And I've found that all the people who made a big contribution to humanity had one thing in common... they all have conquered their Painful function... 4th function in A model.
And I've found that all the people who made a big contribution to humanity had one thing in common... they all have conquered their Painful function... 4th function in A model.
can't beat logicOriginally Posted by CuriousSoul
Well according to another interpretation "turning the other cheek" is actually clearly an act of defiance, and at the time it would have been universally understood as such. Think about it.
Yours Truly
Disciple of the Pharisee
yes i can see that -- refusing to get provoked, is that what you mean?
yes i can see how turning the other cheek could be constructive, but it's not the case in most situations.
damn, i left my chicken in the microwave and its sorta cold now, the spaghetti is still really hot though. its totally insane. i mean, i can't microwave it more, cause the spaghetti is hot, so i have to eat it like this. i could separate it and stuff, but i really don't feel like that.
only one party is to blame in THIS conflict-
thermodynamics.
My INTp friend from St. Petersburg e-mailed me this tasty bit of information.
"In ancient Russian villages a harmonist was not only a unique person, but also mystical – in the so called holiday fights he was untouchable. He played special tunes that accompanied the fight, these tunes drove people to utter atrocity. Often the fight persisted until the first man was killed, and that was not a crime. It was a sort of human sacrifice. The harmonist was clearly a VERY deep intuitive and feeler. He embodied the spirit of war! There is a Russian proverb, “a village does not stand without A holy man”. Every human colony needs A man who does not have to struggle to make a living – a symbol of eternity. The Russian world was guarded not only by ESTps – the guardians of the body, but also INFps – the mystical guardians of the spirit."
The INFp type is now accepting applications. Who wants to be an INFp in their next reincarnation?
So... if you were to be born again, which type would you like to be born as?
Sibelius
Yes I am a Finn, Jean Sibelius was of mixed descent, most of his ancestors were Swedish-speaking Finns, a minority going back to at least the 13th century, currently about 6% of population. Sibelius spoke Swedish at home but grew up in a mainly Finnish speaking town. He went to a private Swedish primary school and to a public Finnish secondary school. Later he married another Swedish speaking Finn but they became Finnish nationalists and settled in a Finnish speaking rural county and raised their children to Finnish speakers. Sibelius tried to stay outside the language conflicts that were at times quite hectic in Finland. Swedish was earlier the sole language of higher education and upper levels of society, and literary Finnish was only gradually established during the 19th century.
Aushra apparently typed Jean Sibelius as ISTP (Gaben) but in my opinion he was most likely INTP (Balzac), he was, for example, very unpractical person and running the household and raising the five children was pretty much the sole responsibility of his wife Aino who, in my opinion, was his dual ESFP (Caesar), but of course only in my opinion.
If you want to learn more about Finland, a pretty good place to start would be the goverment run propaganda site:
http://virtual.finland.fi
More on Sibelius, for example here:
http://www.ainola.fi/english/lassoindex.lasso
Jean Sibelius C. 1892
Georg von Wendt, a physician and amateur photographer, took a series of colour photographs of Jean Sibelius in 1939. These were probably the only colour photographs of Sibelius ever taken.
Aino Sibelius in the early years of her marriage. Picture from c. 1891.
Aino Sibelius in 1922.
aboslutely excellent of you, thank you very much!
So what is the common psychological type for Finnish women?
While we're off complimenting each other, I do find it remarkable Curious that you speak English so well. How many languages do you know?
Curious soul:
I see your arguments for INTp, but, just from my experiences, i see ISTp in his eyes. i work with an ISTp and she has a very similar gaze. definitely very interesting. I appreciate your responding. regardless, he is my favorite composer second only to Bruckner. Shockingly i never put much thought into what type he was though.
as for guest, prob. LK, i cant say what i'll reincarnate as. I am not certain as to how the process works. Have any theories on how the process works?
i know what i would prefer not to reincarnate as-
1.ISFj
2.ESFp
3.ISTj
4.ISTp
5.ESTp
6.ESFj
7.ISFp
i just dont have much interest in being any of these types. maybe im missing out on alot though.
That is a tough one.
I may have to plead insufficient experience... They run the whole gamut of course, but perhaps the old stereotypical image would be closest to ISTP, quiet, independent, hard-working, hard to impress etc.
Complimenting usually makes Finns feel uncomfortable, sincerity of praise is hard to evaluate, it threatens to create obligations, the meaning of words waters down quickly, an ISTP culture...
I speak Finnish, English, Swedish and fairly good German. Good public educaton system, some personal effort, relatives in England. I do not want to get too personal.
Interesting. Why not ESFp, and why not ISTj?
In Jung's autobiographical book Memories, Dreams, Reflections, there is a chapter called Life After Death. There he discusses reincarnation.
Thanks, that's interesting. I've been to Helsinki long time ago.That is a tough one.
I may have to plead insufficient experience... They run the whole gamut of course, but perhaps the old stereotypical image would be closest to ISTP, quiet, independent, hard-working, hard to impress etc.
this is interesting, do you have any resonant examples?
any great person
Any examples?
how about Donald Trump
I would not classify him as a great person.
But what do you think, did he master his Fi?
I think compared to most ESTps who are usually wheeler dealers
He had to learn ethical conduct in order to succeed in legitimate business...
Of course business ethics are very different from Social ethics
How about another ESTp -- Napoleon Bonoparte, who was confused for an ESFp by Ausra?
Robespierre, an INTj who became a charismatic leader (Se)
Alexander Dumas, an ISFp who organized a very successful novel writing workshop (Te)
Picasso, an INFp who became really good at marketing his art
Great ISTjs:
Marquis de Sade, Salvador Dali... even Doc Love... their systems are not only exquisitely detailed, but also intuitively innovative
So we could say if the 5th function is the gate to individuation, the fourth is the gate to worldly greatness.
If Jesus had an army, he would not have died on the cross...
Both of these statements are wrong.
Most of the Typewatchers, including Isabel Myers, typed Jung as INTP. His close disciples, such as Marie Luise von Franz and James Hillman, argued whether Jung was rational or irrational, but in all cases agreed he was INT.
As for socionics: although Aushra Augusta believed Jung was INTJ (Analyst), actually most of the socionists agree that he was INTP (Critic). INTJs tend to have well-structured speech, to speak with accomplished, definite phrases. By contrast, INTPs prefer to speak in terms of images, comparisons, and for this reason their speech seems to be somewhat vague, even when they speak about mathematics (INTPs usually like mathematics). I think, the last is more proper to Jung.
www.socioniko.net is no longer my site.
Dmitri:
Jung's type has always been an interest to me, and I have a hard time deciding what rumors you can find on the internet are true are not(theres one that says there was an interview with Jung very late in his life where he answers that he is an Introverted Thinking type).
I came to a realization that the translators of Jung into English and Russian/other languages may have had an influence in the subject, since most MBTI analysists are reading English translations and Socionics analysists reading from other translators. I suppose that may have caused MBTIs to type Jung as MBTI INTP(INTJ) and Socionists to type him as INTJ(Socionics INTJ). I wonder what the opinions are of native Polish speaking Socionists or MBTI analysists? What do you think?
Sorry, I know only one native Polish speaking socionist (to say exactly, an enthusiast of socionics), but why did you ask about the Polish?
As for Jung: myself (and some other socionists) read Jung's work in the original, I mean, in German. If you want, I can send you Jung's Psychologische Typen in German.
www.socioniko.net is no longer my site.
Sibelius etc.
I based my typing mainly on inevitably rather ambiguous biographical information. You have Aushra and personal resemblance on your side - I grant you the advantage, but the conclusive proof is still lacking.
So do you think Aino could have been an ENFP then?
They had a very long marriage that had its ups and downs, during the early years the financial situation was often very difficult and Jean Sibelius had a difficult temper, drank heavily and led often rather a bohemian life, but in the end the marriage always survived all the tests and the mutual love endured till the end. When he was 85, he still proposed to her for the second time, and feeling the need to apologize for his misdeedsdeclared that though she could probably had an easier life with another man, he could never have been as happy with anyone else.
Or according to Aino, in her own words: (my translation)
I remember well when our house was being renovated, and one house painter was whistling while working. I had to humbly ask him to stop because it disturbs the professor. The man did not quite understand, but I found a good allegory. What would he say, if he had just painted a wall and someone would come and paint over it with his paintbrush and destroy the whole work. The man understood.
I am fortunate to have been able to live by his side. It feels that I have not lived in vain. I do not claim that this has always been easy - one has had to suppress and control oneself - but I am very happy. I bless my faith and consider it a gift from heaven. My husband's music has been word of God to me - its source is noble, and it is wonderful to live by such a source.
More on Sibelius in English for example
here and and here, the pages contain many pictures:
Me neither :wink:as for guest, prob. LK, i cant say what i'll reincarnate as. I am not certain as to how the process works.
I think it is kind of like the old saying: If my grandma had balls, she'd be my grandpa. Of course it is fun to speculate, but I would say that the personality type so closely defines what we are that it would be probably easier imagine changing your sex than your "Type of Information Metabolism". We can observe how representatives of other types behave, but we do not really have any idea what it feels like to have another type.
Having said that, I think I would actually probably prefer to be a sensory type, the costs of intuition often seem to outweigh the benefits. An ESTJ maybe, the more relaxed sensory subtype if possible.
Oh ... yeah .. I was thinking of the information metabolism guy. Jung was Swiss then, German speaking. I think you got my point though, I'm wondering why MBTI people and Socionics people type him so differently, and considering most MBTI people are in the US, and most US people don't speak more than one language(some barely speak one language), I would assume alot of the MBTI people read Jung's work as translated work. Although, then again, the Anglo-Saxon influence in English may make a decent translation, it's not quite as big a jump as translating to Cyrillic. Then again, the translators are not only translating the semantics of the words, they are also most likely translated the information to their own understanding, so I would imagine it would be near impossible to get the complete unadulterated words and meanings unless you read it in it's original language.
I do recognize now alot of Irrationality(the meaning of that word to most American English speaking people is so off-base and misassociated I suppose I should call it Perceiving like MBTI) in his ideas, however I had an initial assumption his type was MBTI, since I felt I could easily understand his ideas and according to Socionics descriptions that should be near impossible for Quasi-Identicals. Perhaps I understood the translator's understanding of Jung very well instead. I still am not convinced either way, leaving that one to another day. The original German text would be useless to me, as in the US we have very poor educational systems because we are a superpower and need oil very very badly, apparently.
Well typewatching isn't restricted to Isabel Myers. There are lots who type Jung as INFp, read more typewatching books, and you'll see that I am right.Both of these statements are wrong.
Most of the Typewatchers, including Isabel Myers, typed Jung as INTP. His close disciples, such as Marie Luise von Franz and James Hillman, argued whether Jung was rational or irrational, but in all cases agreed he was INT.
As for socionics: although Aushra Augusta believed Jung was INTJ (Analyst), actually most of the socionists agree that he was INTP (Critic). INTJs tend to have well-structured speech, to speak with accomplished, definite phrases. By contrast, INTPs prefer to speak in terms of images, comparisons, and for this reason their speech seems to be somewhat vague, even when they speak about mathematics (INTPs usually like mathematics). I think, the last is more proper to Jung.
Yes, I did not mention that Jung is also typed as INTp. That was just an example to demonstrate my point.
Also you contradict yourself. You say both statements are wrong, that means that "Socionists type him as INTj." is wrong. Than you write "Aushra Augusta believed Jung was INTJ (Analyst)".
The probability would be higher for Jung to be an INFp than INTp. Jung's work is clearly has a lot of Ti. INFps have activational Ti. There are many INFp ingeneers. They have good abstract systems thinking. In that they are more similar to INTjs than INTps, who are not so structured.
Car Gustav Jung
Being an ethical type, I see enough differences to myself to make me feel quite strongly that Jung was a logical type. If you type based on the rational/irrational scale, he would clearly appear to be irrational, but then again so would I, almost to 100%. Yet that is not the case. Thus in my opinion also with Carl Gustav Jung. In my great wisdom I hereby decree the debate resolved once and for all:
He was an INTJ, though with a somewhat unusual subtype/the functions were developed in a way that they are not with your average garden variety INTJ.
an ethical type can have a very strong logical function, but in the hirarchy of functions the logical function would be subservient to the goals defined by the ethical (or intuitive, sensory etc). strength and position in the hirarchy are two seperate factors. i suggest you read memoirs, dreams, reflections... that's where the ethical side of jung comes out more.
personally as an infp, i see a lot of similarities with my type. i believe you've mentioned you were an infj.
Re: Dichotomies
"There is, finally, a third group, and here it is hard to say whether the motivation comes chiefly from within or without. This group is the most numerous and includes the less differentiated normal man" (Jung, 1971. Jung, C. G. (1971). Psychological types. In W. McGuire (Ed.) The collected works of C. G. Jung (Vol. 6), Bollinger Series XX. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.)Well this seems to remain a matter of opinion, and I may well find myself alone with my point of view but I would still insist that practical observations support my claim that introversion/extraversion is the most fundamental dichotomy. It just bothers me that people constantly confuse introversion with shyness and other manifestations of external behavior. Also in terms of typing, I would say that the I/E scale can often be the most puzzling exactly because it appears so obvious, yet it can often be so misleading and - as always - there just is not much absolutely reliable info available. Sometimes the intertype relations and functions seem to indicate a type that just makes one wonder how far you dare stretch your theories...
Thanks for answering.
but i didn't say he wasn't an intj, i only said that probably he has a well differentiated infp persona too.
"The probability would be higher for Jung to be an INFp than INTp. Jung's work is clearly has a lot of Ti. INFps have activational Ti. There are many INFp ingeneers. They have good abstract systems thinking. In that they are more similar to INTjs than INTps, who are not so structured."
Not really. Many infp's visions of intellectual grandeur are often the result of a poor Ni and ti relationship. This results in poor and unstructured abstract analysis- however it often does not appear that way to the infp.
Ni+Ti doesn't work. Ni+Fe does.
However, infps can come up with good Ti based solutions to problems. However, it is concrete analysis and this due to Ti's partnership with Se.
Thus they are more similar to istjs than intjs. And can you see an istj coming up with these imaginatively logical ideas? Probably not (nothing against istj's, they just have their own special talents).
Jung
hmm visions of intellectual grandeur... is that when one signs a post jung?
i don't know, some of the best russian scientists are infps... i think some people are just jealous, so they try to devalue infp's intellectual capacities.
istj's thinking is more algebraic, intj's is more geometric, and infp's is more geometric than algebraic... so i'd disagree.
i also disagree that Ni does not combine well with Ti. in fact it has not been proven yet that INTj is Ti Ne and NOT Ti Ni, as the results from the LOT test suggested. Ni is imagination and Ti is system's logic. I think they combine very well -- that's what allows one to build an imaginary MODEL of reality.
Ne is a good nose for possibilities. It also helps Ti... no doubt. But both of these combinations are potent.
Another thing is that the INFp type is very rare. And being a deep Introvert, remains an iceberg hidden from view. So I seriously doubt that you can have it all figured out like that.
i'll post on how INFp's Ni works soon in the Intuition(s) thread.
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