The Pill and Depo-Provera don't kill a fertilized egg, it prevents you from ovulating. Entirely different can of worms.Originally Posted by discojoe
ProChoice
ProLife
indifferent
The Pill and Depo-Provera don't kill a fertilized egg, it prevents you from ovulating. Entirely different can of worms.
Last edited by Wynch; 06-27-2008 at 03:51 AM.
ILE
7w8 so/sp
Very busy with work. Only kind of around.
bump
+ tagged
I strongly believe that Jxrtes is hilariously sarcastic.
Also, I dislike abortion, but I don't think it should be banned.
The end is nigh
I used to be adamantly pro-life, but switched to pro-choice somewhere down the road. I still think there should be restrictions like abortions only allowed during the first trimester, but not the second and third trimester. I'm not really a fan of abortion though, I probably wouldn't do it if I was a woman, but it's not my business what women decide to do with their bodies.
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
Ne-IEE
6w7 sp/sx
6w7-9w1-4w5
„Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
– Arthur Schopenhauer
I'm pro-life but I am against legislation that mandates that viewpoint, as I am against any "moral" legislation. You cannot legislate morality, you cannot point a gun at everyone's head and say "be a good person or I shoot you" and expect any good to come of it. Hell, doing that just makes matters worse. Wire coat hanger abortions done in a dark alley filled with garbage that result in infection are the inevitable result of a legal ban on the practice. Just like how methanol poison "bathtub gin" was the inevitable result of prohibition.
Anyone seeking to "purify" the public through legislation is a lunatic. You'll only make things worse, so stop fucking trying to go this route. Ban weed and they grow it in their basements. Ban guns and there would be a sudden rise in the stocks of plumbing suppliers (Pipes and springs+a few power tools=guns). Ban booze and people start brewing batches of it in their bathtubs. You get the point. The only way to stop shit like that is through culture. You must make it a sin in the common conscience to do such things. Passing a law when the culture doesn't fully condemn the behavior will only push it underground and make everything far worse than it was before the laws were passed. That's why people who crusade for such things piss me off. They're either dumb as hell or they're completely missing the point.
The only moral legislation that works are the laws banning stealing, killing, and raping. Which are, when you think about it, simply enforcing property rights. Anything beyond that will not end well, I guarantee it.
This is pretty much where I stand too. I was zealously pro-life in my teens until I understood the reasons women might need to make that hard choice. I am pretty sure women who do choose an abortion don't take it lightly and it is probably psychologically and physically distressing to find yourself in a situation where there are no other options.
I have said many times that I don't see many pro-lifers offering up any good options, as they hold up their signs. Perhaps if someone feels so strongly about another person's choices (a person they don't even know or really care about) they can offer to take care of one child through college instead of just trying to shame a person who does not want to be in those circumstances. The problem is they don't care about the individual as much as they care about their ideation of a potential life. The majority of pro-lifers live in a religious bubble.
I am sure there are people who offer to help support a woman if she chose to have the child but those are usually family members who end up formally, or informally, adopting the child.
I think adoption is a valid alternative for some people but I could not give a part of me away to strangers. If you have a good supportive family willing to help that would be the best choice. If they are dysfunctional you probably don't want to bring a child into that. Depending on the level of dysfunction.
I think abortion in the first month would be something preferable for many women. The not knowing what became of that child would be worse for me. They could end up in a abusive situation or worse. That would haunt me more than an abortion would. I imagine they could end up in some kind of indentured servitude with some foster family. Too many horror stories.
Why is it so hard to see that women who have abortions can be be pro-life with choice.
Although, maybe it should be legal to abort some living adults who are clueless and have more compassion for an embryo than another living, breathing, human but that would fall under a mercy killing . :/
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
thank you. if they care so much why don't they try to apply their energies to helping women who find themselves in this position or do something constructive rather than just being hate spewing bitches.
pro-choice because it's impossible for me to anticipate all the circumstances that make abortion a necessity and i don't really care to make people's moral decisions for them.
prochoice and free pregnancy tests for everyone
The poll is closed, but...
A person is a person, no matter how small...
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
forcing girls and women to gestate is unethical.
encouraging young girls in trouble to kill their babies is unethical.
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
Pro-choice
Pregnancy is a big deal, and having a child is an even bigger deal. If someone feels they must have an abortion, carry to term and give the baby up for adoption, or keep the baby depending on what they believe is best in their opinion in their siuation, that is their responsibility and their right.
Also, I agree w what End wrote above about legislating morality.
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra
What is your view on the ethicality of killing other animals and vegetables, and eternal torture?encouraging young girls in trouble to kill their babies is unethical.
This is an old thread - iAnnAu wrote this in 2008. So her child is at least 9 now, or even much older. I have never been faced with such a choice but I can imagine how panic and fear, mixed with strident wrong advice from those who do not have to suffer the consequences of such a choice - would make a woman choose to have her baby killed. iAnn must have had supportive and good advice, a safe environment, or some sort of help to help her make this generous choice that she does not regret (to have GIVEN life, vs. ended life). I am intrigued by her comment, "...I actually enjoyed the experience of bearing a child!"
Not me, not at all. There are a lot of moral things that should be law. I bet as a Mom you could think of some pretty quick!
That it seems unethical to compare that to this devastating choice some woman face?
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
Hardly. I consider it a reasonable escalation considering what you brand unethical and ethical.
Like I said, I agree w @End's post -- he (she?) covered pretty much what I also believe.
Have you read the book Boundaries, by Henry Cloud and something Townsend, @Eliza Thomason? It's written from a Christian perspective but imo is mostly good, practical stuff. I thought of it here bc imo the kind of morals you and some others want to write into law oversteps the boundaries of what a government should do imo. (The book makes no mention of abortion, etc; it just popped to mind, so I referenced it.)
Armenia as a culture is prochoice. That's how I've been raised that it's not necessarily a sin or a bad thing to terminate a pregnancy especially in cases where there's very little means of providing for the children that one brings to the world and in case of illnesses. Like an Armenian woman wouldn't think twice about terminating a pregnancy where she knew for certain that her child would be born with downs. That being said I think it's irresponsible to abandon children that are born prematurely developed or with disorders like down and cerebral palsy. My mom is Ultra Armenian Orthodox Christian so I have that half but my dad's family have English Protestant views largely inherited from my grandmother's side.
Given all of this if I got pregnant I would have the child. If I got raped by some unholy act and savagery I would terminate that pregnancy in a heart beat because it didn't come from a good feeling a holy place and someone who I felt love for. I couldn't live with that choice.
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
@sapphire I'm a dude and proud of it. I sympathize with Eliza pretty hard but this is probably where quadra differences and intertype relations come into play. As an ILI I only care about the final result. Mycries out, and boy do I NOT want certain things to happen. I'm rather cold in my calculations, and also rather blunt in my assessment of situations. End of the day, I'll coldly sacrifice someone I don't know to save someone I do. I'm not a total asshole though, ILI's don't like the "overt" leadership roles because we don't like to have these calls traced back to us directly (because that only amplifies the
pain felt by any failure, by us especially). We leave that to the LIE's, SEE's, and SLE's who are more comfortable in the spotlight. We'll accept the spotlight if push comes to shove, but we'll be damn sure to let everyone know that we will make decisions that'll piss someone off and, frankly, we don't give a fuck. We warned you, we do not care about your feels. Though, ironically, your tears will wound us on a very deep level. We saw them coming, we made the call, but that doesn't make it hurt any less than it really does (though you will not ever see or hear us admit this publicly).
The LIE is your stereotypical CEO, the ILI is your stereotypical "Grand Vizier" advisor to the CEO. They both basically have the same amount of power if they play their cards right, but ultimately they call the shots. Everyone seems to want to be that person, few comprehend the burden that such figures must bear... The same can be said of their duals. The SEE is in the spotlight, but the ILI makes damn sure to make that spotlight highlight them in the very best ways. Likewise, the ESI makes sure the LIE has all his appointments scheduled in the best order. We wouldn't want the CEO to be in a volatile state when meeting with X so it's best X see him right after lunch at his favorite restaurant. That always cools him down so much that you could utter a racial slur against him and he wouldn't pick up on it. That's why the company's making bank!
Last edited by End; 05-04-2016 at 06:19 AM.
I love that book. Its excellent. In fact I just skimmed that book again a couple weeks ago just before I lent it to a friend who really needs it. I love the part where the woman is complaining to Townsend, after much counseling and successful boundary work in her life, about this other person in her life who hasn't told him about yet, who keeps overstepping her boundaries, borrowing money and not paying it back and all these other clear boundary over-stepping things, and he says, "What! Why haven't you told me about her? Who is this?" and she says, "Its me."Yes, he makes a good case for the different areas of boundary-overstepping. I don't remeber the law-making one.
Actually as to stuff being written into law, that is not something I have not expressed thoughts on here. But as to the point I was making about moral laws to you - strangers molesting children is one thing we all find immoral, that's one I thought you would think of easily. And perverts who molest or rape their own children should be jailed...
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
The book doesn't reference the law as far as I remember, but I thought of boundaries in general -- such as the US Constitution calls for bt church and state, and such as (as End points out) make the most sense.I love that book. Its excellent. In fact I just skimmed that book again a couple weeks ago just before I lent it to a friend who really needs it. I love the part where the woman is complaining to Townsend, after much counseling and successful boundary work in her life, about this other person in her life who hasn't told him about yet, who keeps overstepping her boundaries, borrowing money and not paying it back and all these other clear boundary over-stepping things, and he says, "What! Why haven't you told me about her? Who is this?" and she says, "Its me."
Of course I think child molestation should be illegal...basically I was trying to be lazy (efficient?) by just directing you to End's post above where he discusses this. Child molestation, rape, kidnapping, torture, theft, murder, etc should be illegal bc in committing them a perpetrator violates the boundaries (or property rights, as @End calls them) of another person. It's like how one person's right to swing a fist ends where another's face begins.Actually as to stuff being written into law, that is not something I have not expressed thoughts on here. But as to the point I was making about moral laws to you - strangers molesting children is one thing we all find immoral, that's one I thought you would think of easily. And perverts who molest or rape their own children should be jailed...
Abortion is different, imo. At least in the beginning of pregnancy, the bundle of cells and later developing fetus is not yet a person w feelings or consciousness. On the other hand, the mother is a person w rights, and it is imo her right and responsibility to do what she believes is best for herself, her potential baby, etc. Her personhood cannot be questioned, while the potential baby's can (at least in the beginning of pregnancy), and she should not be restricted by law. (Many anti-abortion people say a fetus can feel pain beginning around 20 weeks. First, this is controversial in itself. Second, imo abortion should not be performed in the second half of pregnancy unless medically recommended/necessary due to risk to the mother, fetus, or both... if you abort a fetus at e.g. 34 weeks, imo it is far enough along to probably feel pain and have some sort of burgeoning consciousness.)
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra
Wow, this ol' chestnut.
Don't have sex, then there is not need for an abortion. If you want to be risky about it, use contraceptives. Problem solved.
I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.
I haven't read much of this thread but on the subject of abortion, I never did and wouldn't, couldn't - I myself would rather die or would have been willing to be a single parent.
I know in some situations with the information available today on the health of the fetus etc this could be such a difficult decision and I would never want to be placed in that position.
Pregnancy for me occurred at a young age and I am so very proud of this child who is now an adult, his life was, is and always shall be valued extremely highly by me.
I was pregnant at 16 and didn't have an abortion. I don't think that makes me a more caring or moral person at all, and I don't see what it has to do with the abortion debate or how it applies to other people and their unique situations.
good luck expecting this to ever take hold. people aren't the sims.
let alone all the occurrences of rape, contraceptives not working, etc.
This is one of the reasons why it is not so black and white. I believe a responsible person would have further testing if some abnormality is found in routine tests. If testing showed a child would have severe, painful, physical and mental disabilities, (that would lead to short life of suffering anyway), perhaps breathing would be horribly painful for them, isn't it more compassionate not to bring the child into the world? I know some people believe they are good people for devoting their life to a child like that but if they knew for certain that the child would have these problems would it be selfish for them to have the child, so they can feel like they are a good person doing the right thing? The line is very blurry sometimes when it comes to thinking you are doing the right thing and being selfish. :/
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
According to the bible, a fetus is not considered equivalent to a post-birth individual: to kill a fetus was not even considered murder. In addition, killing babies less than a month old was not considered murder either.
Augustine and Aquinas also believed that abortion in the early stages of gestation was not murder, although they were opposed to it.
In my view, abortions are not desirable, and if I was able to have abortions, I would be heavily inclined against it, at least if the baby had reached quickening (I would partly have concerns about the effect on my own health of such a procedure). However, I do not think it can be defensible to say that an adult cannot have autonomy over their own body. I also think abortion must be legal because the effect of illegal abortions would otherwise be intolerable.
You have said before that no humanist can be anti-gay. Do you not think that being pro-abortion pro-choice is anti-humanist?
Last edited by Not A Communist Shill; 05-05-2016 at 07:20 PM. Reason: changing an unfortunate choice of words
Not to nitpick, but surely you mean pro-choice, and not "pro-abortion." (I think it's an important rhetorical distinction, and one I don't want to see anti-abortion people pick up and run w.)
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra
yes, correct, I did mean that. I cannot say I really consider "pro-choice" an optimal description however!
Yeah...what alternative do you prefer? (sounds like sarcasm, I think, when I type it, but I really am asking
Personally, I'm bothered by the term "pro-life," but I get where they're coming from
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra
No offense to men, who have no vested interest in a full term pregnancy, but your opinion does not weigh as heavy to me. UNLESS you are willing to adopt or take care of one underprivileged child through college. It gets a bit hypocritical at some point if you are pro-life and don't do anything to insure one child stays alive long enough to fend for themselves.
I don't know how many people are aware of this but black infants (and white if they are born to drug addicts) can lay in hospital cribs for months waiting for placement. I became aware while visiting someone who was having a baby. I noticed some babies with no visitors and they would cry but no one picked the up. The nurses explained the problem with these babies to me. This was when I was in my early 20s. It affected me so deeply that I used to volunteer to hold them so they would have some human contact. The nurses do not have time to give these babies the affection they desperately need during those early months. I only did it for a short time before it was too much for me. This is what happens when women wait too long to make a decision one way or another or their brains are so messed up from drugs that they don't even care. Some women try to clean themselves up for the baby but it takes years sometimes for them to get the child back. By that time a lot of the damage, from lack of human contact, has been done and the child has been floated from one foster home to another because foster parents can't deal with a child who has issues that started in the womb and caused by a drug addicted mother. Not all children have severe problems but enough of them that it should be a concern for all humanists of any quadra.
@Subteigh I don't think either terms are correct. One is specifically anti-abortion but does not make them pro-life since they can be pro-life and want to fry some child molester. A lot of people who wave signs at clinics will also be there to wave signs for the death penalty. The other one is just for-choice when it comes to their bodies and families.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Just how many births are accounted for via rape do you think?
I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.
no idea, so i googled-
Estimates of the numbers of pregnancies from rape vary widely.[8][9] Recent estimate suggest that rape conception happens between 25,000 and 32,000 times each year in the U.S. In a 1996 three-year longitudinal study of 4,000 American women, physician Melisa Holmes estimated from data from her study that forced sexual intercourse causes over 32,000 pregnancies in the United States each year.[10] Physician Felicia H. Stewart and economist James Trussell estimated that the 333,000 assaults and rapes reported in the US in 1998 caused about 25,000 pregnancies, and up to 22,000 of those pregnancies could have been prevented by prompt medical treatment, such as emergency contraception.[11]
A 1996 study of 34 cases of rape-related pregnancy estimated that in the United States, the pregnancy rate is 5.0% per rape among victims of reproductive age (aged 12 to 45).[10][12] A 1987 study also found a 5% pregnancy rate from rape among 18- to 24-year-old college students in the US.[13] A 2005 study placed the rape-related pregnancy rate at around 3–5%.[14]
A study of Ethiopian adolescents who reported being raped found that 17% subsequently became pregnant,[15] and rape crisis centres in Mexico reported the figure the rate of pregnancy from rape at 15–18%.[16] Estimates of rape-related pregnancy rates may be inaccurate since the crime is under-reported, resulting in some pregnancies from rape not being recorded as such,[14] or alternately, social pressure may mean some rapes are not reported if no pregnancy results.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_from_rape
Great info @lungs.
Even if it were only 1000 or 100 or even just 10 women who were impregnated during rapes, so what? Should those women be forced to carry and deliver those babies, just because relatively few women are impregnated as a result of rape? That's monstrous. If a woman chooses to bear her rapist's child, that's fine, but if she is forced to against her will it's like she's being raped in a whole other way as well.
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra
I can't stand the thought of a woman being impregnated during rape. It's monstrous, gross and to bare a pregnancy where the child is 50% him is disgusting and I would just end my life if I were forced to do that.
You would want to assume some strange form of dominance and control if you have a child by a rapist
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Solution: women take the pill until they are ready to have a baby.
I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.
Huh, is this your solution to preventing pregnancy due to the a potential risk of being raped during one's reproductive years? That could be 40 years (my grandmother had my mom in her 50s) of a woman's life ingesting artificial hormones and increasing risks for all kinds of health problems. It might lead to some interesting mutations in the human population over a a generation or so.
Maybe we could chemically castrate all boys/men until they PROVE they will never rape or coerce a female into getting pregnant? It would not only protect young girls but also insure that no woman will ever trick them into getting them pregnant. If a man (not a rapist) wants a guarantee that they will never get a woman pregnant (including their wife if they don't want children) then there are steps they can take to insure it as well. Don't have sex. Don't even put yourself in a situation that could lead to sex. Become a eunuch. GOT-like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_coercion
Sounds crazy right?
Not all women can safely take the pill and who wants to live life in anticipation of running across a rapist... That is no way to live. Why would, say, a virgin who does not believe in birth control want to take the pill? Why would nuns want to take the pill? They are not even allowed to. Virgins and nuns get raped too. :/ Although most nuns would have the baby but I bet some wouldn't.
When do they start, age 10-12? Just in case they get raped? I don't think you know much about the pill so I am not going to give you too hard of time. Even if girls age 10-12+ started taking the pill to prevent pregnancy from an unforeseen rape, they would need a break from it every few years.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
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