, you have to understand that your writing does come across as contrived rather often, and most obviously (perhaps) when you talk about yourself.

[strrrng]

Right, I think we need to get clear on something. Are you accepting of Model A; is this where you primarily draw your ideas of socionics?

I see its value and limitations. It is incorporated into my gestalt picture of socionics (although I don't like to call it "socionics").

[Lotus]

Is this thread even about Gilly's type anymore?

[FDG]

Ezra, you have to understand that your writing does come across as contrived rather often, and most obviously (perhaps) when you talk about yourself.

It doesn't at all to me. He's a very clear writer.

[marooned]

It doesn't at all to me. He's a very clear writer.

yeah, I don't understand this 'he's trying to be a way he isn't' thing. I don't see it at all. Sometimes the simplest explanation (he's just being who he is) is the correct one.

As for sounding contrived, I thought I would mention it is possible to sound contrived in posts without actually being contrived. Not that I'm saying Ezra's doing this. I'm just throwing that in there.

[Ezra]

Ezra, you have to understand that your writing does come across as contrived rather often, and most obviously (perhaps) when you talk about yourself.

K.

I see its value and limitations. It is incorporated into my gestalt picture of socionics (although I don't like to call it "socionics").

Right then. I don't think what is at work here are our differing views of socionics, so it'll be hard to reach a consensus.

yeah, I don't understand this 'he's trying to be a way he isn't' thing. I don't see it at all. Sometimes the simplest explanation (he's just being who he is) is the correct one.

As for sounding contrived, I thought I would mention it is possible to sound contrived in posts without actually being contrived. Not that I'm saying Ezra's doing this. I'm just throwing that in there.

Yeah I don't understand it either. I mean, okay, sometimes I have crappy introspective skills and I make myself out to be what I'm not, but my actual nature; the shit you see on camera - that is me.

[Gilly]

Why does it comes across that way?

I don't know, that's just my honest impression.

Is this thread even about Gilly's type anymore?

I guess not really, although I see many similarities between Ezra and myself, so I consider any progress on his type to be mildly related to any on my own.

Besides, I've settled back (as usual) on ILE 7w6 so/sx (for now ).