Phaedrus as an IEI

[BLauritson]

I think things like pedantry and pointing out inconsistencies is highly overrated in ILI profiles (or at least the ones Phaedrus quotes, where they come from I don't know, nor do I much care). Like Joy says, IP temperament is the "relaxed, go with the flow" temperament. That and I can't see that I'd keep my SEE friends for long if I constantly, proactively started pointing out inconsistencies in what they say, for example. I might make the occasional joke about it but it's not something I place any importance on. Thinking about it, I think I'd get annoyed if someone went around correcting what I said all the time. Not that I'm trying to convince Phaedrus either way on this (since I know how futile that is) but just something I felt like saying.

[FDG]

I think things like pedantry and pointing out inconsistencies is highly overrated in ILI profiles (or at least the ones Phaedrus quotes, where they come from I don't know, nor do I much care). Like Joy says, IP temperament is the "relaxed, go with the flow" temperament. That and I can't see that I'd keep my SEE friends for long if I constantly, proactively started pointing out inconsistencies in what they say, for example. I might make the occasional joke about it but it's not something I place any importance on. Thinking about it, I think I'd get annoyed if someone went around correcting what I said all the time. Not that I'm trying to convince Phaedrus either way on this (since I know how futile that is) but just something I felt like saying.

From my experience, ILIs can be pedantic and detail-oriented in their work - whatever their field of choice may be -, which generally doesn't translate to pedantry in their daily life behavior.

[Joy]

From what I've seen, ILI's are more critical in a "that won't work" or "that isn't a good idea" way (as opposed to more of a "that's incorrect" or "you're wrong" kind of way). I think Toby from The Office is a good example of an ILI. He's probably more "go with the flow" than most people ILI's are, but the character demonstrates the type and style of criticisms you'd hear from an ILI. I think Robin from One Piece is another good example of an ILI. She's less critical than Toby (but then again, she has fewer reasons to be critical ), more "bookish", and more morbid (at least that's what the other characters on the show call her observations).

If I think of any other examples I'll post them.

[Cudcat]

[/crapjoke]

[Joy]

Lol

[Ezra]

He is a natural sceptic who points out every contradiction and every imperfection he can find in the world. He is not in balance, and he doesn't know how to control his mood. He is often unpleasant and grunting, a person whose emotions affect others.

He is also a person whose pedantry and perfectionism make it difficult for him to bring what he has started to an end. He tends to hesitate, and he dislikes new endeavours. He does not like to hurry, is a lazybone. He is distrustful of people. He can be stubborn if he is convinced that he is right about the facts. He dislikes compliments and prefers to talk about weaknesses. He is difficult to persuade or pressure to do something.

Writing a description of supposed ILI (how would a Fe PoLR individual's emotions affect others?) neither indicates nor points away from your being an ILI. Yet again you've proven how ineffective you are at answering the question at hand. Diplomacy and a way with words is normally associated with, hmmm, what temperament? Oh yes, NF.

[Joy]

Diplomacy and a way with words

?

[Ezra]

?

As an Eight, Joy, you should know what I'm talking about.

[Phaedrus]

Diplomacy and a way with words is normally associated with, hmmm, what temperament? Oh yes, NF.

How could I miss that!? I have yet to meet a person that is more diplomatic than I am, but that will probably never happen.

[Ezra]

They may point those things out, but they'd tend to do it in a more indirect/non-confrontational way than other temperaments would. "Going with the flow" is, after all, the opposite of making waves/rocking the boat/whatever. This is the most laid back temperament we're talking about here, and Se is one of their weakest functions. ILI's are one of the least "in your face" types.

There's a difference between 'going with the flow' and one's external energy being inconspicuous.

I was just wondering if you think phaedrus has these qualities. Cause if he does, this forum has sure had an interesting response to him.

I think he does. He knows how to twist things to his advantage.

in short, these are wrong associations. IP temperament is not about "not rocking the boat." SEIs and IEIs may want to "not rock the boat" in order to maintain a comfortable emotional atmosphere (obviously this is more stereotypically associated with SEIs.)

however, i interpret temperaments to be much more about lifestyle; in the case of ILIs, the lifestyle is determined by Ni. largely it means inaction, contemplation, and extensive mental activity. however, with Se and Te as quadra values, "not rocking the boat" -- at least with regards to intellectual matters, which the ILI cares about -- is not something an ILI would need to shy away from.

similarly, low focus on Se is not about lack of confidence in confrontation over ideologically oriented discussions. an ILI will not be confident about physical confrontation, but intellectual confrontation is not necessarily something that an ILI would shy away from. this is probably a characteristic that varies by individual; it would make perfect sense for an ILI to keep everything in his head and never say anything to anyone, but it also makes perfect sense to have an ILI who is intellectually active with respect to other people. i'd fall into the latter category (i don't know whether you think i'm more likely ESI or not; so i don't want to dwell on my own experience entirely, but know that it does control the bulk of my perceptions of the way Ni and creative Te are manifest.)

This is all good. And for a minute there, I thought Phaedrus was writing this, in which case we mighht have actually gotten somewhere. Alas, it's you niffweed, and it merely serves to show that you know your stuff.

[aestrivex]

From what I've seen, ILI's are more critical in a "that won't work" or "that isn't a good idea" way (as opposed to more of a "that's incorrect" or "you're wrong" kind of way).

why do you see the latter as being incompatible with ILI?

[Joy]

They may point those things out, but they'd tend to do it in a more indirect/non-confrontational way than other temperaments would. "Going with the flow" is, after all, the opposite of making waves/rocking the boat/whatever. This is the most laid back temperament we're talking about here, and Se is one of their weakest functions. ILI's are one of the least "in your face" types.

pointing out the problems with a plan > routinely challenging and strongly criticizing others

Think about who the ILI's dual is. SEE's are awesome for many reasons, but one of their shortcomings is the inability to judge whether or not something is worth putting effort towards or what's a good idea and what's a bad idea (in terms of things going wrong, it not working out, consequences, etc.). That's what they need ILI's for. They don't want to hang around people who tell them that their ideas are stupid or that they're illogical or they're just plain wrong or anything of that nature.

And Te isn't about who is right and who is wrong.

[aestrivex]

no. i don't agree.

They may point those things out, but they'd tend to do it in a more indirect/non-confrontational way than other temperaments would. "Going with the flow" is, after all, the opposite of making waves/rocking the boat/whatever. This is the most laid back temperament we're talking about here, and Se is one of their weakest functions. ILI's are one of the least "in your face" types.

in short, these are wrong associations. IP temperament is not about "not rocking the boat." SEIs and IEIs may want to "not rock the boat" in order to maintain a comfortable emotional atmosphere (obviously this is more stereotypically associated with SEIs.)

however, i interpret temperaments to be much more about lifestyle; in the case of ILIs, the lifestyle is determined by Ni. largely it means inaction, contemplation, and extensive mental activity. however, with Se and Te as quadra values, "not rocking the boat" -- at least with regards to intellectual matters, which the ILI cares about -- is not something an ILI would need to shy away from.

similarly, low focus on Se is not about lack of confidence in confrontation over ideologically oriented discussions. an ILI will not be confident about physical confrontation, but intellectual confrontation is not necessarily something that an ILI would shy away from. this is probably a characteristic that varies by individual; it would make perfect sense for an ILI to keep everything in his head and never say anything to anyone, but it also makes perfect sense to have an ILI who is intellectually active with respect to other people. i'd fall into the latter category (i don't know whether you think i'm more likely ESI or not; so i don't want to dwell on my own experience entirely, but know that it does control the bulk of my perceptions of the way Ni and creative Te are manifest.)

pointing out the problems with a plan > routinely challenging and strongly criticizing others

both, depending on the situation.

Think about who the ILI's dual is. SEE's are awesome for many reasons, but one of their shortcomings is the inability to judge whether or not something is worth putting effort towards or what's a good idea and what's a bad idea (in terms of things going wrong, it not working out, consequences, etc.). That's what they need ILI's for. They don't want to hang around people who tell them that their ideas are stupid or that they're illogical or they're just plain wrong or anything of that nature.

and an ESE would "want to hang around people who tell them that their ideas are stupid or that they're illogical or they're just plain wrong or anything of that nature." yes, that makes perfect sense.

actually, i think that SEEs -- while perhaps not interested in very logically oriented topics -- are reasonably receptive to an more in-depth analysis of intellectual topics, given that it's presented in a way that they can follow and that doesn't demean their intelligence. my reasons for saying this should be easily surmisable; i can give you a somewhat more comprehensive overview via PM.

And Te isn't about who is right and who is wrong.

i think it can be.

as far as topics such as socionics go, or other such topics where misinformation can be difficult to navigate through, a more pertinent example would be about why the people that are right are right, and vice versa.




overall, i think you're significantly diminishing the intellectual qualities of ILIs, which represent an important trait. for obvious reasons this is something i believe i understand very well.

[Joy]

no. i don't agree.



in short, these are wrong associations. IP temperament is not about "not rocking the boat." SEIs and IEIs may want to "not rock the boat" in order to maintain a comfortable emotional atmosphere (obviously this is more stereotypically associated with SEIs.)

however, i interpret temperaments to be much more about lifestyle; in the case of ILIs, the lifestyle is determined by Ni. largely it means inaction, contemplation, and extensive mental activity. however, with Se and Te as quadra values, "not rocking the boat" -- at least with regards to intellectual matters, which the ILI cares about -- is not something an ILI would need to shy away from.

similarly, low focus on Se is not about lack of confidence in confrontation over ideologically oriented discussions. an ILI will not be confident about physical confrontation, but intellectual confrontation is not necessarily something that an ILI would shy away from. this is probably a characteristic that varies by individual; it would make perfect sense for an ILI to keep everything in his head and never say anything to anyone, but it also makes perfect sense to have an ILI who is intellectually active with respect to other people. i'd fall into the latter category (i don't know whether you think i'm more likely ESI or not; so i don't want to dwell on my own experience entirely, but know that it does control the bulk of my perceptions of the way Ni and creative Te are manifest.)



both, depending on the situation.



and an ESE would "want to hang around people who tell them that their ideas are stupid or that they're illogical or they're just plain wrong or anything of that nature." yes, that makes perfect sense.

actually, i think that SEEs -- while perhaps not interested in very logically oriented topics -- are reasonably receptive to an more in-depth analysis of intellectual topics, given that it's presented in a way that they can follow and that doesn't demean their intelligence. my reasons for saying this should be easily surmisable; i can give you a somewhat more comprehensive overview via PM.



i think it can be.

as far as topics such as socionics go, or other such topics where misinformation can be difficult to navigate through, a more pertinent example would be about why the people that are right are right, and vice versa.




overall, i think you're significantly diminishing the intellectual qualities of ILIs, which represent an important trait. for obvious reasons this is something i believe i understand very well.

I see your point about the things I said, but I still think that he's too "in your face" for an ILI or any other IP type, regardless of how much he cares about Socionics.

[BLauritson]

From my experience, ILIs can be pedantic and detail-oriented in their work - whatever their field of choice may be -, which generally doesn't translate to pedantry in their daily life behavior.

Yeah.. I'd agree with that actually. I tend to be perfectionistic in my work to the extent that I'll quite happily destroy everything I've done and start from scratch if I think it's worth it, just to iron out some minor creases. I'm like this with my music.. I'm far behind on recording anything just because there's something minor I'm not happy with, so I end up deleting the whole recording and starting again. I know it sounds like a waste of effort, but meh.

[Phaedrus]

From my experience, ILIs can be pedantic and detail-oriented in their work - whatever their field of choice may be -, which generally doesn't translate to pedantry in their daily life behavior.

Correct view.