Oh, scared of a little +Ne bearing down against -Ne, are we? That settles it: you're ISTj.Originally Posted by UDP
I will never yield to fear. Ever.
Oh, scared of a little +Ne bearing down against -Ne, are we? That settles it: you're ISTj.
I will never yield to fear. Ever.
If he was istj (and you are intj) you would be comparative and there would be no real problem there.
Anyway..
Dude, no need not to yield to fear, but you know there is a point in UDP there..for instance..remember how you spoke to Jessica when she was just doing her job. It seems like you've possibly did pretty much the same thing with your teacher.
Maybe your teacher is wrong. Thing is you know your not gonna get anywhere by speaking like you do, or at least you should/could have realised you won't - in this particular situation. Aren't you clever enough to not keep making same mistake? Hey we all say things then realise we shouldn't, then it's time to (usually) apologise. Bottom line here though-you run the risk of getting kicked out of college over something you could have handled better.
I don't think your not giving in to fear..I think you are just being childish. However dude, way to look at it (and i'm trying to help) is to say you are not going to give in to your fear of admitting you might have made a mistake.
Last edited by Cyclops; 04-25-2008 at 05:40 PM.
Then I guess you'll be the toughest dude working at Starbucks.
SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype
And so, we see how Robespierre "led" a totally unsuccessful "revolution".
Just because I don't say "there there" and tell you how great you are doesn't mean I'm your enemy, nor say anything about your type.
Last edited by UDP; 04-25-2008 at 10:53 PM.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Regardless of whether there is fear or not, there are still consequences. Reality is not emotional like you and I. If I were you, I would first put this into perspective and then deal with it more logically.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
Look to your own PoLR. It isn't fair for you to mistreat herany more than it was for her to mistreat your
. So consider where your common ground is (
) and work from there. That professor isn't in charge of the university... work within the system.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
tcaud, i'm glad you're being suspended. you don't belong anywhere near academia.
I had a hearing today, in which I was summarily suspended. I had previously had a dispute with a smart-alec financial aid advisor, which was taken into account also.... I had deliberately toned down my approach since then (the dispute was resolved), and had thought I was safe in my chosen approach (no gestures this time); far be it from me to suspect that universities gave their teachers nigh dictatorial power over their teaching and assessment. The instructor, who had uncanny aptitude for remembering the sequence of events as they happened... (nevermind, I think she wrote them down after I left) said about as much about my "unkempt" physical appearance (I was sporting a light beard and long, curly hair at the time) and my habit of coming in late to class (but attending!) as she did about the encounter. Clearly she wanted to portray me in as negative a light as possible; particularly, she tried to paint me as "weird" and "disturbing".
What's interesting about the judgement, is that I was cited on a very vague charge: other physical or mental harm.
What is that? A clause after the handbook entry suggests that it is a means by which the university can impunge people who have been accused of sexual assault/molestation but were later cleared of the charges: that's right, the institution is so extreme that it does not even respect the findings of its own investigative processes as a basis for justice! But more to the point, this charge is one of those "the administration looks out for its own/we don't know how to really deal with this so we're going to just suspend you and be done with it rather it is just or not" kinds of procedual ambiguity. This ambiguity is intolerable and I demand justice.
Good news everyone! Extremist practice in academia is something supersocion theory allows us to directly comprehend and confront. I don't figure I've anything to lose by asking difficult questions at the hearing... I'll absolutely question the wisdom of allowing fringe instructors to insult by the tip of their grading pen those beacons of tomorrow they disagree with, something that can be demonstrated as artificially lowering grade averages for those students who are unlucky enough to be stuck having them. By any degree of logic, the personal opinion of an instructor of a student should NEVER be a factor of their grade: demonstrated understanding of knowledge should itself be the exclusive criterion. With an accurate model of the dynamic underlying extremism in hand (function oppression), we can finally argue for rules mandating that teachers who have a history of conflict with their students only grade their students by standardized testing. Measures should be implemented to make the reporting of conflict-prone teachers as stress-free as possible. Grades will rise and university communities will become more wholesome. The extremists will think it unfair, but they hate themselves anyway so why lose sleep over it? Sucks to be them, but we didn't write the genome and it would suck a lot more for the majority to leave them be!
People of all political stripes -- conservative, progressive, liberal, communitarian, traditionalists (the paleo-political types as defined in political science), . Finally the individualist revolutionary is free from the fanatical zealotry of the traditionalist stalwart; the liberal is free from the close-mindedness of the conservative fringe; the conservative is free to attest to their beliefs in the face of the liberal radical; and the traditionist who upholds time tested standards of activity is free to prove their academic metal in the face of the rebel-without-a-cause, whatever the campus and whatever the institution. These concerns may not be of particular concern to a majority of college students, many of which devote themselves to an unprofessional, arguably time-wasting enterprise of getting inside their professor's heads; but to a small minority of particularly outspoken -- and moreover, creative -- individuals, they are imperative; for it is these same creative people who feel they are responsible for seeing to it that given the opportunity, their fellows need not embark on useless endevor.
Of late top employers have said they look more carefully at 'B' students who took time out from their studies to hone their insight than they do 'A' students who gave every last energy to meet their educational institution's highest standards, whatever that meant. (and I caution, the meaning of such is again, getting inside the professors' heads). The question arises, why aren't the 'B' students 'A' students also? The answer lies with the extremists and their arbitrary tyranny. Cast down the extremists, and America's GPAs will rise.
The linchpin to the argument that extremists can be depended on to oppress certain types (the confli. In fact, much of the argument has its root in extremism: ESFp-INTj relations, for example, can be quite tame if there is mutual respect and consideration between the partners. (and that is indeed possible) However, when either of the partners is an extremist the relation invariably earns its "conflict" name.
ISTj-INTj relations are comparative, sure... but there is more to these relations than meets the eye. INTj and ISTj share functions of shadow archetype, which lends itself to projections of the worst nature. -Ti always feels threatened by +Ti just as +Ti is threatened by -Ti. In as much as INTj and ISTj would seek to defend their suggestive functions, -Ti is on guard against +Fi on behalf of -Fe, even as +Ti disdains -Fe for +Fi. Again, when there is mutual respect between the two these hostilities can be mitigated, but when either side feels the victory of its antithesis in imminent, the relationship will regress into negative projection as the ego uses whatever it feels it has at its disposal to fight off the aggressor. (real or imagined)
It doesn't matter how you analyze this tcau
You fucked up
You got suspended
You did something wrong
Just accept it. It's not socionics' fault, its your own
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
It doesn't fit in the system?
Well, good luck mate.
Maybe you can fit direct accountability into your system someday.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
it's the way you talk tcaud... you're too political and theoretical to not be seen as a threat by normal God fearing Uhhhmericans. try to just smile and nod more. not every interaction demands the exposure of raw truth.
Yup. Smiling and nodding can get you pretty far actually. No really.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Yah I think it's something along these lines too, academia these days is a stupid institutionalized circle jerk, the wisdom of the elders, so to speak, is fading as they die off, leaving the Baby Boomers in control of everything. Baby boomers are basically the most socially irresponsible, selfish, greedy, lazy generation this earth has ever seen. If the economy crashes and all their savings disappear it will be fucking hilarious.
INFp-Ni
Direct accountability to what?
Did I mention that this instructor is a woman? The previous arguement problem I had was with a woman, also.
I'm seeing a kind of silent double-standardizing in effect here, that is running below the radar of conscious reason. If I confronted a man like such, I would have been told, "disagree with me if you like. You can drop the class if you prefer." I highly suspect that the reason the instructor reported me is because she was a woman who felt victimized by a man.
If women can't stand the heat... then we should respect that openly and consider that in our rulemaking, to whatever effect comes of that. Barring what for men is a natural means of assessing another's position in situations of conflict just so that women can feel more at ease, is a step too far. They want equality, then they'll have to settle for the same.
I also warn you UDP: in your youth and ignorance of the transcendent experience, you are projecting. You aren't being fair to me at all.
equal =/= same
I don't agree that carrying on and insulting people is the "man" way to do it.
What on earth is that supposed to prove?
Do you ever stop rationalizing things?I'm seeing a kind of silent double-standardizing in effect here, that is running below the radar of conscious reason. If I confronted a man like such, I would have been told, "disagree with me if you like. You can drop the class if you prefer." I highly suspect that the reason the instructor reported me is because she was a woman who felt victimized by a man.
If women can't stand the heat... then we should respect that openly and consider that in our rulemaking, to whatever effect comes of that. Barring what for men is a natural means of assessing another's position in situations of conflict just so that women can feel more at ease, is a step too far. They want equality, then they'll have to settle for the same.
So now it is not only a socionics matter, but a Male Female issue.
Come on now.
What are you going to say next, she is a lesbian?
She is from a different religious or ethnic background from you?
She doesn't like people with your hair color?
Well I'm glad I missed whatever experience that was. You trying to hold yourself as above my remarks, based on your knowledge of socionics? You keep squirming...I also warn you UDP: in your youth and ignorance of the transcendent experience, you are projecting. You aren't being fair to me at all.
I don't see how this has anything to do with being fair. I'm telling you (apparently) things you are not seeing, I'm not passing judgment on you.
So let me ask you a question,
do you, personally, have ANY fault what so ever in this situation?
If so, what is it?
Or is this all because that person is another type, and another gender - and thus the conflict is what it is. Is she just out to get you, and you have done nothing wrong nor had any part in this. IS that what it is?
I'll try to be fair, so tell me what you think.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Sounds like you might like Wesleyan...
Seriously though, this does seem overly reactionary on Miami U's part. It sounds like this prof tried to paint you as a potential Virginia Tech... Good thing is though, if you want to continue on at Miami U., they only suspended and didn't expel you... Also, as I'm sure you know, there are plenty of universities that might be a better social fit (from an administrative stand-point, at the very least...) If you want to stay in Ohio, Oberlin might be one to check out, or even Earlham College.
Also, in response to what you wrote about tyranny and extremist practices, I'll just say that your view is idealistic, and noble in that way--that said, I believe you'll find (if you haven't already) that there's a critical mass of dicks and fools at most places, including at many companies and universities, even the "good" ones. Thus personal opinion, favoritism, (including: colleagues who 'got each otha's backs' to an unreasonable degree,) and other unjust mindsets/practices influence things that ideally, they shouldn't... It's the way of the world.
I wish you luck, tcaud, sincerely... Small consolation: I've found that life will often throw this kind of stuff at someone at times when it's most helpful for that person to evolve.
I'm open to evolving my personality, but before I can do that a case must be made as to why, and it can't be just "because that's the way it is". I never change on basis of reactions like UDP just had, because those aren't clear thinking. If it doesn't fit in the system, it doesn't stick.Sounds like you might like Wesleyan...
Seriously though, this does seem overly reactionary on Miami U's part. It sounds like this prof tried to paint you as a potential Virginia Tech... Good thing is though, if you want to continue on at Miami U., they only suspended and didn't expel you... Also, as I'm sure you know, there are plenty of universities that might be a better social fit (from an administrative stand-point, at the very least...) If you want to stay in Ohio, Oberlin might be one to check out, or even Earlham College.
Also, in response to what you wrote about tyranny and extremist practices, I'll just say that your view is idealistic, and noble in that way--that said, I believe you'll find (if you haven't already) that there's a critical mass of dicks and fools at most places, including at many companies and universities, even the "good" ones. Thus personal opinion, favoritism, (including: colleagues who 'got each otha's backs' to an unreasonable degree,) and other unjust mindsets/practices influence things that ideally, they shouldn't... It's the way of the world.
I wish you luck, tcaud, sincerely... Small consolation: I've found that life will often throw this kind of stuff at someone at times when it's most helpful for that person to evolve.
Thank you for your support.
Maybe your ISTj teacher feels the same.
EXACTLY.
If you want an ISTj to reconisder you:
1. Recognise that we value hard work and determination --> go out of your way to provide EVIDENCE that you embody those qualities AND be consistent
2. Respect their authority/ have some humility --> be honest about your faults and demonstrate ways in which you try to overcome them (refer to 1)
Adhere to both these points and they'll put you in the most favourable position given the circumstance.
I think you're too black and white with this evil thing Tcaud. I mean there's nothing wrong with seeing the world like that, except that really it's all shades of grey. your teacher wasn't inentionally being Evil... she just has a different way of doing things.
You'd better offer a reason to expect it then. And, you'd have better already made every effort to make the experience as easy as possible -- that is, if it's difficult at all, then it had better be because no one could think of a way to make it easier. INTjs will accept nothing less. We -- but such should only be demanded when there is no other way. Anything less is utter arrogance. (Machintruc calls ISTjs narrowminded for a reason, you know!)
I know that not all ISTjs really prize unnecessary effort -- not all ISTjs are alike.
It's been said before: INTj respect is earned, never acquiesced. The burden for my respect is respect for my logical sensibility.2. Respect their authority/ have some humility --> be honest about your faults and demonstrate ways in which you try to overcome them (refer to 1)
Adhere to both these points and they'll put you in the most favourable position given the circumstance.
instead of always focusing on what you can't do and why you can't act different you should explore what where you CAN bend.
I do, this point simply isn't one of them.
fair enough
I think you're a great example of someone who needs their dual very much, a confident one that you wouldn't scare the shit out of when you talk to them. They'd most likely stop you and just shake the shit out of you before telling you to chill the fuck out and be a bit more rational about your predicament.
Shitty things in life are much easier to blame on other people but most of the time you need to refocus your little lens on reality and see, oops... I fucked up there... and then fix the situation, even if you have to sacrifice a little pride to do so.
Seriously though, and I'd rather not put this the wrong way but there's no other way for me to say it... and of course I know you'll just attack the shit out of me for saying it. BUT... You seem to have some MAJOR issues when it comes to dealing with people... You can be the most intelligent person in the world, and reeeeeally think so like you obviously do... but when it comes down to it, that won't help you out in any way if nobody will take you seriously. Now, the problem... is that you come across as "serious" in all the wrong ways. Which, as you pointed out... scared the hell out of your professors and makes them want to "get rid of you."
It's really sad though, because I already know what your reply will be to this, and i'm sure there will be a you're not intelligent to be in this convo, or you don't know what you're talking about, or some other defensive remark telling me I'm full of shit and you're right because of x, y, z reasons... and deep down... this is your problem, it's much bigger than just this incident with school too though... I just hope that at some point you realize it.
What were you saying about arrogance?
Your response is a good example of why you're in this predicament.
You're so intent on justifying your stance that you lose all focus on a practical solution to your problems and when offered one, the same situation arises again.
Yeah, apparently much more so than whether what you say has any reality, or whether it is effective or not.
Mhm
Maybe he should spend less time trying to justify your logical sensibility and just focus on what you need to do to move forward.
You bring balance to the force. That is why the world needs people like you
What I needed to see, when I was in Tcau's situation (which I was) was a little of both. I needed someone to be stubbornly an ass to me and make sure I saw what I did wrong, AND understanding as well. So both reveal the way to blossoming.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
UDP, you have become one ARROGANT son-of-a-bitch. (no offense to your mother)Yeah, apparently much more so than whether what you say has any reality, or whether it is effective or not.
Mhm
Maybe he should spend less time trying to justify your logical sensibility and just focus on what you need to do to move forward.
You bring balance to the force. That is why the world needs people like you
What I needed to see, when I was in Tcau's situation (which I was) was a little of both. I needed someone to be stubbornly an ass to me and make sure I saw what I did wrong, AND understanding as well. So both reveal the way to blossoming.
Now you're saying I'm out of touch with reality. At least some people here disagree with you. Tell us, UDP. Tell us more about "reality".
I can already tell you're projecting your hero-complex against me. Really smart dude. Lemme tell ya, "to know true light, you must first know darkness". (that's a quote from Sword of Mana, FTW)
Lemme tell ya, the light shining inside the darkness is a lot more illuminating that the light outside of it. Just ask Cecil Harvey. ;-)
Ah, cheer up. Let's write a three-word story about pencils in a supermarket.
Let's see... One
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
I'm only sorry I deceived you for so long. I do not mean to show my true colours too abruptly so as to warrant much alarm. I happen to like being called an arrogant SOB so I'm putting that in my sig lol
I'm out of touch with those quotes. But I will take your word on them being of a high caliber in terms of true wisdom.Now you're saying I'm out of touch with reality. At least some people here disagree with you. Tell us, UDP. Tell us more about "reality".
I can already tell you're projecting your hero-complex against me. Really smart dude. Lemme tell ya, "to know true light, you must first know darkness". (that's a quote from Sword of Mana, FTW)
Lemme tell ya, the light shining inside the darkness is a lot more illuminating that the light outside of it. Just ask Cecil Harvey. ;-)
As far as reality, apparently you're suspended. That's the bottom line, isn't it? Good luck with everything. As it was said, you're smart. You'll find your way.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
gay sex
Last edited by istpunk; 07-17-2008 at 08:39 AM.
@tcaudilllg:
Once my father, a LII like you, gave me a book of Lin Yutang. I don't remember the title of the book, but it was a brilliant exposition of humility. He said, among other things, that as impressive as intelligence may be, it doesn't necessarily make you a better person. He preferred a reasonable person over a rational one.
I've read a lot of your posts and I have no doubt that you're quite intelligent. But maybe you're overestimating your own intelligence and assuming that you can judge everything and everyone and always be right about it. From time to time think that you might be wrong, no matter if you understand you error or not. And that the mistakes we don't understand are the ones which affect us the most.
[| NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
I thought about various things I could say, but bottom line is your clever guy..if it don't work out..as one door closes another door opens (things such as the occasionial academia never stopped Einstein, eg.) hey, if you want my indepth advice (if you think it may be of benefit) drop me a pm
This sounds reasonable. Perhaps worth a read? (have you read it already?)
Any reason proposed by mikemex is probably well beyond my comprehension.
I've come to perceive that whatever happens Saturday, I have may have a much larger problem to deal with besides. One of the reasons I tried to stand up to this professor is because this would have been the third class in a row that I'd failed or just barely passed (with a D-) due to the demands of the professors that I think like them. ("critical thinking", as I discussed in another thread). These classes have brought down my GPA to something like a C-; it would probably be a B- otherwise. Adding an F to what looks to be a something around a C+ average this semester will probably lower it to a D.... That threatens my financial aid. I may or may not have failed had I not confronted her (perhaps she would have had "mercy" as the other two did and given me a D-), but again that's hardly better.
If anything, these grades prevent me from competing seriously for scholarships. But, I guess that's what the system is tailor-made to do, to make things as tough on people with controversial ideas as possible.
Or maybe... actually wait, I think I get it now. The system expects that I should "ask around" about professors before taking their classes? Seems a little biased towards extroverts.
Last edited by tcaudilllg; 04-30-2008 at 03:25 AM.
Want it simple? Stop thinking like a robot.
[
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
Please, stop thinking altogether.
To those of you who still disagree with me about how I acted, considering the following scenario should help you walk a mile in my shoes, so to speak. Imagine signing up for an important class, only to realize that Phaedrus is the instructor. It is too late to drop the class, and you must now write a paper for him about the differences between MBTI and socionics.
Need I say more?
Last edited by tcaudilllg; 04-30-2008 at 04:05 AM.
As usual, I'm hesitant to respond to you because of our history, but I really do think there are some things you need to hear for your own good. How you can have this history and blame the institutions instead of yourself if beyond me. Perhaps it's because you're intelligent and think, "No way can I be failing! It must be the teachers!" but I mean, come on... the only constant here is an arguementative student who refuses to accept the rules of how things work in the world. Unless you want to waste that intelligence of yours being a bitter fuck working in wal-mart for the rest of your life (or something worse) it's time to learn how to play the game. Nobody says that you have to live the game, just learn it enough to stop failing classes over personality clashes. I'd much rather provide sympathy here, but I truly think it's brutal honesty you need. sorry.
2nd transcendent function?
Sorry, I looked it up since you mentioned it, and it struck me as related to your current situation. Are you trying to deliberately control the development of your 2nd transcendental function to gain an advantage? Or were you referring to the first, or perhaps something else entirely?
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
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