Originally Posted by Joy
If individuals can....EVERYONE can. I'm satisfied. I'm an individual, you are an individual, everyone who's eyes connect with yours....is an individual. Your cherished loved one's are individuals. If it's possible for one, as you've said it is, it's possible for all souls. That's how you balance the equation. That's what the balanced equation looks like.
there will not come a time when everyone is intersted in self-actualization
Again, if it's possible for one individual it's possible for all. You are holding on to something. I don't know what it is. But you don't want to allow for the balanced equation to be defined as....a world of actualized humans. To you a balanced world is one in which everyone is always struggling to be something. To you a balanced world is what we have now. You don't want to allow for humanity to experience the balance that you DO allow for ONE individual to experience. What is up with that?
if it was up to me, I would say "yeah, let's do it!"... but then what would become of free will?
Is there free will?
/opensupacanofworms
That's the thing Joy. Everyone is freeeeeee. OMG sooooo free. They are choosing all that feels good, because they are actualized.
My post.That's the thing Joy. Everyone is freeeeeee. OMG sooooo free. They are choosing all that feels good, because they are actualized.
ummm so we're all already self-actualized? Then what's the point of this thread.
that, uh, we must free text into the online atmosphere! or something...
FREE THE TEXT!
Sounds like something my dad said not long ago. He said something like, "My whole life I've been fighting against parts of my personality that I thought were weaknesses. Finally, I just had to realize, God made me this way, and God doesn't make mistakes. So now I have to figure out why I am this way, and how I can use this as a benefit instead of a weakness."
-------
Diana
I meant, actualized people have free choice.ummm so we're all already self-actualized? Then what's the point of this thread.
Why would you suppose they didn't?
You had implied that I was not allowing the population of the world to be self-actualized... I was pointing out that I do not have that power.
I see what you mean. But that is not what I was implying. You were saying it was impossible for humanity to experience such a feat. You were using words like impossible and "absolutely not" to tell me that such an experience cannot happen in terms of humanity. You said that the human experience of actualization would always be only for the minority of humans. You were using the logic of cause and effect and you had the concept of an equation being balanced only if it involved the complexity of struggle. Humans are complex and struggle to keep in balance themselves. Right? That is your view?
I was saying that if one human is able to break that barrier it is possible for all. You were saying that is impossible. I didn't understand why you were holding on to your idea that humanity has to struggle. There has to be cause and effect to the degree of large scale struggle. Struggle for the case of this discussion being, a desire to *be something else* for the society who is placing those expectation. Just to re-iterate, I posted this earlier.
The degree to which any one person could rise above the shame, fear, guilt, anger, mistrust, is different. Individuals may wallow in that state moreso than others. But there is more hope in me, than there is a sense limitation. I hope people raised in such an environment would choose the state of pleasure versus the state of pain. And I hope the people doing the raising would also maintain their level of self-actualization. That is how I imagine actualization in terms of society. It can take hold all of humanity. I don't see why not. The loop of cause and effect is still there. We just *cause* different *effects.* An actualized human would have a different effect on things/people/the world. Multiply the number of actualized humans and the effect is a society that looks different from the one we have today.People would make the right choices if they lived in a society that encouraged their talents/skills and didn't demand them to be something. If and when they would experience the WRONG choice (in the early years), they would immediately recognize the disconnect. It would be a.....OH SHIT! moment. There would be shame....fear....guilt...etc. etc. BUT, As long as they are coaxed back to a state of balance by other actualized folks....alll should flow nicely. The shame, fear, guilt, experienced wouldn't be something pleasant. They would seek to return to their pleasant state of balance.
And we would all dance on rainbows and blow kisses to one another.
Even a "self-actualized" person has human nature to deal with. We will always make mistakes. You make it sound like we can create some sort of utopia on earth by eliminating all expectations that "society" puts on us. Bullcrap. Expectations are good. Expectations drive us to acheive, to accomplish, to reach beyond what we thought we were capable of reaching.
Ideally we should be able to create our own expectations and push ourselves to acheive, without any outside influence. Not very many people actually do that however. How many kids would go to school if they didn't have to? How many people if they had no influence from society to be any certain way would choose to be a good, noble person? A person can be actualized and also be evil. Changing society to be more and more accepting would not eliminate problems, it would just eliminate standards, which would lead to more chaos, and less "self-actualization."
Are you an ENFp?
Sorry, it's me Diana, forgot to sign it. Hope I didn't come across as too harsh there.
The yogis would say it is our attachment to people places things outcomes etc that causes pain and misery. If we let go of our attachments then we can reach nirvana. So it does not matter whether there is scarcity or not.
Besides, look at our culture; there's hardly scarcity.
Yes, I agree.
Not very many people actually do that however.Our school system is full of horrid expectations. No wonder many kids wouldn't want to go if they had the choice.How many kids would go to school if they didn't have to?
You didn't read what I said carefully. They DO DO DO have influence from society. I said self-actualized people would coax each other and the younger generation to make choices that create in them a pleasant experience.How many people if they had no influence from society to be any certain way would choose to be a good, noble person?
The degree to which someone is self-actualized in different. The degree to which they are able to maintain/choose their pleasant state is varies from individual to individual. True. My hope is that if one person can achieve that control, then we alllllllll can.A person can be actualized and also be evil.
I'm not suggesting changing society. I'm suggesting that it IS possible for all individuals to experience in themselves a state of self-actualization. A multitude of such people would be causing effects on the each othe creating a society different to ours.Changing society to be more and more accepting would not eliminate problems, it would just eliminate standards, which would lead to more chaos, and less "self-actualization."
Diana, I've been suspecting it for a while, you are an ENFp.
I don't care if people attack me for this assertion.
.
I wont do that here. I want to keep this thread open to the topic. I still want to hear what Joy has to say. I'll tell you through another medium!
Just because a person is self-actualized doesn't mean that the person knows what is best for others. We each have our own perspectives. A self-actualized parent or teacher may still attempt to influence a child to be something he or she is not without realizing it.self-actualized people would coax each other and the younger generation to make choices that create in them a pleasant experience.
My point is that "good" and "bad" would not exist but for eachother... you've mentioned the matrix... do you remember how Smith became "unplugged"? The emergence of Neo, the most powerful force to that point, would have created an imbalance if not for Smith becoming unplugged. On a smaller scale, in our lives we cannot experience pleasure without pain, happiness without sadness, or love without hate. Back on a global scale, there will always be healthy people and there will always be unhealthy people. That is the nature of the universe.
In addition, let's say we were able to somehow create a society of self-actualized people... let's say that a few generations in, I'm born. I don't want to be healthy. What will you do with me? And I haven't even gotten started on the whole issue of mental illness....
I agree. This is true. This is why we have the mechanism of pleasure pain. The cause and effect. If someone is attempting to influence a child in a particularly bias way...the implications will be experienced felt immediately by the two people and by the whole of the society. I imagine a hypersensitive experience. Pleasure will be noticed in the body. Pain will be noticed in the body. Self-actualized people are aware of their intentions, actions, reactions...etc. etc.
YES! YES! YES! It is exactly this mechanism that makes any of what I'm saying plausible. Self-actualized people choose the experience of pleasure many more times in life than the experience of pain. Imagine People who choose this experience in multitudes...who's to say what would happen. The possibilities I imagine would entail beauty and laughter and fun and drink and food and sweat and toil and co-operation. The experience of pleasure/pain is only there for as long as you need it. It isn't something we HAVE to keep implementing to experience life's glory. Don't be so attached to pain. It's more of a mechanism than an experience in it of itself.My point is that "good" and "bad" would not exist but for eachother... you've mentioned the matrix... do you remember how Smith became "unplugged"? The emergence of Neo, the most powerful force to that point, would have created an imbalance if not for Smith becoming unplugged. On a smaller scale, in our lives we cannot experience pleasure without pain, happiness without sadness, or love without hate.
You haven't convinced me that the nature of the universe must have healthy and unhealthy people or it will collapse. There is variation in human morality, and I've accounted for that. I agree with you there. But within that variation there is a wealth of experience to be had.Back on a global scale, there will always be healthy people and there will always be unhealthy people. That is the nature of the universe.
You will choose that experience and it will create for you much unpleasantness. It might bring others down from their current state of self-actualization. You'll have backers, supporters of your desires/state of being...and take all the resources from us and kill us all. Damn you Joy! Damn you Joy!!In addition, let's say we were able to somehow create a society of self-actualized people... let's say that a few generations in, I'm born. I don't want to be healthy. What will you do with me? And I haven't even gotten started on the whole issue of mental illness....
What the hell??? Don't tell me I'm just some INFp hippie who doesn't know what she's talking about!! I actually thought my last post was on target.
Pain is not an "experience to be had," it's a mechanism. What do people think of this idea?
Maybe some people need to have a concept of struggle/pain to feel/enjoy life. And I need to have the concept of pain/pleasure as nothing more than a mechanism, to enjoy/feel life.
sorry, I forgot about this thread
Pain is a lot of things... EVERYTHING is a lot of things!
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote