The "ambivert" issue - conflicts between Socionic and Classical E/I

[Pallas]

As an introvert extratim I used to think the idea of introversion and extraversion in psychology was nonsense since my scores on things like MBTI and Big 5 were all over the place from one extreme to another, which I related to an extravert introtim and got hearty agreement. Then, I learned socionics and looked back in shame. The whole "50% of the population is ambiverts" is easily explainable in terms of socionics if everyone gets introvert/extravert and introtim/extratim at random, and then only introvert intratrim and extravert extratim are actually considered introverts and extraverts with the rest as ambiverts, but I haven't posted that before because I thought it was obvious and wanted to focus on other things. The irritating thing is that apparently introtims are allowed to call themselves introverts while acting extremely gregarious and outgoing, but I have to call myself an ambivert because introvert extratims are

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THIS IS DISCRIMINATION! DISCRIMINATION I SAY!

P.S. Gotta love how the first example of introvert extratim is ol' Adi...

[Petter]

As an introvert extratim I used to think the idea of introversion and extraversion in psychology was nonsense since my scores on things like MBTI and Big 5 were all over the place from one extreme to another, which I related to an extravert introtim and got hearty agreement. Then, I learned socionics and looked back in shame. The whole "50% of the population is ambiverts" is easily explainable in terms of socionics if everyone gets introvert/extravert and introtim/extratim at random, and then only introvert intratrim and extravert extratim are actually considered introverts and extraverts with the rest as ambiverts, but I haven't posted that before because I thought it was obvious and wanted to focus on other things. The irritating thing is that apparently introtims are allowed to call themselves introverts while acting extremely gregarious and outgoing, but I have to call myself an ambivert because introvert extratims are...

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/intro...ork-kurt-cagle

"Perhaps about 60% of all people are extraverted, with perhaps 25% then being introverted and 15% being ambiverted. "

Are you saying that there are extroverted INTJs, INFJs, ISFJs etc (in MBTI)?

Do you claim that an introtim in Socionics can be an extroverted type in MBTI?

[Pallas]

Are you saying that there are extroverted INTJs, INFJs, ISFJs etc (in MBTI)?

Do you claim that an introtim in Socionics can be an extroverted type in MBTI?

Yes and yes. I don't live in ivory-towerland and I know a lot of people who do these tests and discuss them (it seems to be a popular conversation topic generally). And as I said, I got both introvert types and extravert types in MBTI, sometimes very high scores either direction (based on whether I'd rather read a book or go to a party at the time, since that seems to be what those questions are about). So logically either one or the other would have to be true, but I think both are because MBTI is just kind of nonsense...

Those statistics are also pretty outdated, and the article doesn't describe real people.

[Petter]

Yes and yes. I don't live in ivory-towerland and I know a lot of people who do these tests and discuss them (it seems to be a popular conversation topic generally). And as I said, I got both introvert types and extravert types in MBTI, sometimes very high scores either direction (based on whether I'd rather read a book or go to a party at the time, since that seems to be what those questions are about). So logically either one or the other would have to be true, but I think both are because MBTI is just kind of nonsense...

Those statistics are also pretty outdated, and the article doesn't describe real people.

Okay, so you are saying that confirmed extroverts sometimes test as INTJ, INFJ or ISFJ etc. But you are not saying that a confirmed extrovert can actually have Ni as the dominant function in MBTI, or a Leading white information aspect in Socionics, right?

[Pallas]

Okay, so you are saying that confirmed extroverts sometimes test as INTJ, INFJ or ISFJ etc. But you are not saying that a confirmed extrovert can actually have Ni as the dominant function in MBTI, or a Leading white information aspect in Socionics, right?

Well, I think MBTI is nonsense but if it weren't, then no, and the same goes for introverts testing as ENTJ, ENFJ, ESFJ etc. since in socionics (as well as even recent statistics outside of socionics) there are a lot more introverts and "extraverted until proven otherwise" is a bad idea. As to the latter, that's a logical contradiction, since socionics introversion and extraversion are defined by the leading function, not by how socially extraverted someone acts. There are a lot of IEE social introverts and SLI social extraverts, for example, and even social ambiverts (there seem to be a lot of EIE social ambiverts here, for instance).

Also this: http://www.sociotype.com/tools/statistics/

[Petter]

Well, I think MBTI is nonsense

Why do you think MBTI is nonsense?

but if it weren't, then no, and the same goes for introverts testing as ENTJ, ENFJ, ESFJ etc.

Good

since in socionics (as well as even recent statistics outside of socionics) there are a lot more introverts and "extraverted until proven otherwise" is a bad idea.

Are there more introverts than extroverts in Socionics? Can you provide an article that supports this view?

As to the latter, that's a logical contradiction, since socionics introversion and extraversion are defined by the leading function

No, it is not. Intratimness and extratimness is defined by the Leading function. See post 21 (including link)

, not by how socially extraverted someone acts. There are a lot of IEE social introverts and SLI social extraverts, for example, and even social ambiverts (there seem to be a lot of EIE social ambiverts here, for instance).

Can you define "social extraversion"?

Also this: http://www.sociotype.com/tools/statistics/

What are you referring to?

[Petter]

This is SSS's view:

Extraversion is the attitude, i.e. "the movement of interest directed to the object". Extrovert is the sequence of aspects: BWBW|WBWB