An INFj's opinion about ESTjs

[UDP]

Maybe I'd have to experience this irl to really judge, but it makes me doubt that the two people I've thought could be ESTj's are ESTj's, and tbh the way it's been put sounds pretty cold and offputting to me.

It may not sound very appealing, it's just the nuts and bolts of what is going on. Why do you suppose those people are not LSE?

It's quite ok. That is an area on which I gladly take your criticism.

same. I didn't particularly see it as a slight to begin with, ftr.

Anyway, you're also correct in what you say about everyone caring. I was just trying to make a point that though socionics says ESTj are caretakers, that quality itself doesn't in any way refer to caring about others, but to physically taking care of others, which is quite a different thing.

Right.

[The Greeter]

All of this sounds pretty appealing to me and I happen to like the few ESTjs I have met.

[UDP]

You're an EII, right, Greeter?

[The Greeter]

Yes, I am.

[Minde]

For one thing, consider how their duals are more "self sacrificing". LSE definitely balances that out in terms of the duality, so they are going to be more "self centered", at least in terms of beneficial things. I doubt LSEs are prone to spending time on things they don't think are useful or beneficial to them. Not the EIIs are, but, in the realm of interpersonal relations, the EII is better at paying sincere attention to people.

This doesn't mean all LSE's are going to be "conceited assholes", no. And they can be magnanimous towards people they care about, too. But, say, compare an LSE to an SEI, whom the LSE supervises. The LSE will seem more self centered. LSE's will be concerned with ensuring their well being, and that they are doing what they want to do.

It may not sound very appealing, it's just the nuts and bolts of what is going on.

Thinking more on this - I suppose it is partially a matter of perspective, particularly quadratically speaking, in terms of whether or not someone is considered conceited, or abrasive, or even self-centered. Differing (socionic) values, and all that.

But... there's a certain part of what you wrote that strikes me as... not quite right. Not quite acceptable or good to me. A bit... off-putting.

There is a difference, for example, between being abrupt and being caustic. There's a difference between focusing on the task at hand and disregarding the needs or situations of others. Those are the same kinds of feeling I'm getting here with regard to egotism and self-centeredness. The "that's just how it is" line is not working so well for me, I think mainly because I don't think that's how it should be.

It's quite ok. That is an area on which I gladly take your criticism.

Criticism on character? In any case, I wasn't criticizing. More like offering a counter-balance, I guess. Or, as I see in retrospect, providing further distinction perhaps.

Anyway, you're also correct in what you say about everyone caring. I was just trying to make a point that though socionics says ESTj are caretakers, that quality itself doesn't in any way refer to caring about others, but to physically taking care of others, which is quite a different thing.

This is probably a very silly question with a very obvious answer, but just to make sure I understand you completely - The two, caring and caretaking, are distinct, yes. But they are not mutually exclusive in ESTjs, correct? (Ideally, to me, they would coincide.)

[Trevor]

Why would someone caretake if s/he doesn't care in the first place. These two are highly correlated.

[UDP]

Hmm, I never saw so many "LSE's" when it should have been "LSEs" as in that post that I wrote.

The "that's just how it is" line is not working so well for me, I think mainly because I don't think that's how it should be.

Ok.

The two, caring and caretaking, are distinct, yes. But they are not mutually exclusive in ESTjs, correct? (Ideally, to me, they would coincide.

IMO/IME, the more I care about people the more I want to do for them. The more enjoyable & rewarding it becomes to do things for them, and the more significant their well being becomes to me.

[Minde]

Why would someone caretake if s/he doesn't care in the first place. These two are highly correlated.

Smilingeyes listed some reasons above, including parading oneself, practicing (practicing what?), and taking on challenges.

IMO/IME, the more I care about people the more I want to do for them. The more enjoyable & rewarding it becomes to do things for them, and the more significant their well being becomes to me.

And, yet...

*cue announcer voice * Recent intelligence suggest that ESTjs in the wild do not always take care with care.

Stay tuned for further details.

[Minde]

I understand. It is hard for me to imagine an ESTj parading oneself to get ovation. IME they're parading oneself to oneself.

Maybe not so much ovation as appreciation?

Which, if that's the case, could be seen as a manifestation of Fi DS. (Which, in turn, reminds me of previous discussions regarding strong dual seeking and how that can result in pathetic behavior.)

[Trevor]

Maybe not so much ovation as appreciation?

Yes, I think you depicted it perfectly. Fi-seeking basically.

[UDP]

aww, dolphins post spoils my own. oh well.

[Trevor]

...reminds me of previous discussions regarding strong dual seeking and how that can result in pathetic behavior.)

Interesting! How is that manifested in ESTjs? Is it maybe I'll-do-it-for/insteadof-you/everyone type of behaviour? Could you provide me with the link of that discussion(if it's not a problem). I'm very interested.

[Minde]

Interesting! How is that manifested in ESTjs? Is it maybe I'll-do-it-for/insteadof-you/everyone type of behaviour? Could you provide me with the link of that discussion(if it's not a problem). I'm very interested.

Erm... um... *wracks brain* I don't remember the specific thread. And I have no predictions regarding ESTjs. All I really have are observations, and even those are severely limited.

*does search*

Ah, I misremembered. It wasn't dual seeking it was hidden agenda. Here's the thread I was thinking about, though.

[Minde]

*cue announcer voice * Recent as well as past intelligence suggests UDP is blatantly Ti/Fe valuing and. not. ESTj.

Stay tuned for something weird and rather creepy called UDP and the Saga of the INFj.

Are you laughing with or at me? It's a little hard to tell.

If it's with - . If it's at - .

[UDP]

I suspect it is more making a comment about me and my type than to do with you (Minde).

My original post was actually going to be me loling at your announcer voice (--with, not at).

[Trevor]

I've read that but thanx anyway. Btw, I think it could be reasonable to assume that the focus on one's DS function could also result in some sort of pathetic behaviour. But i don't know.

[Minde]

I've read that but thanx anyway.

Sorry.

Btw, I think it could be reasonable to assume that the focus on one's DS function could also result in some sort of pathetic behaviour. But i don't know.

Yeah. It was just me musing. Sometimes those funny little thoughts work; other times they don't.

[The Greeter]

I've read that but thanx anyway. Btw, I think it could be reasonable to assume that the focus on one's DS function could also result in some sort of pathetic behaviour. But i don't know.

I'll take a guess for the "pathetic" behaviour that results from Fi-dual seeking.

I think the social manifestation would be the Fi-dual seeker not being aware, though seeking confirmation, of one's relationship with others. As a result, they may treat people who dislike them kindly or favourably, as if they have good intentions, or treating people who like them and want to help them in a cold manner or harshly. Of course, they sometimes will also get it right but probably get frustrated by the inconsistency of their evaluation with respect to relationships.

Hope that made sense.

[Minde]

By the way, I don't necessarily consider any of the behaviors mentioned as being pathetic, per se (other words might fit better). Only that I was reminded of that discussion. A tenuous connection that may or may not prove to have any worth.

[UDP]

sure, it makes sense.
Sounds a lot like what is on the wikisocion.

Another sense of DS pathetic-ness might be relying on someone as a crutch: resorting to their opinion in matters related to the DS function, assuming they know best.

[The Greeter]

I do not think of them as pathetic either, hence the quotations. Strangely enough, I find them endearing albeit this sentiment is not limited to just Fi-dual seeking.

[UDP]

.

http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...overted_ethics as a suggestive (5th) function (LIE and LSE)

The individual longs for close personal relationships where personal and private experiences can be shared easily in an atmosphere of mutual trust, sustained by shared sentiments and ethical beliefs that make external expression of emotions unnecessary. The individual is inclined to take first steps, but he is not confident of his ability to correctly evaluate the existence or status of such a relationship and therefore is attracted to persons who value clear and unambiguous personal relationships with others and who follow a clear set of ethical principles, which gives them credibility and makes them deserving of trust in the individual's eyes.
The individual tends not to consider whether people are friends or enemies or whether they feel good will or ill will towards them. Instead, he or she usually acts right from the start as if the other person were a friend or an enemy based on their prior knowledge of what the person does. This makes it possible to mistake a friend for an enemy and vice versa. Only gradually does the individual come to recognize what feelings others have for him, and there is always an element of doubt unless others express those feelings verbally and unambiguously and act in a way that clearly matches their stated feelings, over a sufficient period of time. The individual is easily made insecure about the status of personal relationships and needs frequent reassurance that the other person's feelings have not changed.
The individual is sheepish about expressing his personal feelings about people ("I find you really interesting" or "I like you a lot"), but responds very well to these statements, as if they were unexpected treats. Instead, the person tends to focus on whether others' behavior makes sense or not.

[Christy B]

I don't really hate "LSEs" of course! I was just upset and venting.. I'm sorry people are taking it so seriously. I know there are probably some really good LSEs in the world. I have just been hanging out with shitty people it seems.

Sorry for offending anyone who is LSE and not a jerk-off!

[Christy B]

Oh you really did it this time Christy. Smilingeyes is off crying in a corner....

actually probably not crying but more likely he'd....

probably opt for taking a drink and watching porn with earphones too.

But I hope he stops because right now I am formally apologizing for my bad behaviour!
I'm sorry

[Christy B]

He's crying into his beer. That's what ESTjs do.

That makes me want to give a hug

[munenori2]

It may not sound very appealing, it's just the nuts and bolts of what is going on. Why do you suppose those people are not LSE?

To answer this many moons later, I guess it has to do with seeing the two possible ESTj's as taking part in the caretaking activity described but being what I perceive as genuinely warm and caring to everyone they help in that way. Granted, maybe I perceive it that way because I usually am very receptive and appreciative of it. I wouldn't describe either as cold or parading around in that fashion at all though.

[Smilingeyes]

To answer this many moons later, I guess it has to do with seeing the two possible ESTj's as taking part in the caretaking activity described but being what I perceive as genuinely warm and caring to everyone they help in that way. Granted, maybe I perceive it that way because I usually am very receptive and appreciative of it. I wouldn't describe either as cold or parading around in that fashion at all though.

*shrug*. It depends on the situation.

[Minde]

This is probably a very silly question with a very obvious answer, but just to make sure I understand you completely - The two, caring and caretaking, are distinct, yes. But they are not mutually exclusive in ESTjs, correct? (Ideally, to me, they would coincide.)

Why do you not reply to my question, Smilingeyes?

Is it truly that stupid a question? Or, is UDP's answer also your own?

IMO/IME, the more I care about people the more I want to do for them. The more enjoyable & rewarding it becomes to do things for them, and the more significant their well being becomes to me.

[Smilingeyes]

Why do you not reply to my question, Smilingeyes?

Is it truly that stupid a question? Or, is UDP's answer also your own?

Sorry, I didn't get that that one was addressed to me. Yeah, the two are distinct. I mean, I'm a doctor. I can't choose my patients. There's plenty enough of them that I take care of just to get them quickly out the door. I do my best with each one. It's just that with some of them I have to quiet down a smile inside me.

Regarding UDP's way of putting it, if I actually did something more for patients that I like, I'd be asking for a lawsuit. So I can't do that. In private life, I haven't really been out with people a lot since I went ESTj. I have two INFj aunts though. I liked helping them set up dinner in the new year's. They had been so kind to me for a long while and I felt I had ignored them for too long.

[necrosebud]

haha, I am sure there are (subjectively and also 'objectively') attractive LSEs out there...

as for intelligence, they have a different set of strengths (Te and Si) so perhaps not best judged from an intuitive lens (so they can also be 'intelligent'... ultimately what matters is smooth communication I would say)

[tardigrade]

haha, I am sure there are (subjectively and also 'objectively') attractive LSEs out there...

as for intelligence, they have a different set of strengths (Te and Si) so perhaps not best judged from an intuitive lens (so they can also be 'intelligent'... ultimately what matters is smooth communication I would say)

14 years later. Visiting your older thoughts? ��
Have they changed at all? Seems the mood has improved ��

For what it's worth, I don't need my ESTj dual partner to be super interesting for them to fit me like a glow and to have a happy life with them. I kinda prefer the level headedness and stability the dual, and especially the ESTj dual can provide.

[necrosebud]

14 years later. Visiting your older thoughts? ��
Have they changed at all? Seems the mood has improved ��

?

[Ruby13357]

Wouldn't kindreds be more alike than duals?

I often have my kindred types ILIs telling me how similar we are. Maybe those people are your kindred rather than your duals.

[tardigrade]

?

Sorry, my mistake. I thought you were OP, they also have a rose avatar

[necrosebud]

Sorry, my mistake. I thought you were OP, they also have a rose avatar

no worries