ProChoice vs ProLife

[dbmmama]

Adoption. Argument over.

+10

[discojoe]

First, I hate all of you.

Second, this is an easy question and you should all be put to death for not also having an easy time with it.

This is simply a matter of there being an ambiguous cut-off point between when a baby is a baby and when it is a cell cluster. Just because there isn't a definite point that can be empirically demonstrated does not mean that it isn't obvious at certain subjective points when the cell cluster is a cell cluster and when the baby is a baby.

It's just like legal driving age. Just because there isn't a definite point when everyone is "mature" enough to drive does not mean that a set legal limit on the minimum age required to get a license is some arbitrary thing concocted for zero legitimate reasons. You still keep "most" of the immature kids from driving by setting it to 16.

So, should women be allowed to remove a parasite (cell cluster) from their bodies? Yes. Should they be allowed to reach this parasite-free state by murdering a baby? No.

Pick a trimester and ban abortions after it. Problem solved.

If you're going to have an abortion you should do it before it becomes blatantly evil.

And if you're going to complain that the cells might have souls or some shit, shut the fuck up.

[jessica129]

Jesus christ, who really and truely cares about this? This topic is always beaten to death just because people like something to argue about. No one is going to agree with each other so what's the point. Why anyone should care what another human being does with their body is beyond me. It's their choice, who cares. Lock this topic.

[jessica129]

All I know is that unless you're the father of the unborn child, it's none of your business. Why should anyone care what some random woman does with her body? Are you going to raise the kid? No. If you actually do care, perhaps it's time to focus on your own life and your own problems. There are bigger and better things to worry about.

[dbmmama]

All I know is that unless you're the father of the unborn child, it's none of your business. Why should anyone care what some random woman does with her body? Are you going to raise the kid? No. If you actually do care, perhaps it's time to focus on your own life and your own problems. There are bigger and better things to worry about.

sometimes people have strong opinions on certain things because they do hit home in their own lives for one reason or another....

[jessica129]

But it's their life, not yours. No one has a right to tell someone they're wrong for choosing abortion.

[dbmmama]

But it's their life, not yours. No one has a right to tell someone they're wrong for choosing abortion.

i agree. that's not what i meant. i only meant to point out WHY some people have strong opinions on certain things. not that i agree with them...

[dbmmama]

i agree. that's not what i meant. i only meant to point out WHY some people have strong opinions on certain things. not that i agree with them...

to me, this is similar to what happened in the ENFj and doubts thread. i'm not mad at scarlettlux for having her own opinion about me. everyone is entitled to their opinion and to voice it whether anyone else agrees with it or not.

i'm more curious as to the whys of what she said and have been contemplating those rather than any "hurtbutt" i felt at first. if i only focused on my own personal feelings about the interaction or opinion of another, i wouldn't learn anything new that might shed light on how and what might actually be going on....

to me, this is the same with any opinion on any matter...including this one on abortion. it has nothing to do with agreeing or not agreeing, but opening my mind to learn and see things from many perspectives, even when i "thought" i had my mind made up, there is and will always be "more" to any issue than what we judge to be.

[discojoe]

But it's their life, not yours. No one has a right to tell someone they're wrong for choosing abortion.

It's not "their" life. It's the baby's life. Moron.

[jessica129]

She created it, she can get rid of it. If my mother chooses to kill me, so be it.

[discojoe]

She created it, she can get rid of it. If my mother chooses to kill me, so be it.

Then what's wrong with killing the baby after it's born?

[dbmmama]

Then what's wrong with killing the baby after it's born?

really. lol

[jessica129]

I hate this topic.

[Wynch]

I think we should create artificial wombs where we inject DNA extractions from only the smartest and most psychologically sound individuals and then sterilize the entire population. Problem solved.

[discojoe]

I hate this topic.

Of course you do.

Anyway, let me just reiterate my point.

Abortion is fine as long as it is done before a certain point. I don't know precisely when that point is, but it is still justified regardless.

Pro Life moron: But even that "cell cluster" will become a human, and you're denying it life by aborting it.

discojoe: Yes, but you can only believe that if you also think that birth control is immoral, because one of those sperm could very well become a human, and you're denying it life by preventing it from having a chance. The point is that you can't equate a potential with a present. However, it is still wrong to abort the baby after say, the third trimester, the rough point after which the cell cluster becomes a "real" baby.

Pro choice tard: BUT IT'S MY BODY ARGRGAGRAGRARG!!!!!!!!!!

discojoe: Yes, and you should have had the abortion during those six months when it wasn't murder to do so.

See, what I'm saying isn't so much that the woman should not be allowed to "get rid" of the parasite if she wants (she can always punch herself in the stomach a few times). I understand the sentiment of it being "your body" and that no one should be able to "make you" do anything with it that you don't want, and that's why I support abortion before the third trimester or whatever. However, I don't think doctors should be legally permitted to perform a procedure that kills an innocent human (not potentially human, but fully human) life that "starts" after the third trimester.

If you disagree with me, you are wrong.

[Mediator Kam]

2nd trimester? More like 1st bro. At the 20th week, it can make many motions associated with normal human behavior, such as sucking a thumb, yawning, stretching, and making faces.

http://www.webmd.com/content/tools/1..._fetal_dev.htm

[discojoe]

2nd trimester? More like 1st bro. At the 20th week, it can make many motions associated with normal human behavior, such as sucking a thumb, yawning, stretching, and making faces.

http://www.webmd.com/content/tools/1..._fetal_dev.htm

Sure, at whatever point the fetus becomes a person.

[Mediator Kam]

my neighbor's cat does all of that. i think you'd need more criteria to draw a line.

I would also look down upon aborting a cat at their equivalent of 20 weeks.

[Wynch]

I would keep that cat fetus you aborted and sell it to the National Inquirer.

[Mediator Kam]

lol.

[Rubicon]

Are you sure you're ISFj, discojoe?

[jason_m]

I'm generally pro-life for two reasons: 1) We cannot tell if we are ending a human life or not, so why take the chance? Is going through pregnancy worse than possibly ending someone's life? If you don't want the baby, you can have it adopted, and select a good family yourself. However, if we are talking about abortion in the very early stages, though, it becomes very ambiguous as to whether or not it is a human being, and you could easily argue that it doesn't have any of the features that a baby has, so it isn't, and abortion might be okay.

2) In the later-stages, when it very much resembles a human being, I am completely against it. The inconvenience of having a baby should not be put ahead of someone's life.

Jason

[discojoe]

Are you sure you're ISFj, discojoe?

MAYBE.

[MysticSonic]

HEEEEEERE THEY COME!


CLICKETY-CLACK,

D
O
W
N

T
H
E

T
R
A
C
K
S
!

IT'S LOTS & LOTS OF TRAINS!

TWO OF THE GREATEST TRAIN VIDEOS WE'VE EVER OFFERED! AND NOW THROUGH THIS SPECIAL TV OFFER, YOU GET TWO FOR THE PRICE OF ONE!


YOU GET BIG TRAINS,

LITTLE TRAINS,

STEAM TRAINS,

DIESEL, FREIGHT AND PASSENGER TRAINS,

EVEN TRAINS THAT BLOW THROUGH SNOW!

OLD TRAINS,
[img]"http://i4.luelinks.net/i/n/f3a2c323c30b48a82e52542973548c5a/oldtrain.jpg[/img]
NEW TRAINS,

FAST TRAINS,

SLLLLLOOOOOOOWWWWW TRAINS,

SSSSSSSSSMOKIN' TRAINS!


EVEN TRAINS FROM
AROUND THE WORLD!

+PLUS+

TOY TRAINS,

TROLLEY TRAINS,

AND MUCH MUCH MORE!


WHEN YOU ORDER


LOTS & LOTS OF TRAINS!


HEEEEEEAR THE WHISTLE BLOW!

FEEEEEEL THE HEAT!

SMEEEEELL THE SMOKE!

AS THESE TITANS OF THE TRACKS THUNDER ON BY!

KIDS LOVE 'EM TOO!

YOU'LL LOVE LOTS & LOTS OF TRAINS! AND REMEMBER, THIS SPECTACULAR TWO-TAPE SET IS NOT AVAILABLE IN STORES![/b

SO HOP ON BOARD AND GET TWO GRRRREAT TAPES FOR <b>ONE
GRRRREAT PRICE!

GET LOTS & LOTS OF TRAINS!


SATISFACTION. GUARANTEED!

[discojoe]

Why is everyone so averse to having this debate? I find it very entertaining.

[Mea]

maybe because it's a waste of time since it goes nowhere?

[discojoe]

maybe because it's a waste of time since it goes nowhere?

Someone needs to debate these issues, though. Nothing is so important that it can just sit there, untouched. And I think I took a pretty good swing at "solving" it, too.

[Wynch]

Ok then, discojoe, here's the reality of the issue:

Making abortions illegal only encourages back-alley operations that are extremely dangerous for the women involved. I'm prolife, I think there are very few circumstances in which an abortion is acceptable, and most abortions that occur do not fall into that category. But the social reality is such that making abortions illegal is not going to eliminate abortions (just like prohibition doesn't eliminate drinking, and making drugs illegal doesn't stop people from doing drugs). What needs to happen is a focus on social programs oriented towards informing pregnant women of all the options available to them. Additionally, women (and men) need to be properly informed about the repercussions of abortion, because most women who have abortions deeply regret having done so and are left with a lot of guilt. I think this has something to do with the hormonal balance involved in pregnancy, but I'm not sure. It's basically postpartum depression, sans child.

[discojoe]

Making abortions illegal only encourages back-alley operations that are extremely dangerous for the women involved. I'm prolife, I think there are very few circumstances in which an abortion is acceptable, and most abortions that occur do not fall into that category. But the social reality is such that making abortions illegal is not going to eliminate abortions (just like prohibition doesn't eliminate drinking, and making drugs illegal doesn't stop people from doing drugs). What needs to happen is a focus on social programs oriented towards informing pregnant women of all the options available to them. Additionally, women (and men) need to be properly informed about the repercussions of abortion, because most women who have abortions deeply regret having done so and are left with a lot of guilt. I think this has something to do with the hormonal balance involved in pregnancy, but I'm not sure. It's basically postpartum depression, sans child.

My response is that if you want to kill the baby after the legal period, then it should be at risk to the mother in some grungy back alley. That's what you get for committing murder. I hope you've read my argument and do know I'm not talking about all abortion.

[Wynch]

Yes, I'm familiar with your argument and I agree with you to a point, but the legal issue is where do you draw the line?

[discojoe]

Yes, I'm familiar with your argument and I agree with you to a point, but the legal issue is where do you draw the line?

I already explained this. It's the same principal of age limits on things like driving, voting, and drinking. Even though we can't know what the precise cutoff point is, that doesn't make it arbitrary to pick a point that at least keeps most of the bad out. Pick a trimester and ban any abortions after it.

[Wynch]

Unfortunately the nature of the issue is different than that of driving, where people are making judgments based on one's maturity. Also, in political debate, regardless of logical reasoning, it will always be easier to argue the status quo unless a change has been (more or less) universally agreed upon. Effecting change requires solid reasoning on all areas otherwise it does not stand under scrutiny and the status quo. You either need to convince everyone that the status quo is entirely shit or you need to convince people that your solution will solve all problems. There isn't much of a grey area.

[discojoe]

No, it is about maturity. It's about mature the fetus is. That's the whole point, and that's why the analogy works.

[dbmmama]

No, it is about maturity. It's about mature the fetus is. That's the whole point, and that's why the analogy works.

if you're gonna talk maturity, then, the moment of conception is when "maturity" begins, whether it "looks" like a baby or not, it still is a human being. before that, it is not. there is a separate sperm and egg, only potential for the maturation process to begin. to me, that is the cutoff place.

are you gonna change your mind based on my view? probably not. am i going to change my mind based on your view? probably not. that's all from me on this.

[discojoe]

if you're gonna talk maturity, then, the moment of conception is when "maturity" begins, whether it "looks" like a baby or not, it still is a human being. before that, it is not. there is a separate sperm and egg, only potential for the maturation process to begin. to me, that is the cutoff place.

Is a brain-dead body a human?

[dbmmama]

Is a brain-dead body a human?

i've done my fair share of arguing with many people on a lot of subjects for too many years now. time for me to move on. have a goodun.

[Wynch]

Is a brain-dead body a human?

A brain-dead body lacks the potential to mature.

[Mediator Kam]

A brain-dead body lacks the potential to mature.

It is also a human. I doubt you would call your deceased anything else.

[Mediator Kam]

I'd consider adding a line like this to my will: My corpse can be used disrespectfully, if that somehow spares my living daughter 9 months of misery.

I'm too slow bro. Don't get it.

[discojoe]

A brain-dead body lacks the potential to mature.

A sperm and an egg that haven't joined also have potential to mature. Is birth control wrong?