Clubs on Wikisocion

[Ezra]

I don't think they're completely bullshit, but I do think they're not all-encompassing. I'm prepared to say that the descriptions for NT and NF are fairly consistent with the types' behaviour and thought patterns (insofar that NT and NF types basically will act in the way they are defined on Wikisocion).

Nonetheless, I'm not prepared to accept certain facts about the SFs or the STs. I'm inclined to think that the description for the ST club fits Delta STs quite well, but not Beta STs. Likewise, I think Alpha SFs could clearly identify themselves as being a part of the SF club, but I doubt Gamma SFs, especially ESIs, would find that the description resonates well with them. Regardless of the (most recent) controversy over my type, I'm Se leading. And I can tell you now, I identify with neither the SF nor the ST description. NT resonates far more with me. And I bet you'll find plenty of others on here who have the same issue as I do. To be quite honest, I've never discussed manual work, engineering or sports in my life. I find these topics incredibly dull. I'm far more likely to engage in political discussion, or philosophical discussion on some levels.

More than "general trends", I think they're wrong, and I think they need changing. Instead of "This kind of group behavior, though, in terms of seeing a club as any kind of unit, is visible only as long as the group is held together by, and focuses on, discussions and activities of their common interests. Longer and deeper interactions make such a club visibly "split" into the two quadras, n quadra and n quadra", there should be more detail about the clubs in their respective quadras, and the description about what Beta STs and Gamma SFs discuss and focus on should be changed.

[Phaedrus]

I don't think they're completely bullshit, but I do think they're not all-encompassing.

Think again. They are definitely all-encompassing.

I'm prepared to say that the descriptions for NT and NF are fairly consistent with the types' behaviour and thought patterns (insofar that NT and NF types basically will act in the way they are defined on Wikisocion).

There is nothing wrong with them. They are correct, but more can be said.

Nonetheless, I'm not prepared to accept certain facts about the SFs or the STs.

You simply must accept them. It's the basics of Socionics. It's the basic facts about the types. If you don't accept it, you don't accept Socionics. If you want to invent your own typology, don't call it Socionics.

I'm inclined to think that the description for the ST club fits Delta STs quite well, but not Beta STs.

You are wrong. It fits all of them perfectly.

Likewise, I think Alpha SFs could clearly identify themselves as being a part of the SF club, but I doubt Gamma SFs, especially ESIs, would find that the description resonates well with them.

Some ESIs are somewhat reluctant to accept such descriptions of themselves, but if you study ESIs in real life situations you will see that it fits them perfectly nevertheless. They are exactly like that too.

Regardless of the (most recent) controversy over my type, I'm Se leading.

No, you are not leading. Definitely not.

And I can tell you now, I identify with neither the SF nor the ST description.

And that's the reason why. It's a definite proof that you are not leading. I hate your stupidity, Ezra. Get rid of it, please.

NT resonates far more with me.

Of course. You are a LIE.

And I bet you'll find plenty of others on here who have the same issue as I do.

Only if they have been brainwashed -- by themselves or others. This is no real problem. You haven't learned the types correctly, that's why.

To be quite honest, I've never discussed manual work, engineering or sports in my life. I find these topics incredibly dull. I'm far more likely to engage in political discussion, or philosophical discussion on some levels.

Typical NT Researcher. ENTj -- just as all your test results indicate.

More than "general trends", I think they're wrong, and I think they need changing.

Idiot. Moron. Jerk. How stupid do you think you are you allowed to be? I can't stand your lack of intelligence. Improve it. Now. And get rid of this ridiculously stupid, infantile, hopelessly misguided idea that you are an SLE.

If these basic, and indisputably true, facts about the types don't fit your understanding of yourself and the types, you should change your understanding of Socionics. How dare you question these things? It is common and totally correct, basic knowledge. ACCEPT IT.

[JRiddy]

Wow, Phaedrus. I was trying to be open-minded about you, which was hard considering threads like "The Flaw in Phaedrus' reasoning", but here you're just being a dogmatic ass.

The problem with the common description of being all about practical, manual stuff is that it is a blatant attempt at trait-sorting, as opposed to information analysis. It's the same kind of argument as "if you don't think about time all the time, you're not leading ". This kind of binary thinking only serves to alienate you from everyone else. To put this in terms, if you want to get your point across, you should find ways that actually affect change in people's thinking, and curb the impulse to deride every single thought that doesn't line up perfectly with your own.

I agree with Steve that the clubs descriptions on the wiki are lacking and in some ways inaccurate. Clubs as a phenomena would probably be better described by analyzing the intertype relationships, which in clubs are ego-id relations (mirror, extinguishment, quasi).

[liveandletlive]

they may not be all-encompassing, but i think there are limits to how specific the club descriptions can be while still applying to all SFs, NTs, STs, and NFs so for the time being i think they're good generalizations.

[implied]

i'm not really ready to call them totally useless and something that should be obliterated in their current state because i think they could be useful to someone who were completely, absolutely, 100% unfamiliar with socionics or mbti or any such thing. but my idea is that most people who even bother to look at the wikisocion for information probably aren't really that confused as to what the NT stereotype is, the SF stereotype, etc. i agree they're sort of rudimentary, so perhaps it would be useful to add some supplementary stuff. i know the type domains are really probably where this sort of discussion (i.e. "i'm a XX but when i gather with my XX friends we talk about X.") belongs, but i'm really not sure what can be added to fit the exception without just putting a big ass disclaimer at the top that says, "BUT NOT ALL XX CLUB MEMBERS ARE THIS WAY/NOT ALL STS ARE GREASERS." etc, etc, etc.

[Phaedrus]

Wow, Phaedrus. I was trying to be open-minded about you, which was hard considering threads like "The Flaw in Phaedrus' reasoning", but here you're just being a dogmatic ass.

No. My stance towards the typing of Ezra is the only correct one. Look at the evidence. Have you done that? And have you understood my arguments? If you have, you simply must agree with my reasoning.

The problem with the common description of being all about practical, manual stuff is that it is a blatant attempt at trait-sorting, as opposed to information analysis. It's the same kind of argument as "if you don't think about time all the time, you're not leading ".

So, why does Ezra fall into that trap? Why does he focus on irrelevant aspects of the functions instead of learning how the real types are? Can you make him take reason and reconsider his type? Please do that if you know how.

This kind of binary thinking only serves to alienate you from everyone else.

Irrelevant. I am only loyal to the truth, not to any group of people if they are blind to it.

To put this in terms, if you want to get your point across, you should find ways that actually affect change in people's thinking, and curb the impulse to deride every single thought that doesn't line up perfectly with your own.

Another irrelevant comment. Since ILIs are not particularly good at getting their points across, why can't you or someone else do the job instead? The only thing that is important to me is to get things right, to get rid of people's false beliefs. I don't care how it is done.

I agree with Steve that the clubs descriptions on the wiki are lacking and in some ways inaccurate.

They are described to briefly, but they are not inaccurate. How can you say that they are inaccurate? Don't you understand them?

Clubs as a phenomena would probably be better described by analyzing the intertype relationships, which in clubs are ego-id relations (mirror, extinguishment, quasi).

Why? Can you improve their descriptions along those lines? Or are you only bluffing? Make an attempt and we'll see if it's any better.

[JRiddy]

No. My stance towards the typing of Ezra is the only correct one. Look at the evidence. Have you done that? And have you understood my arguments? If you have, you simply must agree with my reasoning.

I understand what you are saying. I do not have access to the information you are using form your premises, though. My reasoning is that without having ever actually met Ezra, none of us really have all that much information about him. Your primary argument appears to be, "I, out of a decidedly small body of information, am far more qualified to determine someone's type because my understanding is absolutely perfect." I really don't see what "evidence" you are suggesting I look at.

Another irrelevant comment. Since ILIs are not particularly good at getting their points across, why can't you or someone else do the job instead? The only thing that is important to me is to get things right, to get rid of people's false beliefs. I don't care how it is done.

My (quite relevant) point was that if you would like to rid this world of "false beliefs", you might consider adopting a tone that encourages people to think, rather than one that encourages them to block you. And the "my type sucks at this" argument? C'mon. I guess since I'm an ILE I don't have to pay my bills or file my taxes because I'm not good at detail-oriented work. Grow up.

Why? Can you improve their descriptions along those lines? Or are you only bluffing? Make an attempt and we'll see if it's any better.

I'll see what I can do. I don't want to overstate my understanding of socionics, but I can say that a focus on very specific, literal applications is likely to leave many feeling excluded, because there's a lot of diversity even with in the same types.

[Phaedrus]

I understand what you are saying. I do not have access to the information you are using form your premises, though. My reasoning is that without having ever actually met Ezra, none of us really have all that much information about him. Your primary argument appears to be, "I, out of a decidedly small body of information, am far more qualified to determine someone's type because my understanding is absolutely perfect." I really don't see what "evidence" you are suggesting I look at.

Ezra's test results and what type descriptions and temperament descriptions he identifies with. All of them point in the same direction -- towards ENTj. No one on this forum (except from Ezra himself and maybe those who have met him in real life) can be 100 % sure of his correct type, but based on the information we in fact do have access to we simply must come to the conclusion that his most likely type is ENTj. No other conclusion is reasonable seen from our perspective. If we don't want to see Ezra as an ENTj, then we dismiss what he says as irrelevant and not worthy of consideration. That is the same thing as believing that Ezra is deluded, that he is totally confused and can't answer a test correctly. Do you really want to base your typing of him on such a ground?

My (quite relevant) point was that if you would like to rid this world of "false beliefs", you might consider adopting a tone that encourages people to think, rather than one that encourages them to block you.

And how exactly do I do that? What exactly do you think that I should change in order to get that result? Why do people pay so much attention to the form instead of the truth content of my posts? They could easily check the facts themselves, but they tend to refuse to do so. How do I make them change their behaviour?

And the "my type sucks at this" argument? C'mon. I guess since I'm an ILE I don't have to pay my bills or file my taxes because I'm not good at detail-oriented work. Grow up.

My philosophy when it comes to work and how to organize a society is that people should do what they are relatively better than others at doing. It's a waste of resources to expect everyone to do the same things as everyone else. We are not equally good at everything, so we would all benefit from a rational division of labour in relation to what each type is good at.

If both you and I agree on what is the correct attitude to adopt and what is most likely the truth, and you happen to know a better way to communicate those truths to others, why can't you help all of us by sharing those insights? What's the point of hoping that I will somehow come to realize how to do something you already know how to do?

This is not a contest to me. We should all try to collaborate in the mutual pursuit of finding the objective truth and getting rid of false beliefs.

[Elro]

Idiot. Moron. Jerk. How stupid do you think you are you allowed to be? I can't stand your lack of intelligence. Improve it. Now. And get rid of this ridiculously stupid, infantile, hopelessly misguided idea that you are an SLE.

If these basic, and indisputably true, facts about the types don't fit your understanding of yourself and the types, you should change your understanding of Socionics. How dare you question these things? It is common and totally correct, basic knowledge. ACCEPT IT.

Wow. Are you being serious? This seems almost surreal.

[Phaedrus]

Wow. Are you being serious? This seems almost surreal.

I only want Ezra to wake up from his erroneous beliefs about his type and the types in general. He has got many things right, but he is totally wrong about some very important details. He has no reason to believe that he is an SLE, and yet he does. I hate such mistakes.

[Mariano Rajoy]

I only want Ezra to wake up from his erroneous beliefs about his type and the types in general. He has got many things right, but he is totally wrong about some very important details. He has no reason to believe that he is an SLE, and yet he does. I hate such mistakes.

Go type Ezra in person.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Go type Ezra in person.

In view of the fact that Ezra has been encouraging discussion of his type on the forums, this comment is somewhat irrelevant.

[Hitta]

Think again. They are definitely all-encompassing.


There is nothing wrong with them. They are correct, but more can be said.


You simply must accept them. It's the basics of Socionics. It's the basic facts about the types. If you don't accept it, you don't accept Socionics. If you want to invent your own typology, don't call it Socionics.


You are wrong. It fits all of them perfectly.


Some ESIs are somewhat reluctant to accept such descriptions of themselves, but if you study ESIs in real life situations you will see that it fits them perfectly nevertheless. They are exactly like that too.


No, you are not leading. Definitely not.


And that's the reason why. It's a definite proof that you are not leading. I hate your stupidity, Ezra. Get rid of it, please.


Of course. You are a LIE.


Only if they have been brainwashed -- by themselves or others. This is no real problem. You haven't learned the types correctly, that's why.


Typical NT Researcher. ENTj -- just as all your test results indicate.


Idiot. Moron. Jerk. How stupid do you think you are you allowed to be? I can't stand your lack of intelligence. Improve it. Now. And get rid of this ridiculously stupid, infantile, hopelessly misguided idea that you are an SLE.

If these basic, and indisputably true, facts about the types don't fit your understanding of yourself and the types, you should change your understanding of Socionics. How dare you question these things? It is common and totally correct, basic knowledge. ACCEPT IT.

I'm not the type to fit in and agree with everyone else, but this has to be the dumbest post I've ever read.

[Elro]

[FDG]

Yeah, I find them too stereotypical. Controlling for mixed subtype probably makes them work more easily ex. a Ti-ISTj would be a cross between researcher and pragmatist in terms of interests, a Te-ENTj same, a Si-ESTj a cross between pragmatist and social, a mixed subtype should fit perfectly the description. I would peg myself as inbetween pragmatist and researcher, even if I shun both super nerdy activities and (bleah) sport cars gatherings.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Although the club descriptions on wiki are perhaps not perfect, they are fairly accurate.

I think that the fact that Ezra identifies with NT more than ST probably means it's more likely he's mistyping himself as ST as opposed to us re-writing the wiki descriptions because he wants an ST club to look like an NT description

But ok, they may be generalizing to a point, but then they have to, to a point. I know plenty beta ST's that fit the ST description better than the NT description. Just a thought.

@jriddy, I may be wrong here, but you seem to be assuming Phaedrus doesn't understand , why? From what I can tell he hasn't described on this thread.

[domr]

Yeah, I find them too stereotypical. Controlling for mixed subtype probably makes them work more easily ex. a Ti-ISTj would be a cross between researcher and pragmatist in terms of interests, a Te-ENTj same, a Si-ESTj a cross between pragmatist and social, a mixed subtype should fit perfectly the description. I would peg myself as inbetween pragmatist and researcher, even if I shun both super nerdy activities and (bleah) sport cars gatherings.

Why haven't you left like everyone else in this thread?