Leonardo Da Vinci

[Jarno]

What type is he? And why.

Paintings.
Leonardo da Vinci - Wikiquote.

[Park]

Good question.

[Ezra]

ILE. I think Ne base is fairly obvious, as he was the most inventive motherfucker who ever lived.

[munenori2]

Interesting. I was going to say ILE also. All I really was thinking though was Ne, alpha > delta, and ILE > LII. That's about the extent of my thought process.

[xixi]

Edison was also one of the great 'inventive motherfuckers', but he's widely believed to be LSE. So i don't think being inventive automatically means Ne ego...Also ENTp's inventiveness doesn't seem to come in the form of mechanical devices for practical use, but in theories about how things work (e.g. Einstein's theories).
If you look at de Vinci's drawings, they're highly detail-orientated, very 'literal', very S-heavy. He was particularly attentive to the small physical details of the things he studied.

Plus, if he was an ENTp-Ne (i.e. enhanced base function), he'd have had a round face, but he didn't. He had a very long face (hard to tell if oval or rectangular 'cos of his beard, but i'm guessing oval).

[FDG]

Mmm serious type, I'm pretty sure about this from reading his quotes and biography. LSE makes sense.

[pinkcanary]

...

[717495]

He's NT I think, unlike some inventor like edison (ST). I do agree with him being a serious type, which is why I wouldn't really think ILE, and go with LIE. In comparison to someone like tesla for instance, his brainstorming style seems a lot more Te. I've haven't looked into all his stuff though. He also seemed pretty optimistic and risk-taking with a fantastical bent, typical of a lot of LIEs.

Don't really know why I'm comparing him to some modern folk. Seems relevant.

[The Greeter]

I also think LSE.

[krieger]

If you look at de Vinci's drawings, they're highly detail-orientated, very 'literal', very S-heavy. He was particularly attentive to the small physical details of the things he studied.

Exactly. He is also explicitly said to avoid theoretical expositions in his scientific research. That alone makes the suggestion that he was ENTp very, very dubious.

The last discussion we had about his type also turned up that he had a nasty habit of procrastinating, which doesn't fit ESTj very well. In a "run and hide" approach to typing, we might be forced to entertain something like ISTp for as long as that doesn't unearth an irresolvable contradiction. His being stereotypically active and prolific points to an Extrovert type, though.

[krieger]

My message to any one who tries to type him, in conclusion, is that even if you end up calling him ENTp, it is very much wrong to call him a typical or unproblematic one.

[Beautiful sky]

What type is he? And why.

TJ- most likely ESTj

http://www.manchestergalleries.org/a...les400_300.jpg

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures...nci--26081.jpg

[Beautiful sky]

Exactly. He is also explicitly said to avoid theoretical expositions in his scientific research. That alone makes the suggestion that he was ENTp very, very dubious.

The last discussion we had about his type also turned up that he had a nasty habit of procrastinating, which doesn't fit ESTj very well. In a "run and hide" approach to typing, we might be forced to entertain something like ISTp for as long as that doesn't unearth an irresolvable contradiction. His being stereotypically active and prolific points to an Extrovert type, though.

ESTj's procrastinate and are very inventive...it says it here...

"The Administrator does not tolerate inferior quality. He likes integrity and uprightness in relations. The Humanist, as a rule, is an exceptionally honest and conscientious partner. He willingly processes great quantities of information, draws general conclusions and schedules actions. The Administrator sees planning as a problem. On the one hand, he is sometimes too impatient, on the other – he may be distracted by outside matters, procrastinating on important issues and failing to fulfill them in due time. He accepts this fact very painfully. He needs an undemanding regulator, a provident and prescient partner."

He's not ILE because they are not ambitious, with regards to monitary ambition, in their inventive and creative efforts; those inventions usually stay inside their heads and are not shared with anyone except for their mate...who they have fun in arts and crafts with.

[krieger]

ESTj's procrastinate and are very inventive...it says it here...

"The Administrator does not tolerate inferior quality. He likes integrity and uprightness in relations. The Humanist, as a rule, is an exceptionally honest and conscientious partner. He willingly processes great quantities of information, draws general conclusions and schedules actions. The Administrator sees planning as a problem. On the one hand, he is sometimes too impatient, on the other – he may be distracted by outside matters, procrastinating on important issues and failing to fulfill them in due time. He accepts this fact very painfully. He needs an undemanding regulator, a provident and prescient partner."

I initially assumed him to be ESTj, so this would make a lot of sense. What is the source of that quote?

[Beautiful sky]

I initially assumed him to be ESTj, so this would make a lot of sense. What is the source of that quote?

SOCIONICS: Personality Types and Relationships


Under intertype relations Director+Humanist section

Logical-sensory extravert
and
ethical-intuitive introvert

© From: V.Meged, A.Ovcharov. Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000.

The Administrator is very hard working; he rationally spends his time and does not like getting distracted by extraneous talk. He is very practical and economical. He strives to be competent in business issues, accumulating necessary information on problems interesting to him. He tends to take on too many responsibilities. So he needs The Humanist, which can suggest, which actions are most promising. The Humanist willingly helps in this work, doing it diligently and qualitatively.

The Administrator does not tolerate inferior quality. He likes integrity and uprightness in relations. The Humanist, as a rule, is an exceptionally honest and conscientious partner. He willingly processes great quantities of information, draws general conclusions and schedules actions. The Administrator sees planning as a problem. On the one hand, he is sometimes too impatient, on the other – he may be distracted by outside matters, procrastinating on important issues and failing to fulfill them in due time. He accepts this fact very painfully. He needs an undemanding regulator, a provident and prescient partner.

The second bright trait of The Administrator is his ability to take care of his family's welfare. He strives for a high standard of living. He demands quality and possesses well-developed esthetic taste. He is a kind of gourmet, likes tasty and healthy meals; parties for his close friends or family members organized by him are distinguished by very high taste. The Humanist is very reserved in communication. He is devoted to his narrow but stable circle of friends. He possesses 'clever hands' and interest in various technologies, culinary and medical recipes. While The Administrator creates comfort on a whole, his dual perfects all the details.

The Humanist is very attentive towards people, which is not applicable to his dual who is interested more in results of work and communication rather than in the very process. For this reason The Administrator, who is usually reserved and polite, may give way to irritation and wrath, especially when people take his precious time. At such moments he loses the feeling of tactfulness, may become blunt. He needs an ever-reserved, diplomatic and peaceful partner by his side. The Humanist softens ethical mistakes of his dual, performs peacemaking activities. By his persuasions he softens harsh behavior of the Administrator, appeals to his inborn nobility, magnanimity and conscience. By doing this, he facilitates communication with others. This helps The Administrator to keep stable the circle of his business partners.

The Humanist also foresees well the outcome of undertakings and relations. By his advice he helps his improvident dual to avoid many mistakes, the main of which is wishful thinking, especially about health and relations with people. He recognizes well the perspectives of new theories or technologies and he is among the first to struggle for their implementation.

The Administrator is conservative enough in his views, and without such support he tends to fall into routine, may even stop in his development, stagnate in everyday chores, or lose his spirituality, romantic feelings and interest towards intellectual novelties.

On the other hand, The Administrator is capable of thinking clearly and logically, of noticing what’s most important, of modernizing inefficient, outdated structures or technologies. He strives for higher quality and better outcome. The Humanist needs such a partner, who switches his attention from trivialities to more global undertakings. In addition, his dual attracts him as a protector and leader.

The Humanist is a very softhearted and sensitive person. His kindness if often misused by the others. By contrast, The Administrator is full of initiative, but does not like when others impose their own initiatives on him. He may show aggression, but hardly perceives aggression of the others. The Humanist, in spite of his indecisiveness, defends his own interests silently but impertinently, if he is sure of his being right. In practical affairs he is not very capable of protecting his interests, letting his more penetrative dual do it. He tolerates The Administrator's inability to praise, make compliments, which is caused by his insufficient understanding of individual traits and human potential capabilities. The Humanist understands this aspect and considers it to be so obvious that he does not require words of approval. He likes the integrity and hard work of his short-spoken dual.

This dual pair is characterized with certain reticence, isolation from other people, hard work, and attention to details and integrity in everything.

[krieger]

It's unexpected to see ESTjs being called a type that is typically prone to procrastination. How do we begin to explain such a thing in terms of the type's general properties? What function or dichotomy accounts for this tendency to procrastination?

[xerx]

I think, in this context, procrastinate just means to get carried away by an activity at the cost of another. And If I had to guess, I'd say process is a (the ?) responsible dichotomy.

[Beautiful sky]

It's unexpected to see ESTjs being called a type that is typically prone to procrastination. How do we begin to explain such a thing in terms of the type's general properties? What function or dichotomy accounts for this tendency to procrastination?

tries to look like and both love to procrastinate, this is probably due to their hedonistic tendencies; previously, Socionics did not consider human behavior traits into type; I have tried to tell that to Rick who constantly turns me away-this is due to his inability to see individual human characteristics and traits, which I have no problems doing. If they talked to me THEIR DUAL maybe they would start to integrate the human condition into such a rigid system they have built, this system has produced massive N self typings, which is highly inaccurate. Rick, himself an ESTj, refuses to accept such a fact about himself.

[krieger]

Which types don't procrastinate, in your views, and according to the materials you know about?

[Beautiful sky]

Which types don't procrastinate, in your views, and according to the materials you know about?

I don't. lol
There are many, I'm sure...many ESFp's have great amount of energy and so do their duals, to keep working enlessly or appropriately.

Define procrastination and let me see if you understand what the word means.

[krieger]

We have something really interesting going on here. This profile from socioniko.net says ESTjs are averse to procrastination, both in themselves and in others:

2. "All I do is done well". One more quotation: "There is a gift which is always characteristic of great baseball players and teams. This is onslaught. This is the capability to run more rapidly then one is required to, to move more quickly than one is required to, to be more impertinent than one is required to” (Ph.Brooks). Initiative is habitual to him; he is decisive, likes to be the center of attention. He defends his ideas with guts and fervor. In front of his superiors he is not shy, even becomes aggressive. He knows that business only then goes perfectly if the necessary tempo is set from the very beginning. He does not tolerate procrastination, is an ardent struggler for quality and thoroughness in all work. A good army officer. Like Thomas Edison, a representative of this type is capable of working 19.5 hours a day.

ESFjs are also described as approaching work in an unavoiding way:

2 Untiring. Always active, he is ever mixing with people, rushing to and from. He can easily switch from one task to another. He works very diligently. He does not prefer one errand to another, all should be accomplished whether interesting or not. This is not something to be discussed or analyzed; simply the work must be completed. He appears very self-assured and self-satisfied, as if succeeding without effort in all endeavors. It seems like he acts promptly and gets good results. However, he himself might not see it that way, so he greatly appreciates sincere compliments for his work.

[Beautiful sky]

We have something really interesting going on here. This profile from socioniko.net says ESTjs are averse to procrastination, both in themselves and in others:



ESFjs are also described as approaching work in an unavoiding way:

He does not tollerate procrastination in others, when he is ready to work. ESTj's have many hypocritical sides to them.

Define procrastination...and I will help you understand the root of it.

[krieger]

The contradicting descriptions are even from the same website.

I am inclined to believe the ones that I quoted. Procrastinating ESxj types just doesn't make any sense from a theoretical perspective.

[Beautiful sky]

The contradicting descriptions are even from the same website.

I am inclined to believe the ones that I quoted. Procrastinating ESxj types just doesn't make any sense from a theoretical perspective.

Define procrastination...and I will help you understand the root of it.

[krieger]

It's not an ambiguous term. Procrastinate means delay, postpone, particularly in relation to undesirable work. Even the dictionary doesn't have more than two entries on it:

–verb (used without object)
1.to defer action; delay: to procrastinate until an opportunity is lost.
–verb (used with object)
2.to put off till another day or time; defer; delay.

[Beautiful sky]

It's not an ambiguous term. Procrastinate means delay, postpone, particularly in relation to undesirable work. Even the dictionary doesn't have more than two entries on it:

–verb (used without object)
1.to defer action; delay: to procrastinate until an opportunity is lost.
–verb (used with object)
2.to put off till another day or time; defer; delay.

ESTj and ESFj can't weigh the opportunities of one against another as they relate to the future (read the entry I posted again). They need their dual in order to tell them which one is more important otherwise they waste a lot of time doing mondane things that don't produce any real return; part of this gridlock is also caused by too much work that appears out of no where and so the constant struggle to get things done here and now (they both live in the here and now as opposed to their duals who live in the past and in the future) creates a system where they don't procrastinate for today's actions but for the future. They can't see the big picture so that creates a problem about doing only specific minor tasks; they need us to tell them which picture has any significance; part of their dual seeking is to understand the big picture...they like to have help to look at the big picture. They do small very specific tasks well and delay the big ones because they don't know the value or the real porponents of them as they relate to time and opportunity of the big ones.

They both are very hard workers; hard working has nothing to do with procrastination. Some Russian translation to English did not use the right words to clairify the situation at hand.

Thank you for finding materials to clairify.

[xerx]

If we assume that both descriptions are right, then it could make sense in light of weak Ni. They're hard working (Te) but can't always prioritize what's important (Ni PoLR).

Like for example, they might decide to spend a day building a cabinet instead of doing their taxes that are due, because of the [wrong] perception that they'll accomplish their taxes on time.

ETA: What Maritsa33 said.

[Beautiful sky]

If we assume that both descriptions are right, then it could make sense in light of weak Ni. They're hard working (Te) but can't always prioritize what's important (Ni PoLR).

Like for example, they might decide to spend a day building a cabinet instead of doing their taxes that are due, because of the [wrong] perception that they'll accomplish their taxes on time.

ETA: What Maritsa33 said.

True; but ESTj's are more concerned for money as it takes priority to them because of quadra values and dual necessities (they manage my finances); and Alpha, who value money differently are more likely to take that approach...but even then, they try to over estimate their finances to not get in trouble later, but may not hurry to do the taxes on time.

[xerx]

I like to imagine an INTp IRS agent supervising them over the phone.

[xerx]

True; but ESTj's are more concerned for money as it takes priority to them because of quadra values and dual necessities; and Alpha, who value money differently are more likely to take that approach...but even then, they try to over estimate their finances to not get in trouble later, but may not hurry to do the taxes on time.

Sure, it was just a general example.

[Beautiful sky]

Yes, ILE. There are ILEs very good at drawing or sculpting, and most of all, Leonardo was raised in a painting studio.

The most striking difference between LSE and ILE (as between Edison and Da Vinci) is that LSEs activate in one field, while rarely if ever one can tell about an ILE that he has an "occupation". It's the total opposite.

Edison's inventions had a great impact, although they were an evolution in his business. Number of patents != greatest inventivity, but rather the capability of making use of them. I assume everyone knows already from the descriptions and observations that ILEs, while very prolific and ground-breaking, they're "stretched" on a large area of interests, and many of their inventions don't have practical applicability at the time + they don't use to have natural capability of profiting from them.

No, just because the science had no practicality at his time, it doesn't mean it comes from ILE. Edison was lucky to get his hands on technology from the person before him who figured out the physics behind the inventions...he wasn't the first to learn about those things you know. Einstein struck with one "career"...he was ENTp.

[Beautiful sky]

No, I typed him as ILI for more than I can remember. Not that an ILE is forbidden to keep one career, but they use to activate in far many fields.
Thanks for one more evidence in my support.

How do you type him as ILI? He gave his former wife a to do list because in his bio he wrote that he expected she would be a senser, make beds, clean the house, etc....why don't you read some more biographies about people; for the record, ILI are NOT messy and self uncaring, they are tidy and clean...and Einstein did not care about how his dress habit about never wearing socks effect how people saw him...please read some more bios.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

The contradicting descriptions are even from the same website.

I am inclined to believe the ones that I quoted. Procrastinating ESxj types just doesn't make any sense from a theoretical perspective.

Surely you can imagine that type descriptions don't cover everything.

In regards to procrastinating ESTFj's, i've known some pretty lazy ones, for instance some ESTj's who have been in same job for years and are pretty bomb-proof. Other ESTj who on Saturday would procrastinate over doing housework as just wanted to chill with his wife after working all week.

ESFj's who procrastinate by gossiping for long periods then putting the kettle on for drinks.

The thing that i've spotted - which sort of ties in with the description, is that when they want to do something - when they decide (for w/e reason) they don't tolerate others procrastinating, or lounging around etc.

I'd say not to take descriptions quite so literally - at least this works for me, and kinda makes sense when one remembers it's a collection of generalisations which can't encompass everything (assuming for a second that each type makes up 1/16th of the population, or just say a sizeable amount of people).

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Anyway, Da Vince - i'd kinda like to investigate the possibilty of ENFp.

[Beautiful sky]

I talked too much already about this in other threads, you might search. Her latest wife (Elsa) was almost surely an Fe+Si type, I think SEI, she was doing a lot of things for pleasure or to please him but he was very distant, was travelling and imo scorned her.
And where the hell was he uncaring? That was simply his eccentric style, he liked to be some sort of curious celebrity and that's all about it. Clearly he didn't like home and preferred the glamour of foreign places, unlike ILEs.

But again, I talked already a lot about him, about how he compared to Bohr (yeah he was truly ILE, actually, not ILI) and so on, so my discussion about Einstein ends here.

ELSA was an N type, she may have been the same type as he; you don't know VI and you havn't read anything about him...that's pretty OBVIOUS and you don't know the first thing about ILE's either or what they prefer in terms of travel, eccentricity, creative endeavors, etc...just claiming you are one that doesn't make you one.

[mu4]

I'm not sure what type Leonardo is but there are some misconceptions here. I do think he could be a type.

Edison is called a great inventor but he's really just a great businessman who also took inventions from people like Tesla. Tesla is far greater a inventor then Edison.

Also to say that ILE are not detailed oriented is false, they are detailed to a extreme, the only way for something to be invented is to make it work and that requires details which other people would otherwise overlook. However, because a ILE's focus on details it pointed towards their interests, it's hard for them to be detailed outside their interests, which can be many and varied.

As far as Einstein.

Einstein was not merely a scientist, he was active in religious and political discourse, the civil rights movement and philosophical areas of study.

He published over 150 non-scientific works as well as 300 scientific works.

Also he is unlikely a ILI, he had many problems completing his University education for the lack of ability to conform to his professors demands. He was incapable of doing the work as required by his professors and thus was only able to attain a teaching degree.

. . . I worked most of the time in the physical laboratory [at the Polytechnic Institute of Zürich], fascinated by the direct contact with experience. The balance of the time I used in the main in order to study at home the works of Kirchoff, Helmholtz, Hertz, etc. . . . In [physics], however, I soon learned to scent out that which was able to lead to fundamentals and to turn aside from everything else, from the multitude of things which clutter up the mind and divert it from the essential. The hitch in this was, of course, the fact that one had to cram all this stuff into one's mind for the examinations, whether one liked it or not. This coercion had such a deterring effect [upon me] that, after I had passed the final examination, I found the consideration of any scientific problems distasteful to me for an entire year. In justice I must add, moreover, that in Switzerland we had to suffer far less under such coercion, which smothers every truly scientific impulse, than is the case in many another locality. There were altogether only two examinations; aside from these, one could just about do as one pleased. This was especially the case if one had a friend, as did I, who attended the lectures regularly and who worked over their content conscientiously. This gave one freedom in the choice of pursuits until a few months before the examination, a freedom which I enjoyed to a great extent and have gladly taken into the bargain the bad conscience connected with it as by far the lesser evil. It is, in fact, nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry; for this delicate little plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need of freedom; without this it goes to wreck and ruin without fail. It is a very grave mistake to think that the enjoyment of seeing and searching can be promoted by means of coercion and a sense of duty. To the contrary, I believe it would be possible to rob even a healthy beast of prey of its voraciousness, if it were possible, with the aid of a whip, to force the beast to devour continuously, even when not hungry, especially if the food, handed out under such coercion, were to be selected accordingly.

This is a very common view and criticism of schooling by ILE's.
Another major thing is that he has a nose for high potential content within his area of interest, which is another quality of .

Much of a ILE's single-mindedness is a focus on one's interests, while being unable to control their coming and going. Often the mundane drudgery that exists via the demands of others will cause a great deal of dissatisfaction which can lead this type to abandon their work or fail in satisfying the needs of other in pursuit of their own understanding.

Largely modern education is incompatible with ILE mentality. ILI are not like this so much.

[Beautiful sky]

#hkkmr

"Also he is unlikely a ILI, he had many problems completing his University education for the lack of ability to conform to his professors demands. He was incapable of doing the work as required by his professors and thus was only able to attain a teaching degree."


Wrong.
ILI are very compliant.
It's ILE that are very stubborn and challenging, like myself.
That shows me how very little you actually know of either type; maybe, because I told you that you are neither.

[mu4]

#hkkmr

"Also he is unlikely a ILI, he had many problems completing his University education for the lack of ability to conform to his professors demands. He was incapable of doing the work as required by his professors and thus was only able to attain a teaching degree."


Wrong.
ILI are very compliant.
It's ILE that are very stubborn and challenging, like myself.
That shows me how very little you actually know of either type; maybe, because I told you that you are neither.

Seriously? This is what I said! ILE's are stubborn and challenging just like me. I'm a terribly stubborn and challenging person. Anyone that's ever met me here knows that.

[Beautiful sky]

Seriously? This is what I said! ILE's are stubborn and challenging just like me. I'm a terribly stubborn and challenging person. Anyone that's ever met me here knows that.

ILI...this is why Einstein can NOT be ILI>>> Did you not read any of plynex's postings?

1."Imagination directs me". He possesses a powerful, intellectual imagination. A representative of this type, Honoré de Balzac, in his series of novels, The Human Comedy "painted" the portraits of more than 2000 people who appear hyper real: "he is comparable perhaps only to the city controller's office" —wrote of him Andre Maurois. Similarly, the phantasmagoric world of Gabriel García Marquez is impressively precise in every detail. Due to this quality The Critic can forecast the future quite well. From empirical observations of how a man acts at various times he creates something like a functional model in his mind. In general, he tends to know everything in advance. If he did not have to warn other people about possible dangers (opportunities interest him less), he most possibly would feel himself redundant.

2."A priest's calmness and restraint". He almost never expresses emotions and protects from them his family and friends. He sincerely believes that passions, too strong, will lead one to his doom. Honoré de Balzac has constantly demonstrated throughout his literary works how passion spreads like a devastating cancer that eats away the souls of men until it finally suppresses all else. This holds totally true in the case of his dual (Caesar, The Politician), a hyperactive person that easily gets carried away.

3.A profound analyst. He is convinced that living is impossible if one disregards the natural laws that regulate the world. One who ignores reality is heading for disaster. The Criticist believes that it is better to be somewhat too cynical then be a hypocrite. Hearing of a situation, he very soon thoroughly understands it and begins to tell to the bewildered interlocutor the details and aspects that the latter had overlooked. His analysis is devoid of any self-encouragement. "You shouldn't have a different attitude towards life than you have for the kitchen—the same amount of stinking odor; if you want to cook a dish, you'll have to get your hands dirty, just make sure you'll be able to wash the dirt off once you are done; that's the entire moral of our day and age."— (commitment)So speaks Vautrin, a hero of Balzac's books. Such misanthropy can kill the anybody's spirits, except his dual (The Politician)!

4."First and foremost, he is kind". In spite of all his "negativism", he is really a very kindly person in nature. The above phrase about Honoré de Balzac belongs to George Sand who knew him very well. He likes strong people who know their way in life, who demand concessions: such people release him from the necessity to invent goals, while using methods invented by him (he is a master of inventing methods.) He is capable of pouring a bucket of cold water out on the head of an enthusiast. But on the other hand, he is likewise capable of easing one's despair, when they are unlucky, when things go the wrong way, when destiny seems to be hostile.

5.Unapproachable and thus desired. A girl-student by the name of Laima (The Politician) gave a good description of this type when she tried to describe the hero of her dreams: "He must be handsome and smart, with big and sad eyes, not talkative. He does not tell compliments, and by that he creates an impression of his inapproachability. He is taunted by myriads of problems, which, in my opinion are nothing to be bothered with. I am attracted by his sadness, seriousness, so I try to amuse him, to raise his spirits, to make him happy. If such a boy is present at a party, I wouldn't be bored." This is a vivid description of this personality type, who is constant in his feelings, does not like adventures, and desires total dependence of his demanding partner.

[mu4]

ILI...this is why Einstein can NOT be ILI>>> Did you not read any of plynex's postings?

Can you not understand me. Is there some sort of mental block that's keeping you from understanding me?

I don't think Einstein is ILI.

What is wrong with you?