article in .doc format.
Bukalov on the dimensionality of functions
article in .doc format.
Last edited by xerx; 10-12-2008 at 05:31 AM.
This is what I was trying to explain in XXXx thread.Originally Posted by jxrtes
Here is the link to the Russian article in .doc format. Because you'll have to copy and paste repeatedly into an online translator, I was courteous enough to provide a slightly cleaned up machine translation further down this page.Apparently, for all you skeptics (ahem... Gamma NTs) out there, not that you'll be convinced by this alone or anything, but dimensionality is something that's widely popular with Russian socionists in typing clients right now.
The dimensionality of functions is one of many first steps necessary to understanding model B. I have yet to track down a definitive article on model B, but from what I gather, it at least synthesizes the concept of a function's dimensionality with the whole +/- thing. So far as I can tell (but I could be wrong), all the references to model B having five dimensional functions is due to the concept of dimensionality. And all the talk about model B being a four dimensional model has to do with +/- adding a fourth dimension to the already accepted standard dichotomies of E/I, S/N, T/E.
There is one more piece of information about model B that I have come across but cannot find any complete articles concerning - model B accounts for subtypes by each person having two rings of information metabolism (superficially similar to how dual-type theory looks like). The inner ring determines type, whereas the outer ring is flexible and seems to dualize or identify with the child's parents or environment. No word as to whether subtype can change.
Now then, on to the concept of dimensionality. There are eight different dimensions, only five of which any given function can have. Four dimensions are conscious dimensions that are information vectors, whereas the other four are unconscious dimensions that are energy vectors.
A short description of each dimension is procided in the article down the page. Here is the link to a second Russian article that talks in depth about dimensions and gives examples. I would recommend reading this one as well even if it is a bit long. link
All functions have five dimensions independent of their place in model A. Each function has a mix of conscious and unconscious dimensions. No function has all conscious or all unconscious dimensions. The total number of dimensions is eight (t,s,N,I,E,Se,Ne,id)
-1st function has 4 conscious (t,s,N,I) and 1 unconscious (id) subdued dimension
-2nd function has 3 conscious (s,N,I) and 2 unconscious (id,Ne) subdued
-3rd function has 2 conscious (N,I) and 3 unconscious (id,Ne,Se) subdued
-4th function has 1 conscious (I) and 4 unconscious (id,Ne,Se,E) subdued
-5th function has 1 unconscious (id) and 4 conscious (I,N,s,t) subdued
-6th function has 2 unconscious (id, Ne) and 3 conscious (I,N,s) subdued
-7th function has 3 unconscious (id,Ne,Se) and 2 conscious (I,N) subdued
-8th function has 4 unconscious (id,Ne,Se,E) and 1 conscious (I) subdued
here is a diagram from the article:
An important application of this theory is in the observation of relations between types. Take conflictors for example. Your polr only has 1 conscious dimension (I). Your conflictor's 1st function has 4 dimensions. You get overwhelmed by the sheer size of the information coming from your conflictor.
Why is it that duals easily accept information from each other? This is because the 5th and 6th functions have the exact same dimensions as the 1st and 2nd, making information transfer between vital and mental blocks a piece of cake.
Apparently there are already socionicists (?) all over the ideas.. with good details and models.
I think that draws all my work; and really all the work on this board, to a close.
good article, thanks for posting. you kind of... relieved my obsessional neurosis, to a certain degree, with this.
Bukalov's fifth dimension is just a complicated way of saying that the conscious Ego and the subconscious SuperId are linked to each other, on occasion. If this wasn't the case, noone would be aware of the subconscious and psychologists would be out of a job.
Last edited by Enters Laughing; 04-17-2008 at 06:00 PM.
Well from that angle it makes sense then. But someone should tell Bukalov that most psychologists don't know to define a dimension that way.A higher dimension constitutes a program which has an awareness of all the broader movements of a lower dimension. And fwiw, I'm happy that the article helped you to resolve your obsessional neurosis.
And the math was, again, a travesty. Most psychologists do not do math.
I'd never thought of that.
the word dimension seems kind of misleading; because the number of dimensions a particular thing is, is dependent on how you choose to organize it.. and you could look at the same information and find a way to see it as either two dimensional, or four dimensional... etc. a better word would be .. tiered
Am I right in thinking that three dimensional functions are spontaneous because they are anxious over what might happen next? (because they lack the time dimension?)
In that case, 2D functions would, lacking the presumably 3D characteristic of "permanence", see reality through an unstable, malleable lense: the person would have no observance of said function as being in any way reliable, seeing it as completely moulded by circumstance and dependent on the same. And if the function was unidimensional? Then I would imagine it having no relation even between its aspects, much like we consider Se traits in classical physics: points on a numerical line, reaching upward or downward. This is why this theory has the potential to be somewhat frightening: it becomes impossible to know if your assessment of what a function "is" is the right one therefore.
INTp-Ni ego block: Si>Te/Fe>Ni
ISFj-Si ego block: Ni>Fe/Te>Si (and that is the order of the INTps superego block functions)
there is a one dimensional awareness of one another here
Si>Te/Fe>Ni compared to..
Ne>Fi/Ti>Se
There is a four dimensional awareness...
as you follow each function along step by step, you are watching whether the information is "compatible" with the relative other information function...
Boukalov: The dimension of the functions of information metabolism
Original - There:
http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/pdf/as-p203.pdf
Here is the translation taken from google translator:
Boukalov AV
The dimension
FUNCTIONS OF INFORMATION METABOLISM
Introduced the concept of dimension functions of information metabolism.
The dimension of an information metabolism is determined by the location function
A model and is described by four vectors: globality, the situations, norms and personal
experience. The notion of dimension is easy to explain the nature and specificity of intertype
relationships that are open in Socionics.
Key words: mental functions as an information
metabolic model of the psyche, the dimension function, Socionics, intertype relationships.
As you know, in the typology of Jung and Socionics in models A and B, the degree of
development of mental functions, or functions of information metabolism is not the same.
In particular, on a conscious level in models A or B stands 4 functions with decreasing
capacity: software, realizable, and contact the place of least resistance
(Junior). A similar proportion and function are located in the vital ring.
It is known that the space occupied by FIM, defines the role of the above functions. Arise
However, the following questions:
1) how the contents of the same PPM (intuition, logic, ethics, and sensory)
depending on where in the model?
2) that defines the roles of these functions in the mental and vital rings?
The author has established that the perceived space of mental function,
standing in the first place, consists of 4 measurements or coordinates. These coordinates,
submitted to mutually perpendicular vectors, the following:
1) coordinate (vector) time t
(Vector or global);
2) coordinate (vector), the momentary situation aspect of the function S
;
3) coordinate (vector) norms or cultural upbringing, customs and accepted in society
N
;
4) coordinate (vector) I
(Or I
), Which includes self-esteem, personal experiences,
intrinsic values and desires.
We emphasize that these vectors can also be arranged on the fractal
where necessary, more detailed analysis.
In the mental ring on intuitive extravert ( (ILE)) are
the following functions:
→ I + → L-
or
R- F +
Turning to the notations, we can write the equation for the reduced
mental ring:
Y = aI - bL + cF - dR (4)
2
(3)
3
(2)
4
(1)
As we see the functions appearing in different places have different dimensions.
Similarly, we can consider all the PPM, depending on their dimensions or location
Model A. The first function contains all four vectors and is therefore most
developed:
The second function contains three vectors, excluding the time vector and globality.
Vector situation allows her to creatively and effectively operate in a momentary situation.
The third function contains only vectors of norms and personal experience, and is therefore
normalized by the corresponding aspect (in this case, strong-willed sensorics 􀀟, and
sensitive to changes in the situation or the need for a global assessment of this
aspect.
The fourth function, the place of least resistance is just the vector I
on
relevant aspect. Therefore, it is sensitive to any unusual
stimulus.
If, from a physical point of view, the mental basis compared to some
space, the vital basis of the space can be mapped, which involves
mental, that is, they are in a relationship of complementarity. Now consider the general
8 (16)-dimensional basis. It each vector corresponds to the mental level of the conjugate
he vector of the vital level. Vector of global reach and complementary paired energy vector
(E
), Which operates the body. This energy is understood as the energy of the libido (libido) or
psychic energy, in the sense that it considered the CG Jung. Vector of the situation (S
) In
consciousness of the world or the vector of the situation or condition of the human body (ES
);
vector of social norms (N
) Corresponds to the conjugate vector of the physiological norm
the body, limiting its capabilities and instincts as norms of behavior of the organism (EN
)
excessive exposure to this vector lead to autonomic manifestations in the body;
Finally: I am self-vector
(I
) Can be associated in the minds of the analogous vector in
unconscious, which expresses the aspirations and desires of the body, in fact, in this
context, it can be called id
(It), by analogy with the term Id, introduced by Freud, but
we have found a vector is denoted with a capital letter, since it is part of the
Id.
Anouther part - I'll show you in the next massage
In the vital basis of differentiation and reduction of dimension functions
is similar to the mental.
Consider all the FIM, standing at different places in the vital ring ILE:
→ E6 → S5
or
T7 P8
Thus, the equation for the unconscious part of the vital ring (ILE)
can be written as follows:
Z = fS - kE + lT-mP4
(8)
3
(7)
2
(6)
1
(5)
At the same time the most powerful of the vital function of the model is the eighth, but the most
weak (and therefore suggestive) - the fifth function.
It may seem that there is a contradiction, due to the fact that in our model
B1 [2] direction of the flow of information vital to the ring is similar to
mental ring of the most powerful features of the weakest, but in the opposite direction,
compared to model A. This is consistent with already being found
units of consciousness and unconscious on a scale of rationality-irrationality. However,
marked patterns hold when considering the circulation of information
unconscious functions of the conscious aspects of the installation or described in Model A,
and, as the movement of information in the mind and the unconscious is defined
compensatory principle, then the apparent circulation of conscious attitudes in
vital ring looks back true, vital circulation. Thus,
there is a more general model B, which includes the Model A and B1 as private
aspects. Its features include:
1) B contains a folded model as model A, 8 FIM, but it is not flat, and 3 -
dimensional. Given the character, function, detailed model B consists of 16 FIM and constructed in
4-dimensional space;
for every function from first to eighth (sixteenth) are considered as
conscious (mental) and unconscious (vital) installation. These
are established on the basis of the bases of the 4 (8) and experimental vectors of 4 (8 -
mi) of vital vectors forming a common 8 (16)-dimensional basis;
3) the center coordinates of the vectors associated with the function of consciousness c (*) or the Self;
4) the presence of vital structures of the vectors shows the connection between consciousness and body,
mental and physiological.
Understanding of mental structures in Freud, Jung and
A. Augustinavichiute
Thus, we have a double superbazis
Psychology and Socionics structures. On the one hand,
a set of 8 (16) FIM introduced by Jung and Augustinavichiute,
on the other - is 8 (16) component vector basis,
we proposed. If the first describes the semantics
mental spaces, the second - their hierarchical
ordering in the mental continuum. The presence of this base
forms the structure of the psyche TIM. Note also that
some aspects of this basis appeared in various models of the psyche.
Thus, for Freud it levels the ego, superego and the id can be associated with the following set
vectors:
Thus, if Freud distinguished between the structure of consciousness, the structure of the unconscious
it does not exist. In his Id in our model includes id
, E S
, E N
, E
.
In CG Jung described the structure of mental model containing vital to
archaic consciousness level installation:
In Model A Augustinavichiute also considered only the perceived
mental and vital installations, however, following Freud highlighted the levels of the psyche Ego,
S. Ego, Id, S. Id and closed mental and vital ring.
In the model of the author (B1 or B) All 8 (16) functions have the mental and vital
installation of consciousness and unconsciousness. This model represents a complete
system open with respect to the dyad, quadra, socion.
From an examination of a vector basis of relations are clear differences between the ego and
Superego in models A or B: in the superego are normalized functions, although the model
Freud, it can not be identified - it is easy to describe a set of model vectors.
In model B the sum of the vectors for each function is constant and equal to five. So
, the total dimension of each function is equal to five. At the same time, decreasing the dimension
conscious (unconscious) of the vector space corresponds to an increasing
dimension of the unconscious (conscious) of the vector space setting. We write
Now the symbolic equation that leads to getting FIM dimension: if we accept
that there is a common space of FIM, its dimension is 8x4 = 32 (with signs
16x4 = 64 features): Z = Y32
We already know this.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
So what? What kind of vector model A you know: Simple version or advanced version?
There's so muchin this. So much analysis makes my head hurt.
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Annoying, isn't it? Yaaroslav makes me think he's aThere's so much. Too bad those don't exist.
I knowThere's so muchI see a wall of text, my mind can't absorb it, this is bad...
Annoying, isn't it? Yaaroslav makes me think he's aI'm thinking extreme Ti subtype... I've seen it before...
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
Another translation request, I wish I was a better translator but better to add it to a list then to leave it forgotten.
I want to just mention @siuntal because of all the great translation work that's being done!
That's very interesting. I think they are correlated to Feldman's, Graves', and Morler's Levels.
I just don't like Bukalov's compliance to subtypes. Even if they even exist they're no environmental because (for example) I'm extrovert subtype, and environment forced me to live like an introvert.
And, I think Bukalov made a mistake on making dimensionality of conscious and subconscious functions non-symmetrical.
Last edited by machintruc; 02-12-2008 at 11:28 AM.
Got any articles on this fabled "vector model"...? It seems to be prerequisite for a proper understanding of this article.The vector model, developed by the author in 1989, for a period of 10 years actively is already used by specialists in sotsionike, since it makes it possible to easily and accurately describe the individual internal structure of the functions of Tim, and also to simulate and to describe intertipnye relations. From it it is possible to derive mathematical equations of the type as the totalities of the functions of psycho-information spaces [ 2, 5 ]. The relative length of vectors in the functions for a model of the type makes possible to build and to describe the individual portrait (vector diagram) of personality BY IT, which finds wide application in the practical work of the international institute of sotsioniki [ 6 ]. The collections of these vectors are explained and is described the origin of the psychos-form, empirically proposed in. V. gulenko [ 7 ]: dominant, kreativnuyu, that normalizes and harmonic. Let us emphasize that these psychos-form are not connected with the psychos-form S. dellinger [ 1 ] and are the additional characteristic of personality.
One thing is clear from this: Boukalov is no Augusta. Augusta knew to shut up about the math; Bukalov doesn't.
I was following him kinda until he started using mathematical notation... after which point I found myself too focused on trying to recognize the letters to take in the text. The mathematical equations do not belong anywhere save in his private little notes. It's a very far-out model: he's putting Jung's functions all on level with the blocks. Now that I think about it, it's not a bad idea, because they are all functions of the brain after all. The blocks do appear to be distinct from the functions; it would appear from my standpoint that the blocks are the prizes the functions seek. The better the block, the better the information you can get and the more useful "you" (speaking of a function here) are to the personality.
But now wait, t is Ni, therefore t shouldn't be there, should it? Eh... I think this guy needs to back off the physics and think more in terms of psyche; but he's just shooting from his Ni id after all.
No, Here t is not White Intuition, but the dimension of Time
find "dimensionality of functions" in Wikisocion
I don't think functions don't lack vectors. I think such "lacking" vectors are just very difficult to use.
Five dimensional ?
and what are the unconscious vectors ?
Oh come on, it's not like you're actually understanding any of this. You're just listening to the piper.
I don't see how anyone can gather from what is divulged in the article what the hell it is you're supposed to be able to calculate with these vectors and math formulas. What is used as the input data? Are people just uncritically accepting the conclusions and concepts that the article gives without even knowing what this vector model "does"...?
The stuff in the article is definitely groundbreaking if it can be used to reach definite results. Unfortunately it's not only potentially groundbreaking; it's also highly dubious.
Bukalov appears to be postulating by this that there exists such a thing as psychic space. I agree with labcoat that this notion is exceedingly dubious. Will, yes. Space, no.
What pisses me off about it is that he had explained his reasoning in a way that he KNOWS most people will be unable to follow or understand, even among socionists. He's grandstanding in a way. As I say, typical Bukalov.
Am I right in thinking that those "dimensions" break down to "there are five ways the functions can use information and it turns out not all of them have access to all the ways"?
Mitin thought of the Golden Proportion.
What the hell are you saying?
I refuse to participate in the formulization of socionics. This is not physics, but psyche. Period. We don't have to deal in the psyche with all the damn "color" and "spin" inexplicable Te crap they have in physics. In socionics all the functions are equal; in physics Se, Ni, and Te hold court regardless of how much they square with the other functions. If the facts say X is Y, then it doesn't matter if X *should* be B by Ti's count: it's Y. Jung and Freud both forsook any movement toward a mathematization of the psyche, and it will take a stronger man than Bukalov to lead it down that dark road.
Bukalov is shamelessly self-indulging himself by approaching socionics the way Einstein approaches relativity. That we can all see.
Blech.
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