Type and Hidden Agenda aka Activating 6th Function

[nobrainer]

@reniarbon: I don't think you answered his question. He was asking whether you've typed people who seem to have a different HA than they should have accoring to socionics.

Do you think so? Oh I see, it is that simple. Ok, the anwer is no.

[flower]

I have seen on a few occasions an ENTp (hidden agenda 'to be loved') do the 'pretend to be hurt' over some comments, so as to get the 'you know I love you really' treatment of which he draws it out as much as he can.

I have not seen other examples of the hidden agenda like this though, however, does the hidden agenda not often manifest itself in more invisable ways though, such as influencing someones decisions, so as to set up a situation whereby the hidden agenda can be satisfied? The influence of the HA on some decisions and the motive is unrecognised by others and usually by the person themselves.

I thought this was how hidden agenda usually manifestis itself, although hopefully someone else can confirm this or not and explain better.

[nobrainer]

I have seen on a few occasions an ENTp (hidden agenda 'to be loved') do the 'pretend to be hurt' over some comments, so as to get the 'you know I love you really' treatment of which he draws it out as much as he can.

I have not seen other examples of the hidden agenda like this though, however, does the hidden agenda not often manifest itself in more invisable ways though, such as influencing someones decisions, so as to set up a situation whereby the hidden agenda can be satisfied? The influence of the HA on some decisions and the motive is unrecognised by others and usually by the person themselves.

I thought this was how hidden agenda usually manifestis itself, although hopefully someone else can confirm this or not and explain better.

I can relate to what you've said. I have to add that unless you know someone's type 100% right and you know it's hidden agenda you may not notice it. Basically you cannot type someone by trying to figure their hidden agenda first. You can verify the accuracy of your typing with the knowledge of hidden agendas though.

[Ave]

I notice the hidden agenda within myself. Within others its pretty hard to tell.

[flower]

I agree with the last 2 posts completely. The effect of the hidden agenda is very subtle, and in others its hard to spot.

[Ave]

Hidden agendas are integral aspect of socionics that makes it interesting to alot of us. The idea that people will act in a way they cant yet predict because of a subconscious function fascinates people. Aerent we all driven by hidden motives, no matter how rational or self controlled we like to think we are?

Ganin wrote an article explaining hidden agendas and listing the agendas according to each type. The hidden agenda here is the accomplishment of the sixth function. The sixth function is unconscious but valued and thus infleuntial whether a person realize's it or not.

The same is true of the fifth function which could also be considered to cause a hidden agenda in people. According to socionics.com:

A slightly spaced out personality, a likable appearance and a defenceless grin make it easy for an INFp to merge into almost any social group.

However this appearance can change drastically once INFp gets a taste of power and authority. The power-money combination plays special role in INFp's Weltanschauung. It is like cheese for a mouse, who can smell its luring aroma miles away. Their fascination with $$$ and their intuitively intuitive intuition often walk hand by hand with a casino pass. In some cases an obsession with financial gain can lead INFps into arranged marriages. Despite their intuitive, fragile appearance, from a partner an INFp expects strong physical preponderance or domination. If such condition does not exist in the relationship, there is always plenty of "cheese" out there for an INFp.

Its seems obvious here INFPs have an related hidden agenda. It seems obvious also that each person has two hidden agendas. I've compiled a list of the types and their hidden agendas. Fell free to correct me, flame me, or to agree with my genius.

ENTp, INTj => To be loved, to be healthy
ISFp, ESFj => To be perfect, to understand
ENFj, INFP => To be wealthy, to understand
ISTj, ESTP => To be loved, to beleive
ESFP, ISFj => To know, to beleive
INTp, ENTj => To be wealthy, to love
ESTj, ISTp => To be perfect, to love
INFj, ENFp => To be healthy, to know

Ps: The best way to figue out a person's hidden motives is to observe their dual's conscious motives.

[Joy]

Hmmmm the dual seeking function?

I dunno, I want to be healthy, but it doesn't seem to affect my life much.

[Ave]

It doesnt seem being wealthy(or at least wanting to be :wink: ) affects my life much either, at least not visibly. But it is a "dual seeking" function so I imagine its gotta have some major impact whether you realize it or not.

Dual Seeking - this defines where you want to be and what you want to see.

I think that has rather major impact, at least it should in theory.

[Gilly]

I think your dual seeking function represents your long-term goals more than anything. Take me: I want the world to be truthful, equal, and harmonious, but it's not my hidden agenda, by any means. If anything, I'd say my personal "second" hidden agenda would be more akin to the INTp's "to love."

[Zeia]

ENTp, INTj => To be loved, to be healthy

Interesting enough, this fits me pretty good. But nearly ever human wants to be loved so I'm not sure about that one. However, Do any of you think that your subtype could affect your hidden agenda?

[Creepy-]

to understand - definately my hidden agenda.

to be wealthy - not my hidden agenda because I expect others to provide it for me.

At least that's my perspective.

@Zeia - it's been suggested that I'm subtype but even if I am is very much my hidden agenda.

[Ave]

Interesting -- but if the hidden agendas of the INFj are "to be healthy, to know" then they haven't hidden themselves very well in my case Both of those are open agendas of mine.

It seems that is the case with some people Ive observed. But thats another topic for discussion altogether.

to be wealthy - not my hidden agenda because I expect others to provide it for me.

At least that's my perspective.

The fifth function is the one you feel least responsible for. So you let others take care of it for you, and project your own desires related to that function into them.

You might be on to something interesting here. Perhaps the fifth function is not a hidden agenda that you want to accomplish for yourself, but expect your environment to reflect and that way, you can build your sixth function, your personal agenda, upon what others are giving you.

But then again, maybe you expect your environment to take care of your fifth function because you hope theyll show you how to use it yourself one day. Thats not an unlikely motive either.

Id like to get more people's opinions as to what they think of this. I could be wrong, but then again I could be right, and its worth discussing because it has to do with what drives people and how theyll react to certain situations.

[Angel von Himmel]

Your creative function is also you agenda, but it is not hidden and moves openly unlike the hidden agenda.

[Cone]

I think your dual seeking function represents your long-term goals more than anything. Take me: I want the world to be truthful, equal, and harmonious, but it's not my hidden agenda, by any means. If anything, I'd say my personal "second" hidden agenda would be more akin to the INTp's "to love."

Interesting point to make about that: Russian Socionics sees the IxTp's and ExTp's hidden agendas as swapped, so that you would be "to love" and I would be "to be loved". I am definitely inclined to believe that, simply because that's always been a problem for me, and that I thought I was initially ENTp based off of this.

[Angel von Himmel]

I think your dual seeking function represents your long-term goals more than anything. Take me: I want the world to be truthful, equal, and harmonious, but it's not my hidden agenda, by any means. If anything, I'd say my personal "second" hidden agenda would be more akin to the INTp's "to love."

Interesting point to make about that: Russian Socionics sees the IxTp's and ExTp's hidden agendas as swapped, so that you would be "to love" and I would be "to be loved". I am definitely inclined to believe that, simply because that's always been a problem for me, and that I thought I was initially ENTp based off of this.

Or maybe you are really an INFp who thinks he is INTp, but I doubt you are going to consider that ... that is what I think if you want my opinion.

[Cone]

I don't believe that hidden agendas are a single function characteristic. INxps I would see to have this hidden agenda, because they are the most distanced from the world.

[pezzonovante]

How does the sixth function manifest itself in people? Beyond being a desire that influences what you want in life, how is it used as a function? How will its use be different in people that are dualized vs non-dualized?

[FDG]

from time to time, i do things for other people to be appreciated by them

[Expat]

To put it bluntly, people very often look a bit pathetic or petulant - or both - when they use the sixth function.

It's the ENTj or ENFj trying to look assertive when using Se, but looking a bit nervous and insecure, very obviously so to Se types.

It's the ENTp or ESTp very obviously in attention-seeking behavior.

The ESFp or ENFp making a lot of notes and adding a lot of information into reports/presentations etc, information that is largely non-essential.

The ISFp or INFp deciding too quickly that they already understand a subject and no longer need any extra information, getting annoyed when you try to provide it to them.

The ISTp or INTp often staying in bad relationships.

The ESFj or ESTj trying too hard to be funny (can't think of a better manifestation now).

[anndelise]

Attempts at using one's 6th function seems to give off an illusion of having used one's 4th function. But those who have that 4th function in their ego positions recognize that it's NOT the product of the 4th function.

For example,
NeFi attempting to Te their Fi info....looks like they could possibly be an NeTi (to those who are NOT Ne w/ Ti).
NiFe attempting to Ti their Fe info....looks like they could possibly be an NiTe (to those who are NOT Ni w/ Te).
NeTi attempting to Fe their Ti info....looks like they could possibly be an NeFi (to those who are NOT Ne w/ Fi).
SeFi attempting to Te their Fi info....looks like they could possibly be an SeTi (to those who are NOT Se w/ Ti).

These are just a couple of the examples I've seen on this forum, both in people here typing other people, themselves, or other people's writings.

[pezzonovante]

Hmmm very interesting. So how can you distinguish when someone is using their HA function from their POLR? Also, does one's use of their HA function differ at all when they are dualized?

[Angel von Himmel]

When people who use the functions in their Super-Id they use them for purposes that are unknown to them without necessarily knowing how to control those functions, and in essence need the understanding and help of someone who has the functions in their Ego block to help them gain more control over them. Sort of like how passive-agressive people do not know how to be direct, so they do lots of things in ways that look odd and sneaky to others and often do not even know they are coming off angry and manipulative, because they are ignorant to that fact. The same thing with the Super-Id functions, people have no direct control over them and misuse them unknowingly.

[Angel von Himmel]

Hmmm very interesting. So how can you distinguish when someone is using their HA function from their POLR? Also, does one's use of their HA function differ at all when they are dualized?

The Super-Id functions and the Ego functions are majorly expressed and if the Id and Super-Ego functions are ever expressed it is only temporary, because it is not such an untaxing thing to just reverse like that. Plus, if it were really possible then they would just be displayed just like Ego and Super-Id functions, and that does not happen. Descriptions that describe how people act with their Id and Super-Ego block are simply describing adversely the effects of using the Ego and Super-Id functions in relationship to the Super-Ego and Id, and really have no power on their own.


As far as dualization is concerned the purpose is to strengthen ones ability to balance the Ego functions with the Super-Id functions, and also to learn to control those functions. Again, the key term here 'awareness' and not 'ignorance,' because a person who is not dualized is going to look rather ignorant now and again. On the other hand, someone who is dualized will have a natural idea of what awareness is and act appropiatelly in that.

[Exodus]

To put it bluntly, people very often look a bit pathetic or petulant - or both - when they use the sixth function.

It's the ENTj or ENFj trying to look assertive when using Se, but looking a bit nervous and insecure, very obviously so to Se types.

It's the ENTp or ESTp very obviously in attention-seeking behavior.

The ESFp or ENFp making a lot of notes and adding a lot of information into reports/presentations etc, information that is largely non-essential.

The ISFp or INFp deciding too quickly that they already understand a subject and no longer need any extra information, getting annoyed when you try to provide it to them.

The ISTp or INTp often staying in bad relationships.

The ESFj or ESTj trying too hard to be funny (can't think of a better manifestation now).

Hey, what about me?

[UDP]

Maybe LII?

When the LII does nothing, and just 'thinks', that is Si HA.


sometimes when I wake up, I find myself overloaded with thoughts, but I realize it is some sort of a means of my body trying to trick myself into staying in bed. Analyzing thoughts is "enjoyable", and actually related to from an LII standpoint.


That's a guess, but it might have something to do with it.


So an LII.... not doing anything, or not caring, being overtly lethargic, being content just in it's own mind.
(maybe?)

[Exodus]

Maybe LII?

When the LII does nothing, and just 'thinks', that is Si HA.

I think that's TiNe.

Hedonism is probably the biggest manifestation, IMO, and then sensory sensitivity.

[UDP]

OR

, and I think this might be it, it just came to me as I was about to shut down my computer:

For a long time, I've been 'trained' to be more happy and emotionally expressive than I really am, and whenever I allow myself to act that way, I regret it later.

Do any other LIIs know what I mean?


The Filatova description is, I realize, who I am at best. Now, I can be cold and distant but still social and leadership orientated.
But the habitual process makes me become more extroverted and socially flailing ....
So it almost seems like a trick to still remain 'yourself'

My most recent thread in alpha....
That might be HA.

When I get pumped up or into something, sometimes I try to be excited or funny about it, talking fast usually, and being 'funny'.
I realize, it is very odd for me, and I often end up looking 'pathetic', it generally does not feel like me either. It feels like I'm 'trying' to express happiness or something, but it really is not my bag. It's like, a moment where I think it is acceptable to act outside of my usual restraint, but .... it may end up feeling like that was a bad idea afterwards.


..... I am not sure if this here, or the post above, is more related to HA, so maybe someone else can disambiguate that.

[Exodus]

[quote="UDP III"]OR

, and I think this might be it, it just came to me as I was about to shut down my computer:

For a long time, I've been 'trained' to be more happy and emotionally expressive than I really am, and whenever I allow myself to act that way, I regret it later.

Do any other LIIs know what I mean?

[...]

When I get pumped up or into something, sometimes I try to be excited or funny about it, talking fast usually, and being 'funny'.
I realize, it is very odd for me, and I often end up looking 'pathetic', it generally does not feel like me either. It feels like I'm 'trying' to express happiness or something, but it really is not my bag. It's like, a moment where I think it is acceptable to act outside of my usual restraint, but .... it may end up feeling like that was a bad idea afterwards.

Fe?

Dual-seeking can be almost as pathetic sometimes...though it has greater potential for improvement.

[Expat]

Hey, what about me?

Ah, sorry.

I have observed indeed in INFjs (I don't know that many INTjs closely) a sort of inclination for being, uhm, "squeamish" about the idea of being in physical danger, or for being concerned about eating healthy food. It does sound like an stereotype, but I have indeed observed this, although it's not always obvious.

[FDG]

Hey, what about me?

Ah, sorry.

I have observed indeed in INFjs (I don't know that many INTjs closely) a sort of inclination for being, uhm, "squeamish" about the idea of being in physical danger, or for being concerned about eating healthy food. It does sound like an stereotype, but I have indeed observed this, although it's not always obvious.

yeah you know when i post cannibal corpse lyrics dealing with eating rotten bodies? INxjs seem to respond negatively.

[Expat]

Hmmm very interesting. So how can you distinguish when someone is using their HA function from their POLR? Also, does one's use of their HA function differ at all when they are dualized?

The HA is something you wish you were good at, but those who are "professionals" (ie the ego types of that function) clearly see that you are an "amateur". Essentially, the HA is something you try too hard at, never quite succeeding - but it's not something you try to do all the time.

The PoLR is something you don't wish you were good at - you wish others would stop giving so much importance to it. So when you do use it, you resent it and tend to go for "extremes" - either you use it as little as possible, or you go overboard. And, ideally, you use it as seldom as possible.

As for dualization -- I think you're less likely to make a fool of yourself using the HA when you're in the presence of someone with whom you have a dual relationship.

[Expat]

yeah you know when i post cannibal corpse lyrics dealing with eating rotten bodies? INxjs seem to respond negatively.

Very good example

[misutii]

The ISFp or INFp deciding too quickly that they already understand a subject and no longer need any extra information, getting annoyed when you try to provide it to them.

lol omg I'm so guilty of this! thanks, those descriptions definitely helped me put the hidden agenda into perspective

[snegledmaca]

The ISFp or INFp deciding too quickly that they already understand a subject and no longer need any extra information, getting annoyed when you try to provide it to them.

lol omg I'm so guilty of this! thanks, those descriptions definitely helped me put the hidden agenda into perspective

Same here.

[Slacker]

Hey, what about me?

Ah, sorry.

I have observed indeed in INFjs (I don't know that many INTjs closely) a sort of inclination for being, uhm, "squeamish" about the idea of being in physical danger, or for being concerned about eating healthy food. It does sound like an stereotype, but I have indeed observed this, although it's not always obvious.

The INFjs I know have serious issues of this type. Like the one across the street is constantly calling these bug exterminators even though it's a brand new house and she doesn't have any bugs. My sister is practically an OCD hand washer. And she's psycho about doing anything that might have any chance at all of being even remotely dangerous. This is IMO a good way of telling an ENFp from an INFj.

I probably do have issues with Te but not so much now that I'm married to someone with strong Te. It helps if it isn't your responsibility anymore.

[Expat]

I forgot this one --

It's the ISTj or ISFj taking some decisive action too quickly because they already "know" what's going to happen - or, on the contrary, taking no action until it's too late, for the same reason.

[Rocket]

The ESFj or ESTj trying too hard to be funny (can't think of a better manifestation now).

The two ESTJ i've known well at my work always seemed to promote to others the need for "design" "innovation", the need to introduce staff into the office with strong "conceptual skills". Ofcourse the implication being that this was extremely important for them and that they were somehow part of a "new wave" . I was taken in by the posturing both times (at least at first - no idea about Socionics back then) .... seemed very convincing to me ! ... however over a period of time you began to see the reality. [1] They NEVER produced anything innovative themselves. [2] They always hired people they felt would be submissive to them & [3] They ran operations under their control like sweatshops. Lots of Talk but very little Action

[Expat]

That's good --

The ESFj and the ESTj emphasizing the need to be innovative without presenting many new ideas of their own.

[eunice]

The INFjs I know have serious issues of this type. Like the one across the street is constantly calling these bug exterminators even though it's a brand new house and she doesn't have any bugs. My sister is practically an OCD hand washer. And she's psycho about doing anything that might have any chance at all of being even remotely dangerous. This is IMO a good way of telling an ENFp from an INFj.

I don't have such tendencies. Their actions sound kind of weird to me. It's more of a psychological disorder rather than a general rule of thumb to identify INFjs imo.

[Slacker]

Well maybe not to that extent, but I think a focus on Si that is a tad irrational, compared to a focus on Te that is a tad irrational, is a good way.