An INFj's opinion about ESTjs

[Blaze]

I actually agree with hkkmr's opinions.

On the other hand, I don't think that duals complement each other's weaknesses. I have discussed it with Ashton once. In fact, each type is not necessarily weak in their fifth and sixth functions. Duals get together because of their compatibility in their strong functions, rather than trying to "complete" each other. For instance, for both ESTjs and INFjs, they are both strong in Fi, Ne, Te and Si. Moreover, the first two functions need not be the strongest eg. an INFj's two strongest functions might be Fi and Te on top of Si and Ne, rather than Fi and Ne. Rather than a case of having "opposites attract", the case of duality is "likeness begets likeness". Besides their personality, it could also be VI-wise.

duals, semi-duals, activities, and illusionaries help you with your weaknesses indirectly, through the back door. by way of contrast, your supervisor tries to directly help you address your polr with their leading function. this never works since it's too direct.

so if you are weak in Fi (like me) then somebody with Fe in their ego block helps me by using Fe.

[xyz]

duals, semi-duals, activities, and illusionaries help you with your weaknesses indirectly, through the back door. by way of contrast, your supervisor tries to directly help you address your polr with their leading function. this never works since it's too direct.

so if you are weak in Fi (like me) then somebody with Fe in their ego block helps me by using Fe.

Ne me. Do it.

[tiny_dancer]

Go couchsurfing. www.couchsurfing.com

(random enough for you?)

[xyz]

DUDE!!

l

[tiny_dancer]

haha - totally knew you'd love that. that's what ENFps are good for

[xyz]

Seriously thanks. I forgot that this existed. Now the idea part (the hard part) is taken care of. Now I gotta find the cash

[FDG]

If they see themselves as incomplete and needing someone else in order to be a whole person then they obviously don't have anything to give to anyone. Those that see themselves as defective, needy, needing someone to make them whole cannot have a give and take relationship, especially when they're looking for someone who will prop them up and be enough to not only take care of themselves but also support the seeker as well. They're walking into that store with empty pockets expecting the store to give them food and take care of them, but are not willing to do the work required to earn their own food. Comprende?

Too harsh of a view. Construct creating+negativist people should just shut up and do their duty instead of throwing around insults at everybody that they perceive as weak (I've reprimanded Kirstiina on this behavior, and now you). Being negative and uncompromising will only lead to a worsening of their condition instead of getting them out depression - learned helplessness - whatever their problem may be.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Creepy-Diana]

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[meatburger]

Go couchsurfing. www.couchsurfing.com

(random enough for you?)

WOW!!! thats the best thing i got out of this thread by far

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Minde]

Either I am extremely bad at explaining myself, or there are a lot of assumptions being made.

If I said "There may be more options than that" would that annoy you?

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Minde]

lol. I'm waiting for a single post of mine today to go unchallenged by someone or other.

What other options do you see?

I wasn't challenging you.

I was attempting a socionics test.

Interesting reaction, though I'm thinking it probably isn't entirely socionics related.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[implied]

lol. I'm waiting for a single post of mine today to go unchallenged by someone or other.

What other options do you see?

you're so wrong!!! (;

[UDP]

(I should probably finish reading everything before I post... hold on)

[UDP]

yep. It seems like it could be a quadra difference to me, since the same difference comes up often with other deltas as well. I'm much more individual-minded rather than at all community-minded.

Yeah. When we've talked about relationship I remember a similar angst that came up when we were talking about, imo, some of the aspects of si/ne caregiver infantile relationships. Not sure if it is exactly the same, but you have your beliefs there.


- a lot of talk in this thread, heh

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Then I misunderstood. The way you mention duality in bold is something I agree with, but I don't get that from the posts I read here in the forum. I don't like how duality is put on this pedestal as being the best type of relationship for every aspect in your life: "The solution = your dual, they will help you out in all the things you lack." I think an important factor here is that I might have not yet read "the" socionics reference, as in the authority on the subject. Is there such a book or article?

((We must remember what SOCIONICS is, and what it is not))

Well, it also might have a lot to do with your goals in life. To me, personal growth and development is one of my big goals. It frustrates me that I will become dependent on someone when I can learn to do it myself, and have someone have that power over me, since I depend on them. I understand the positive aspects of surrendering things with the right person, but it should be a choice rather than an actual need.

Personally, I like the ESTj personality. The very significant issue I have, or the most I encounter, is the moral character with some of the individuals... I get along well with ESTjs that have a conscience desire to improve on their morality, with the others I don't. Actually, I don't even bother to develop anything with anybody when a certain moral character red zone level is reached. And I'm not saying like "they should say excuse me after leaving the dinner table." No... more along the lines of cheating, having complete disregard for another's thoughts and feelings, deep pride, selfishness, expecting things of others and not on themselves, crazy lust, etc. I am not judgmental at all (though in the past I must admit that I was), but I find it really repulsive when someone does these things without remorse, or with no effort to improve on them. Based on the previous to previous paragraph, I would help someone develop the personal growth as I grow too, or it might happen that I actually instill the desire for it by accidental influence, but I don't want to be depended on for taking care of that aspect all the time.

I am somewhat compelled to say that morality and spirituality and self improvement sometimes does not come easy to people, even if they are "aware" of it, or know they should get better.

I generally seem to enjoy INFjs because they are concerned with this sort of thing. I am interested but I feel more or less unskilled about actually interpreting and understanding the in depth aspects of that sort of.

[UDP]

I actually agree with hkkmr's opinions.

On the other hand, I don't think that duals complement each other's weaknesses. I have discussed it with Ashton once. In fact, each type is not necessarily weak in their fifth and sixth functions. Duals get together because of their compatibility in their strong functions, rather than trying to "complete" each other. For instance, for both ESTjs and INFjs, they are both strong in Fi, Ne, Te and Si. Moreover, the first two functions need not be the strongest eg. an INFj's two strongest functions might be Fi and Te on top of Si and Ne, rather than Fi and Ne. Rather than a case of having "opposites attract", the case of duality is "likeness begets likeness". Besides their personality, it could also be VI-wise.

I don't really agree when you say that an INFj is "strong" in Te, Si, Ne, and Fi. The way you phrase things makes it sound like "good at", instead of what socionics means when something is strong. All of those functions are of course valued. I do not know many INFjs I would say are "remarkably skilled" with Si, even to just use the "good at" sort of terminology, rather than socionics' "strong"

As for my opinion about ESTjs, I admire their work ethic and thoroughness in solving in problem. However, to live with them or/and having them as part of your family is a different thhing.

Well why don't you tell us a few things, Eunice:

Why don't you tell us what specific experience caused you to write this thread. Also, explain your relationships with the ESTjs you are referring to, and why they are negative. Write some specific scenarios and examples, so we see what you are talking about, and that may better illustrate why your "opinion about ESTjs" at this time.

I just find Beta types on average more attractive than Delta types. Just a personal opinion.

[UDP]

@Eunice. Perhaps you are not an INFj?. It seems odd to me you would find you're opposite quadra most attractive. I see that they are physically attractive, INFp's even maybe slightly more on occasion but thats all.

Truth be told, I've found women in every quadra to be attractive.

...on a physical level.
Psychological compatibility is not quite the same thing.
I'm sure we've all been in situations where you "think" is nicer to get along with someone because they are hot, and you might just be more focused on attraction, romantics, flirting, etc. But psychological interaction and its ease or lack there of is what is there even after the emphasis on physical attraction fades.

"After you've sexed each other as much as you can, are you going to enjoy spending time with this person?"


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Too harsh of a view. Construct creating+negativist people should just shut up and do their duty instead of throwing around insults at everybody that they perceive as weak (I've reprimanded Kirstiina on this behavior, and now you). Being negative and uncompromising will only lead to a worsening of their condition instead of getting them out depression - learned helplessness - whatever their problem may be.

It wasn't an insult. It's just a matter of reality that if someone wants another person to rescue them from themselves they don't think they have anything to contribute to a relationship. They're expecting the other person to hold both of them up rather than holding up their half themselves. This is not the foundation of a healthy relationship for either person. Those who think it is - are deceiving themselves.

It's the difference between knowing you have something to offer, and expecting someone else to save you because you think you're lacking and they will fill those holes for you. They are acting the part of a parasite, like it or not, that's how it is.

As for my duty, I have no idea what you mean by that? I have no duty or responsibility for anyone on this forum. We're all just people talking.

There are times when it would seem very difficult for Diana and FDG to be duals. This is one of them.

Perhaps it is attributed to E7 (FDG) vs E1? (Diana), but still.

[eunice]

I don't really agree when you say that an INFj is "strong" in Te, Si, Ne, and Fi. The way you phrase things makes it sound like "good at", instead of what socionics means when something is strong. All of those functions are of course valued. I do not know many INFjs I would say are "remarkably skilled" with Si, even to just use the "good at" sort of terminology, rather than socionics' "strong"

Not necessarily. There are INFjs who are stronger in Te or/and Si as compared to some ESTj even though they are not in the ego blocks. In other words, been stronger in the fifth or sixth function does not make you your dual and you don't have to be strongest in the two functions in the ego block to be that type.

(photo)

He's Ti-INTj, not ESTj. Moreover, I admired him for his strategy in playing the game of Survivor, rather than his appearance.

[Lobo]

lol. I'm waiting for a single post of mine today to go unchallenged by someone or other.

What other options do you see?

Sorry Diana, I know that I probably started this whole mess ... I do see everything you're saying, and it might seem harsh at first glance from other points of view.

However, it's not harsh or too rough, it actually is believing in the resilience and potential of people to become more apt at things, and helping others to believe in themselves by helping them do things on their own, and vice-versa. It's not that if someone asks for help you won't give it, but it should be given with the idea to push that person to gradually learn how to do it by his or her own. Take a blind person for example. The most common thing to think probably is that the person will not be able to do anything cause they can't see, at least not be able to live alone. Yet, that's not true, it's amazing how there are blind people who live by themselves and manage, and I'm sure that this improves so many things in their self-esteem and character.

I do believe that this also applies to other aspects of human life as well. That's why I don't agree with allowing someone to take over aspects of your personality completely, or "filling" what you don't have supposedly.

[Lobo]

I am somewhat compelled to say that morality and spirituality and self improvement sometimes does not come easy to people, even if they are "aware" of it, or know they should get better.

I generally seem to enjoy INFjs because they are concerned with this sort of thing. I am interested but I feel more or less unskilled about actually interpreting and understanding the in depth aspects of that sort of.

I wasn't saying that it is hard or not, it's the desire to really improve on it that I look for. I don't consider myself to be a "master" in terms of any of those things, they are just important to me, that's all. So important, that I'm not really fulfilling myself if I have to deal with people who don't care about it, or quite possibly look down upon it, and I certainly won't "make" someone care about it. I think there is a point where things click, and you actually have an understanding of what "that" has been all along, and I think this might be what is referred to as the dual seeking function. I do appreciate when I am helped to see things/situations more superficially and simpler, which is what I get from ESTjs at least. I didn't feel that way in the past.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[meatburger]

There are INFjs who are stronger in Te or/and Si as compared to some ESTj even though they are not in the ego blocks.

To be honest i do doubt this a little. I dont doubt the possibility but i see it as very rare and unlikely. These are the circumstances i can see this happening:

Your an absolute genius. I think you need to accept that your just a magnificent human being and that 99% of people aren't gonna meet your criteria.
Your dating a very low intelligence person. Im talking really low. So low their Si doesn't even work lol.

But i think if your not a Genius 99% of ESTj's will kick your ass at these functions.

There have been times when I've made someone do something on their own that I knew they could even though they didn't want to. I was taking care of all the needs of a brain-injured man.

But i suppose this Brain injured man also needs someone to help him with his life on occasion? But Of course hes not classified as weak because he relys on someone else. Humans are part of a team. We have specialists (doctors, Gardeners, Builders) etc. We have achieved so much because we rely on one another.

I am perfectly happy accepting that i have some weak areas. I would instead prefer to be the best ENFp that i can be. So i cant use Ti! bugger it im not gonna fumble around becomming a jack of all trades master of none. I would much rather focus on my strongest qualities. So when i meet a person who loves what i am comes along, she wont mind that im not good at maths because im great at other things.

I think the differences in this thread are from my point of view

Functions: We cant improve upon them much. Therefore help with them is appreciated
Chores/General Taking care of yourself: Anyone capable of these things. Cooking, doing their tax, finding a job, paying bills, feeling good about yourself.

So other people are nice for helping with functions but chores you shouldn't rely on someone else to do.

[munenori2]

Well, one can talk about being self-sufficient (or at least as much as they may be capable of) and one can talk of comparative advantage (you do what you're good at and I'll do what I am), but I have to think that dualization falls somewhere in between the two mediums.

The more you get to the former, the less you need the other. The more to the latter and the more you are in need, to the point of being hopelessly flawed without the other. But we each have to make our own ways in life, accepting as a possibility that this other person never materializes. These people will, I think, more naturally gravitate to the first perspective. This is true, based on the full weight of their life. If you are so fortunate as to meet a dual type early on the benefits might be more clear, assuming that they are a healthy and well-meaning individual. If they aren't then all the worse.

People need people. No one's an island. No one's complete or incomplete, though they might be more or less. Some things are greater than the sum of its parts. If you can't conceive of a person along this line of being that 'greater-than' but you can of another type, this is a sign. Either you misunderstand the one, you misunderstand yourself, or socionics is all for naught.

[UDP]

I do NOT know any ESEs that are particularly better at Ti and Ne, compared to LIIs I know.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Mea]

it's weird really. there are attractive looking people from every quadra. so saying one quadra looking better than another just doesn't make sense.

[Expat]

Not necessarily. There are INFjs who are stronger in Te or/and Si as compared to some ESTj even though they are not in the ego blocks. In other words, been stronger in the fifth or sixth function does not make you your dual and you don't have to be strongest in the two functions in the ego block to be that type.

As UDP said, I get the impression that you're saying "good at" when you say "strong".

But, anyway, sticking to one person only. Let us take a supposed "INFj" who'd be "stronger" in Te and Si than in Ne and Fi. What would that mean, in practice? Among other things, it might mean that that INFj would be more confident in giving advice to others in Te than in Fi matters. It won't do to say s/he is confident, or good, in both - what matters is, in which one he's more confident. And if he's more confident on Te than on Fi, than, according to classical, model A, Augustan socionics, by definition he can't be an INFj.

The 5th function is called "dual-seeking function", because it's the area in which you are most likely to ask other for help with, or to at least ask for others their opinion as a way to reassure yourself.

If an "INFj" is more likely to do that in Fi matters than Te matters, then, simply put, he's not an INFj according to classical socionics and model A. No way around it. And I would wonder, then, according to which criteria it was decided that the person was an "INFj" in the first place.

To those who'd say "what about someone who'd be equally strong/good/confident in Te and Fi", I'd say that the person would still be likely to feel more confident in one than in the other, and that such a person would perhaps be something different from INFj or ESTj.

And to those who'd say "that doesn't work in reality", I go *shrug* and say that it works very well, provided that you type yourself and others correctly. Those who say "I am type so-and-so, but I think model A doesn't work" simply haven't truly understood socionics. They are using another form of typology, which may well work for their own purposes - it is simply not socionics.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Just the general gist of what Expat says, I thought I'd add..I don't see how someone can be stronger in other functions than those in their first two. That sort of thing suggests they are a different type to me, or simply at the least that they aren't being themselves, I reckon.

[XoX]

Xox: You quoted me and said you didn't know what I meant by something that is nowhere in my quote. . .

Well, that thing was in quotes but it actually didn't imply that it was your exact quote. Sort of. Hard to explain. Anyways the "incomplete" word (or whatever it was) was the most important one. Nah, just forget about that quote.

Your scenario is interesting, and I'm wondering why you would think that would happen, as I've never done anything like that to you before.

You haven't but then again I haven't done such things either. And because I haven't done such things you haven't done such things. But if I did then you would too and the scenario would become a reality. So essentially that scenario is an alternative reality than can be unleashed or kept on leash. However, now the scenario has been revealed i.e. the alternative reality has been introduced into the current reality. This has changed the current reality and thus the scenario is unlikely to happen like that anymore. You can perceive a possible future, then make "the here and now" aware of that future which can kill or enforce the trend leading to that future. In this case it killed that future and created a new one. Either that or I'm just making things up.

It seems that many people are misunderstanding what I've said, and where I'm coming from. Either I am extremely bad at explaining myself, or there are a lot of assumptions being made.

Or both. Hah.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Creepy-Cyclops]

bleh. I don't actually believe I'm bad at explaining things.

Explain..

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Creepy-Cyclops]

I'll just telepathically send you the info. There you go, everything you need to know. If you didn't get it, then it must just be bad reception on your end, because my transmitter is working fine.

Sorry i've got the tinfoil wrapped around my head

[Christy B]

Can suck a dick….

Idiotic. Alcoholic. Egotistic. Chauvinistic.

With all the foresight of a lobotomized cycloptic ogre, and a sense of propriety that includes slugging back can after can of Budweiser beer and groping toward the closest female form.

LSE: You can suck a fat dick and swallow.

[1981slater]

It seems you feel a bit disappointed

[redbaron]

[Warlord]

Can suck a dick….

Idiotic. Alcoholic. Egotistic. Chauvinistic.

With all the foresight of a lobotomized cycloptic ogre, and a sense of propriety that includes slugging back can after can of Budweiser beer and groping toward the closest female form.

LSE: You can suck a fat dick and swallow.

haha