Type and Hidden Agenda aka Activating 6th Function

[Slacker]

I think the difference is defensiveness. Like Si is weak in me, but I'm ok with that. Te is weak in me, and I feel defensive if someone points it out. The opposite of my sister. She recognizes she is weak as far as Te goes, but she's defensive if I bring up her Si issues. If I say, "Oh come on, how many times are you going to clean that?" she'll get upset. Now if my husband says, "Please tell me you didn't drive far enough to use two gallons of gas to save 50 cents on something," I feel a little dumb. If he points out an Si thing, I just do what he says and I don't feel dumb about it.

[Mea]

I think the difference is defensiveness. Like Si is weak in me, but I'm ok with that. Te is weak in me, and I feel defensive if someone points it out. The opposite of my sister. She recognizes she is weak as far as Te goes, but she's defensive if I bring up her Si issues. If I say, "Oh come on, how many times are you going to clean that?" she'll get upset. Now if my husband says, "Please tell me you didn't drive far enough to use two gallons of gas to save 50 cents on something," I feel a little dumb. If he points out an Si thing, I just do what he says and I don't feel dumb about it.

Good observation. It's very true.

[Expat]

I have an example of this --

The new ESTj Managing Director, as soon as he was appointed, assembled all scientists and engineers from the company all over the world (including yours truly) for a big meeting. His INTj "strategic planning" sidekick presented his very detailed "6-year plan" - going one year better than the old communists - and the ESTj MD urged us to come up with "short-term winner solutions". The ENTps were grinning, the ENTjs were asking, "what do you call 'short-term'?", the INTps were bored, saying "and that's what I had to come here for?" and the sole INFp committed suicide.



The last one is a joke, the others aren't.

[XoX]

The ESFj or ESTj trying too hard to be funny (can't think of a better manifestation now).

The two ESTJ i've known well at my work always seemed to promote to others the need for "design" "innovation", the need to introduce staff into the office with strong "conceptual skills". Ofcourse the implication being that this was extremely important for them and that they were somehow part of a "new wave" . I was taken in by the posturing both times (at least at first - no idea about Socionics back then) .... seemed very convincing to me ! ... however over a period of time you began to see the reality. [1] They NEVER produced anything innovative themselves. [2] They always hired people they felt would be submissive to them & [3] They ran operations under their control like sweatshops. Lots of Talk but very little Action

My wife was 100% into this. She thought one of her workmates has written this. [EDIT: made this a bit less personal ]

[XoX]

When driving car in the city in a hurry and I focus on optimizing the route we drive and wife keeps saying "why did you turn left there? this is a bad route and we will lose another minute...we drove this same route a month ago..how can't you still remember it? It is obvious we should have turned right!" it really pisses me off. Ok, often men don't like to be told how to drive so it might just be about that, lol. I think my problem is not as much in optimizing the route but more like I have problems with all the sensory data e.g. remembering the city map and mapping my current physical environment to the city map in real time while driving. I think I'm fast in the actual optimization part. I hate it when my performance suffers because there is so many details to handle. No matter how fast you process you can't beat someone who has a clear picture of the map and our position in the map in their head.

But generally I hate it when it takes me a long time to find a solution to a problem and someone else just instantly solves it without much effort. It makes me feel worthless.

[FDG]

When driving car in the city in a hurry and I focus on optimizing the route we drive and wife keeps saying "why did you turn left there? this is a bad route and we will lose another minute...we drove this same route a month ago..how can't you still remember it? It is obvious we should have turned right!" it really pisses me off. Ok, often men don't like to be told how to drive so it might just be about that, lol. I think my problem is not as much in optimizing the route but more like I have problems with all the sensory data e.g. remembering the city map and mapping my current physical environment to the city map in real time while driving. I think I'm fast in the actual optimization part. I hate it when my performance suffers because there is so many details to handle. No matter how fast you process you can't beat someone who has a clear picture of the map and our position in the map in their head.

But generally I hate it when it takes me a long time to find a solution to a problem and someone else just instantly solves it without much effort. It makes me feel worthless.

I thought everybody always had a map in his/her head all the time...

[misutii]

When driving car in the city in a hurry and I focus on optimizing the route we drive and wife keeps saying "why did you turn left there? this is a bad route and we will lose another minute...we drove this same route a month ago..how can't you still remember it? It is obvious we should have turned right!" it really pisses me off. Ok, often men don't like to be told how to drive so it might just be about that, lol. I think my problem is not as much in optimizing the route but more like I have problems with all the sensory data e.g. remembering the city map and mapping my current physical environment to the city map in real time while driving. I think I'm fast in the actual optimization part. I hate it when my performance suffers because there is so many details to handle. No matter how fast you process you can't beat someone who has a clear picture of the map and our position in the map in their head.

But generally I hate it when it takes me a long time to find a solution to a problem and someone else just instantly solves it without much effort. It makes me feel worthless.

I thought everybody always had a map in his/her head all the time...

no... lol, personally I've always used the maps that seem to be in someone else's head. leave me alone for 2 minutes and i'll lose myself i swear

[XoX]

When driving car in the city in a hurry and I focus on optimizing the route we drive and wife keeps saying "why did you turn left there? this is a bad route and we will lose another minute...we drove this same route a month ago..how can't you still remember it? It is obvious we should have turned right!" it really pisses me off. Ok, often men don't like to be told how to drive so it might just be about that, lol. I think my problem is not as much in optimizing the route but more like I have problems with all the sensory data e.g. remembering the city map and mapping my current physical environment to the city map in real time while driving. I think I'm fast in the actual optimization part. I hate it when my performance suffers because there is so many details to handle. No matter how fast you process you can't beat someone who has a clear picture of the map and our position in the map in their head.

But generally I hate it when it takes me a long time to find a solution to a problem and someone else just instantly solves it without much effort. It makes me feel worthless.

I thought everybody always had a map in his/her head all the time...

no... lol, personally I've always used the maps that seem to be in someone else's head. leave me alone for 2 minutes and i'll lose myself i swear

I seem to have no sense of direction. No "bird's eye view" sort of. My "map" is tied to pretty much what I can see at the moment. I generally remember routes like "I have to turn right when I see a red flag, then left when I see a yellow door, then right again when I see a school". Now if I miss one of those turns then I am totally lost as in what direction I should go to get back on track. At this point I always call to someone who I know is good with maps. Then they are like "well I haven't been there but I would think that you must go to west a bit and then you are back on familiar territory". Then I'm like, well I guess I go west now...but where is west? I can learn a city after I drive around enough to know all the relevant routes. Then I can start optimizing pretty well. It slowly comes together. But if Iaccidentally go out of
the "familiar" territory I'm totally lost again and just drive around randomly like an ant searching for a familiar sign.

[Expat]

I seem to have no sense of direction. No "bird's eye view" sort of. My "map" is tied to pretty much what I can see at the moment. I generally remember routes like "I have to turn right when I see a red flag, then left when I see a yellow door, then right again when I see a school". Now if I miss one of those turns then I am totally lost as in what direction I should go to get back on track. At this point I always call to someone who I know is good with maps. Then they are like "well I haven't been there but I would think that you must go to west a bit and then you are back on familiar territory". Then I'm like, well I guess I go west now...but where is west? I can learn a city after I drive around enough to know all the relevant routes. Then I can start optimizing pretty well. It slowly comes together. But if Iaccidentally go out of
the "familiar" territory I'm totally lost again and just drive around randomly like an ant searching for a familiar sign.

That is very, very interesting. I am the total opposite. I am at my best with a "bird's eye view" map in my head and with a general idea of where north, south etc are. I am terrible with things like "turn right when you see a red flag". If someone starts giving me directions of this sort, I immediately ask for a sort of map - or just for the address so I can dowload a map from the internet.

I used to think that looking at signs and physical reference points was connected to but now I think it may be more related to . Of course, ESTps, ESFps, ISTps and ISFps should have ease with both the "map" and the reference points.

If so, this would be another indications that you are of a Si>Se quadra - again, assuming that this is correct.

[XoX]

I seem to have no sense of direction. No "bird's eye view" sort of. My "map" is tied to pretty much what I can see at the moment. I generally remember routes like "I have to turn right when I see a red flag, then left when I see a yellow door, then right again when I see a school". Now if I miss one of those turns then I am totally lost as in what direction I should go to get back on track. At this point I always call to someone who I know is good with maps. Then they are like "well I haven't been there but I would think that you must go to west a bit and then you are back on familiar territory". Then I'm like, well I guess I go west now...but where is west? I can learn a city after I drive around enough to know all the relevant routes. Then I can start optimizing pretty well. It slowly comes together. But if Iaccidentally go out of
the "familiar" territory I'm totally lost again and just drive around randomly like an ant searching for a familiar sign.

That is very, very interesting. I am the total opposite. I am at my best with a "bird's eye view" map in my head and with a general idea of where north, south etc are. I am terrible with things like "turn right when you see a red flag". If someone starts giving me directions of this sort, I immediately ask for a sort of map - or just for the address so I can dowload a map from the internet.

I used to think that looking at signs and physical reference points was connected to but now I think it may be more related to . Of course, ESTps, ESFps, ISTps and ISFps should have ease with both the "map" and the reference points.

If so, this would be another indications that you are of a Si>Se quadra - again, assuming that this is correct.

Slava once argued that Ne types are good at following "pathways" (in their mind but also physically). Ni would be better in making intuitive leaps which don't stick to the observed pathways and actually having problems trying to strictly follow the observed "pathways" or "patterns". I don't know how Si and Se affect here and if it is more about Si vs Se difference than Ni vs Ne difference.

But let's say I have travelled some route a zillion times. Eventually I can visualize how the route goes. I can travel it again and again in my mind. It becomes like a video tape. At this point I can start "turning the camera" e.g. I can start visualizing what it would be like to travel it in the other direction or look at the route from different camera angles. I can even sort of "zoom" into details about the environment which I didn't consciously notice before. It takes time to get into this point as I have rather bad memory for details. After a while I also tend to forget the details of the route again if I haven't activated that part of my memory. If I drive the same route after some months of not driving it then it can be very hard to remember how it actually goes (sort of anti-Dejavu) Is this kind of 3D visualization connected to Si? Perhaps Si-Ego types can do this kind of 3D visualization after driving some route once and not only after a zillion times. And perhaps they would be better at remembering the details even after a long time? What about Se-types? Can they do this?

Then I know that I tend to use my wife as a "map reader" because she is extremely good at remembering where to turn and so on. Remembering things like exact twists and turns of routes etc is so natural to her that she keeps on bitching to me about my memory as she can't accept it that I so easily forget those things. She blaims that there is nothing wrong with my memory in general (because I remember well details which interest me) and I am just too lazy to concentrate on the route and try to use her as a "detail storage and retrieval device" which annoys her. Is this how Si-dual seeking works? I just naturally expect her to offer me her services in storing and retrieving details for me? Expecting her to be my sort of personal database which I can query for information whenever I need to?

Querying information from my own brain sometimes seems to slow down my thought processes a lot which is kind of frustrating as I know I'm not processing information at my maximum level effectiveness without having someone to assist me.

[tcaudilllg]

I actually think my dual-type theory/crosstype theory is relevant to this discussion, because it entails the existence of hidden agendas in service to other hidden agendas. For example, INTj-ESFp desires to create "healthy knowledge"; ENFj-INTp to create "strong feeling."; ISFp-ISTj to "understand belief". Take Bill Gates' for example: ENTj-INTj "wealth for health", which explains in no small measure why it was he created Microsoft and pursued wealth so aggressively. ****** as ENFj-INTp: World War II was started to create strong feelings in himself and others, in particular feelings of hate.

[Expat]

Slava once argued that Ne types are good at following "pathways" (in their mind but also physically). Ni would be better in making intuitive leaps which don't stick to the observed pathways and actually having problems trying to strictly follow the observed "pathways" or "patterns". I don't know how Si and Se affect here and if it is more about Si vs Se difference than Ni vs Ne difference.

I agree with Slave there if one speaks of Ne-Si vs Ni-Se rather than Ne-Ni.

Neither Ne nor Ni are concerned with "real", immediate, in-front-of-you physical reality. Those are Si and Se concerns, the main difference being, the static-irrational Se function is concerned with how to change the present physical state in its own interest, whereas the dynamic-irrational Si is "contented" with the physical state as it "is", even if "is" is actually changing (which reminds me of Bill Clinton on the definition of "is").

But let's say I have travelled some route a zillion times. Eventually I can visualize how the route goes. I can travel it again and again in my mind. It becomes like a video tape. At this point I can start "turning the camera" e.g. I can start visualizing what it would be like to travel it in the other direction or look at the route from different camera angles. I can even sort of "zoom" into details about the environment which I didn't consciously notice before. It takes time to get into this point as I have rather bad memory for details. After a while I also tend to forget the details of the route again if I haven't activated that part of my memory. If I drive the same route after some months of not driving it then it can be very hard to remember how it actually goes (sort of anti-Dejavu) Is this kind of 3D visualization connected to Si? Perhaps Si-Ego types can do this kind of 3D visualization after driving some route once and not only after a zillion times. And perhaps they would be better at remembering the details even after a long time? What about Se-types? Can they do this?

Anyone can do that after travelling a route "a zillion times", and again, I would expect Se-ego types to have no difficulty with it at all, but then because of their strong Si, not strong Se.

Then I know that I tend to use my wife as a "map reader" because she is extremely good at remembering where to turn and so on. Remembering things like exact twists and turns of routes etc is so natural to her that she keeps on bitching to me about my memory as she can't accept it that I so easily forget those things. She blaims that there is nothing wrong with my memory in general (because I remember well details which interest me) and I am just too lazy to concentrate on the route and try to use her as a "detail storage and retrieval device" which annoys her. Is this how Si-dual seeking works? I just naturally expect her to offer me her services in storing and retrieving details for me? Expecting her to be my sort of personal database which I can query for information whenever I need to?

This sounds like one way how Si dual-seeking would work, yes.

[FDG]

That is very, very Interesting. I am the total opposite. I am at my best with a "bird's eye view" map in my head and with a general idea of where north, south etc are. I am terrible with things like "turn right when you see a red flag". If someone starts giving me directions of this sort, I immediately ask for a sort of map - or just for the address so I can dowload a map from the internet.

I used to think that looking at signs and physical reference points was connected to but now I think it may be more related to . Of course, ESTps, ESFps, ISTps and ISFps should have ease with both the "map" and the reference points.

If so, this would be another indications that you are of a Si>Se quadra - again, assuming that this is correct.

I use two modes: restricted spaces I do the way XoX explains, simply because it is harder to immediatly build an abstract map of a complex structure. However it is highly inefficient since objects occupy much more space than vectors (vectors being the "bird's eye" view).

Large spaces (hills, mountain roads, main city streets): first time I do it, if there is no map available, I go by "gut feeling". I am extremely BAD at rememberin the names of things: places, roads, anything. However, I can describe in detail how the road looks like, what's around the road, what kind of places you can see from a specific part of a road even if I have only been once. Repeated exposure to places can make me remember their names, but it is a rather long process.

[Slacker]

I'm very much like XoX. Especially the quoted part here. But my husband doesn't mind - he'd rather be in charge of directions anyway. I've gotten us lost in the past when I've told him I knew where someplace was. And I'll *think* I know how to get there but I'll have forgotten something, or I won't be able to concentrate and I'll forget to tell him when we're supposed to turn or something. I got us lost going to this Amish cheese shop, and my daughter actually thought the name of the shop was the "Bloody Cheese Shop" for ages because that's what he kept calling it as we were driving around, and as he was trying to access directions on the internet on his cell phone. But, of course, it was an *Amish* cheese shop so they didn't have a web site or even a phone number, and information was difficult to come by. The sad thing is that I'd been there before and I'd even driven, but my mom had always told me when to turn and everything and I guess it hadn't sunk in or something. I figured since I'd actually driven there I'd remember how to get there, but no.

XoX wrote:

Then I know that I tend to use my wife as a "map reader" because she is extremely good at remembering where to turn and so on. Remembering things like exact twists and turns of routes etc is so natural to her that she keeps on bitching to me about my memory as she can't accept it that I so easily forget those things. She blaims that there is nothing wrong with my memory in general (because I remember well details which interest me) and I am just too lazy to concentrate on the route and try to use her as a "detail storage and retrieval device" which annoys her. Is this how Si-dual seeking works? I just naturally expect her to offer me her services in storing and retrieving details for me? Expecting her to be my sort of personal database which I can query for information whenever I need to?

[Expat]

I am extremely BAD at rememberin the names of things: places, roads, anything. However, I can describe in detail how the road looks like, what's around the road, what kind of places you can see from a specific part of a road even if I have only been once. Repeated exposure to places can make me remember their names, but it is a rather long process.

Ha, I'm the precise opposite. When I have just moved into a new city (which has happened many times) I immediately catch the names of the main roads. It's even funny. An Se or Si type who lives there for some time will tell me, "to drive there, you go via bla-bla until you reach the main highway" and I ask, "main highway? You mean the X29?" "Uh, I guess, if you say so, no idea."

[anndelise]

My daughter used to have an awesome sense of direction when she was about 2-7yo.
No matter what part of town we were in, whether in the car driving, in some store, at some park, various places, I'd suddenly stop and ask her which way was home. She'd point in the direction home would lay "as the crow flies", never pointing back the way we had come. After she'd give her answer, I'd take note of "seattle is south, the mall is north of us" type bearing, and then I'd figure out where home would lie. My daughter was always correct.

Nowadays she takes a little more time to figure it out...still less than a minute, while it still takes me about a minute and a half to get my bearings and figure out the direction. I think it takes her longer now than before because I rarely ask the question anymore.

However, from 2yo to now, she's been able to tell me the directions for getting to a store, to home, to a friend's house, to a park, etc. Even years later. I remember at about 4 to 4 1/2yo, her sitter's parents were driving her home, they'd missed the freeway exit to getting to our house. But Manta, in her very poor language skills, told them to take the next exit, and then used her fingers to tell them how to get to our house from there. (that route was a very rare one for us to take). The family was very impressed, I was impressed too.

I think she remembers what objects are where, and then moves from object to object. As I drive, she'll mention something about a yard that's missing a tree, or how a house is a different color than it was (the color it was and then the color it is now).

I still use her as my map for when I have to go somewhere I don't normally go to.
Though she gets bugged out if I'm approaching someplace differently from the few ways we used to. (yet another path of objects to learn)

[anndelise]

How strange anndelise, my sister was exactly the same way at that age (according to my parents). She's still great at that.

Manta definitely does NOT know the best way to get there. But if she's traveled that way before, she'll take you on a route she's familiar with. In fact, she gets highly aggravated if I alter the path in any way. But by altering the path she learns a new way of getting there. It's just a battle every time. Maybe when she gets older, with enough paths under her belt, she'll be able to pick out a good route to take.

Recently she's taken an interest in maps. I think I'll mark off some of the common places we go to, friends' houses, stores, Richard's work, etc. So she can get a birds eye view of how places are in relation to other places. Then let her help me make our errand route for the day. That might help develop the skill in picking the best route to take. Thanks Diana.

[tcaudilllg]

I've prepared a list of the hidden agenda's various incarnations as I see them. I started with Sergie Ganin's descriptions and tweaked them based on their relevance to how the behaviors are perceived, with special emphasis on linguistic clarity.

Although the hidden agenda is rather simple, the unconscious hidden agenda that emerges from its pursuit makes its manifestation more complex. Below are the hidden agenda of the Information metabolism/information exertion types. (or to be more blunt, of the crosstypes)

ENTp, ESTp => to be loved or to be famous
INTj, INFj => to be healthy or positive
ESFj, ESTj => to be perfect or precise
ISFp, INFp => to understand
ENFj, ENTj => to be wealthy or strong
ISTj, ISFj => to believe or commit
ESFp, ENFp => to know or to communicate
INTp, ISTp => to love


- to be loved for health
- to be loved for perfection
- to be loved for understanding
- to be loved for strength
- to be loved for belief
- to be loved for knowledge
- to be loved for loving

- healthy fame
- healthy perfection
- healthy understanding
- healthy power
- healthy belief
- healthy knowledge or communication
- healthy love

- to be perfectly loved
- to have perfect health
- to have perfect understanding
- to possess perfect strength
- to possess perfect belief
- to have perfect knowledge
- to love perfectly

- to understand being loved
- to understand health
- to understand perfection
- to understand power
- to understand belief
- to understand knowledge
- to understand love

- to be powerfully loved
- to possess strength of health
- to be strongly accurate
- to possess strong understanding
- to possess strong belief
- to possess strong knowledge
- to possess strong love

- to commit to good health
- to believe in perfection
- to believe in understanding
- to believe in strength
- to believe one is loved
- to believe in knowledge or the need to communicate
- to believe in love

- to know fame
- to know health or to exchange health-related information
- to know perfection or to communicate perfectly
- to know understanding
- to know power or to transfer power
- to know commitment
- to know how to love

- to love being loved
- to love health
- to love perfection
- to love understanding
- to love power
- to love knowledge
- to love belief

[Joy]

Which type am I again? You know, you should post a list of forum members and their types in your theory. (I think most people will be wise enough to realize that their type in your theory doesn't correlate to their socionics type and better than their MBTI type does, so hopefully you wouldn't get attacked for your typings.)

[krieger]

Health comes close to describing what is; but I feel it still misses it's true essence.

is the force that strives for a situation that is free of uncertainty and strife. A world that is comfortable not only in the physical sense, but also in the psychological.

= knowledge employed towards creating psychological comfort

It seems to me that is an agent that looks at specific issues and identifies means of making them 'perfect', whereas integrates said perfection into a comfortable whole. The striving for perfection is inherent in both, and perfection is attained through their union.

*edit* scrap comfort; integrity is the word I was looking for.

[Joy]

Here are a few suggestions, some of them unchanged and some are too wordy at present. I'll revise the list as better suggestions come along.

ExTp: to be popular (to have a positive social standing? to be praised/complimated?)
IxFp: to understand (to be intellectual?)
ESxj: to be perfect or to not make mistakes/overlook anything (to be thorough? to be competent? to be prepared?)
INxj: to be physically comfortable/well (to be stable?)
ENxj: to have the power (wealth/status) to ensure that you'll always have everything you want/need (to be strong? to be unconstrained?)
ISxj: to be certain
ExFp: to be knowledgeable
IxTp: to have close relationships

[Joy]

Has anyone noticed that in a way the irrational types' hidden agendas are about having or being something, but the rational types' hidden agendas are about not having or doing something?

[UDP]

I can relate to that. Being physically well (even in terms of getting sleep) requires that I respect . So more insight may come from trying to understand HA via Leading Function.

But yes, in general, I am conscious of my body and physical well being.

[Joy]

I can relate to that. Being physically well (even in terms of getting sleep) requires that I respect . So more insight may come from trying to understand HA via Leading Function.

I thought of that with the ENxj one... to a large extent, ENTjs see wealth as power and ENFjs see status as power.

But yes, in general, I am conscious of my body and physical well being.

the hidden agenda is not supposed to be conscious

[Joy]

Do INxj's want to be comfortable/well so they don't have to worry about being powerful?

[anndelise]

the hidden agenda is not supposed to be conscious

there is a problem with that thought though
any person who takes the time to observe the things they've done in the past and the things they do now can notice that the majority of their goals seem to have something in common with each other...
an enfp who studies various topics (in college and/or out of college), who can't help but be looking for various tidbits of information that can be passed on to others if another person needs, who likes to "show off" what bits they know, who looks at their shelves full of odds and ends books, is going to notice that they seem to have some kind of deep desire for a knowledge base.

and finally knowing what that deep desire is can certainly help in developing efficiency in that pursuit
or drive the person crazy when they can't....seem....to.....stop.....them.....selves.. .. *purchases a book from Amazon*



*sighs in relief*

[Joy]

it was a joke

[anndelise]

so was mine


*returns to reading her new book*

[Exodus]

Fe: to be popular
Si: to be comfortable
Ne: to be imaginative
Ti: to understand
Se: to be strong-willed
Ni: to be foresighted
Te: to be knowledgeable
Fi: to be cared about

Joy, yours are remarkably similar to mine (I wrote them before looking at this thread). I think the having-not having thing
is just a coincidence of the wording.

I think I prefer "to be certain" to "to be foresighted". It's more general.

[UDP]

Do INxj's want to be comfortable/well so they don't have to worry about being powerful?

No.

I don't know if I could make you understand, in the same way you may have doubts about me understanding why I don't feel the way you do about power.


To me, power is simply irrelevant - in terms holding it over other people. My real battle has little to do with the power I yield over others.
However, I rise to power because of my own values.
I just don't seek power outrightly. I do not avoid it, or fear it.

Some INFjs I know seem to avoid it and fear it.


If anything, I enjoy being in control, as I can dictate more where things are headed, which would be more comfortable than having to react all the time. But that's just me.

[UDP]

Here - what I've done with XoX's thread may show a disregard for Si and Fe

But what really happened was I put Ti above everything else.
By 'worshiping" and respecting Ti, I can feel better about things. I am most comfortable that way. That isn't 'conscious' per se, but I'm realizing it to be exceedingly true for me.



Trying to achieve HA "directly" to me seems kind of weak, or pathetic (like when I try to relax or do things for fun, by my own choice)
Having others assist you with HA is nice
The best HA satisfaction comes when it is done via respecting leading function


- IME thus far

[Ms. Kensington]

I think for me, i think i experience Si HA as comfort in stability. You could say I seek stable or focused sensual experiences because it stresses me out to perceive many sensory stimuli of a broader nature.. its hard to describe. But if i take joy in one piece of art, for example, I feel comfort in the fact that the aesthetic value does not change, rather than having to take in each piece of art with my physical senses. It sort of explains it.

Edit: I was at an exhibit a few weekends ago, and there were wonderful details and many pieces in one room. I will linger there and register sometimes singular qualities in my mind so that it then becomes stable, something that can stay with me potentially forever. I dont live to be stimulated by different sensations but seek those that can be abstracted.

If you want to describe it in terms of possessions you could say Si HA is about being comfortable in knowing what you need rather than wanting to be prepared to get anything you need, since you dont know what you will need.

[Ms. Kensington]

If anything, I enjoy being in control, as I can dictate more where things are headed, which would be more comfortable than having to react all the time.

seems similar to this.

also i thought maybe joy was saying the same thing but from the point of Se, but I actually cant reconcile that with how i see Si HA. I do have feelings towards personal power as being irrelevant, but i think i look to Fe to remedy negative feelings toward power rather than Si.

[Joy]

What about "to be stable" for INxjs? It makes sense when you think about what their duals provide for them.

Fe: to be popular
Si: to be comfortable
Ne: to be imaginative
Ti: to understand
Se: to be strong-willed
Ni: to be foresighted
Te: to be knowledgeable
Fi: to be cared about

Joy, yours are remarkably similar to mine (I wrote them before looking at this thread). I think the having-not having thing
is just a coincidence of the wording.

I think I prefer "to be certain" to "to be foresighted". It's more general.

Yeah, I think "to be certain" is the best "to be" hidden agenda description, based on the ISxjs I've known. How about "to be strong" for ENxj? Something about it doesn't feel right... but I dunno.

I'm not sure that I see "to be imaginative" in ESxjs though. It's more like... "to be aware of possibilities"? Hard to say, I have a difficult time separating their HA from their PoLR.

[Exodus]

Edit: I was at an exhibit a few weekends ago, and there were wonderful details and many pieces in one room. I will linger there and register sometimes singular qualities in my mind so that it then becomes stable, something that can stay with me potentially forever.

I find this incredibly difficult. I have a pretty bad memory for sensory things, except after many repetitions.

If you want to describe it in terms of possessions you could say Si HA is about being comfortable in knowing what you need rather than wanting to be prepared to get anything you need, since you dont know what you will need.

In some strange way this makes sense.

[Exodus]

How about "to be strong" for ENxj? Something about it doesn't feel right... but I dunno.

Not sure, I don't know many ENjs. I have a hard time seeing Se in ENFjs at all.

I'm not sure that I see "to be imaginative" in ESxjs though. It's more like... "to be aware of possibilities"? Hard to say, I have a difficult time separating their HA from their PoLR.

Yeah, "to not overlook anything" or maybe "to have all the bases covered" is better.

!

"to see the whole picture"

That sounds right. But it has a lot of Ni in it.

[Joy]

Like I said, I have a hard time separating their HA from their PoLR.

[FDG]

Here are a few suggestions, some of them unchanged and some are too wordy at present. I'll revise the list as better suggestions come along.

ExTp: to be popular (to have a positive social standing? to be praised/complimated?)

I'm okay with this, as long as it doesn't clash with having close relationships, because I obviously want both. If I had to choose, I'd definitely sacrifice popularity for a romantic relationship I believe in.

[implied]

i think i'd like to be cared about by or have a close relationship with a strong willed person. good job, joy.

[raisonpure]

Rick's definition of Se works well enough for Se hidden agenda:

to "acquire qualities of a powerful person (not so much physical as psychological or spiritual")
Except I'd replace "powerful person" with "hero". It's amazing how far ENxjs can push themselves in the belief that they're saviors of the world, often at the expense of mental/physical health. A quote from Rabindranath Tagore -- most likely ENFj -- demonstrates this:

"So busy I used to be under the belief that I was indispensable, that I hardly dared to wink. My doctor now and again would warn me, saying: 'Stop, take it easy.' But I would reply: 'How will things go on if I stop?'."

His prayer from The Fruit-Gathering is also suggestive of Se hidden agenda:

"Let me not pray to be sheltered from dangers but to be fearless in facing them. Let me not beg for the stilling of my pain but for the heart to conquer it. Let me not look for allies in life's battlefield but to my own strength. Let me not crave in anxious fear to be saved but hope for the patience to win my freedom. Grant me that I may not be a coward, feeling your mercy in my success alone; but let me find the grasp of your hand in my failure."

My own additions:

"to withstand and overcome opposition through resolve and endurance"
For example, while I was struggling with my teacher the other day, I became so focused on my prey (his mobile phone) that I lost my sense of self and cared for nothing else. The why of the struggle didn't matter. The pain of his ridiculously long fingernails digging deep into my palms didn't matter. I didn't care if I looked like an animal, and gave no thought to the consequences of my actions. All that mattered was the here and now of revelling in struggle for the sake of pitting my strength against his, showing him that I won't let him to have power over me.

I didn't notice the cut in my palm until minutes later, when I noticed that a tissue I was holding was speckled with blood. I felt a strange sort of glee when I saw it, because it was a sign of having acquired a greater resistance to pain, and I was thrilled because it meant that I was getting my old feisty self back: the one who fought with her mother for years, refusing to buckle under pressure... The one who'd declare "I'll never give up!!!" as she chased her first crush throughout the school (yes, really -- elementary school was boring as hell, and since I didn't take to reading, it was the only game that was exciting enough to play for an extended period). After realizing how much I missed that buried aspect of myself, I started to consider taking lessons in Judo to train my endurance, even if it's very painful in the beginning (then again, this only gives greater incentive to get over my fear of pain)

"to feel alive through the experience of impact"
I see this as a compensation for shitty Si. Most of the time, I feel detached from my body, and when I go on ignoring it for too long, I start to feel like I'm going to dissolve into vapour or something like that. The only way I can feel like I'm in my body is through impact -- the striking of one body against another -- and Si types don't emanate sufficient force/solidity. I don't need gentle caresses; I need a firm grip to feel anchored to reality. Without the help of Se types, I can only satisfy this need to feel alive by: hugging people like I'm going to squeeze the life out of them, talking in a loud voice (it feels good to expel energy, somehow), kicking/punching walls when I'm bored, etc. Sometimes I entertain fantasies about getting into fights with people, but I haven't gotten to that stage... yet.

Not sure, I don't know many ENjs. I have a hard time seeing Se in ENFjs at all.

It's pretty easy to see the Se in Joan of Arc, for instance. I was reading a book about her the other day, and it was mentioned that she was rather bossy and prone to aggression? At least, she resorted to intimidation in her letters pretty often. It's funny how the ENxjs around me behave like thugs more than ESxps, showing off their capacity for violence at every opportunity. It's more unusual to see INFps flaunt the Se.

I don't approve of the whole thing about wealth and flashy cars, though. It reeks of a shallow concern with image -- the appearance of power -- rather than the real thing (why rely on those when you can let yourself shine through by acquiring a powerful presence of your own?)