Lao Tzu (the Taoism guy)

[Logos]

That's another topic. Let's just say that I have studied both his philosophy and his life quite intensively for a couple of weeks quite recently, and Schopenhauer exhibits all the typical ILI traits to a high degree. His personality and life attitude almost scream ILI, actually.

My mistake. I meant in regards to Lao Tzu, but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on Schopenhauer in another thread.

[Phaedrus]

My mistake. I meant in regards to Lao Tzu, but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on Schopenhauer in another thread.

I can not assure you that Lao Tzu was an ILI. He could very well have been one, but I am only sure of Schopenhauer and Pirsig.

[Phaedrus]

Taoism is, in my opinion, undoubtably IP. It seems to be a combination of and .

I agree. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[munenori2]

The Tao is very clear, even in it's first passage, but sometimes people mistake the Tao for the names that are given to it.

Word, brother. Though perhaps Lee saw in Taoism a missing part of himself (under the assumption that he was probably an ESxp) and saw the Ip side as the completion. That probably sounds quite ridiculous (what? Was Taoism INxp all of a sudden? I leave that open) but it's about what he *saw* in it. Not the words or names but what is. Unadorned simplicity, lacking in the intricacies of overdone thought or action (wu-wei).

Though I laughed to myself that the last sentence of Mr. Lee's sounded an awful lot like Wittgenstein and throwing aside the ladder (who I believe to be INTp).

[Logos]

One of the reasons why I am curious about this is that the goal of Taoism is essentially to obtain a state of being in relation to the world and whether or not this relates to statics and dynamics. I am hoping that the purpose of these threads becomes more obvious (though somehow I doubt it will without some clarification) with the next few people I end up posting in threads.

[munenori2]

Taoism is dynamic fo sho.

Ep/Ip, though not limited in that respect. That's sort of it's thang, IMO.

[munenori2]

Are you sure?
Ep is static... Ip is dynamic.

Ip is dynamic.

Ep needs dynamism.

The quote made me think that Lee had found something he did not have, rather than had it from the get go. That likely sounds retarded.

[munenori2]

Did you want to say that you believed that the Tao is irrational rather then dynamic?

That probably works. Something perceptually given than the result of so much thinking. Not to say that irrationals don't think, but I hope you see what I'm prodding along at. Though I do think it dynamic.

Edit: ok, yeah, what you said!

[munenori2]

But many would say that Bruce Lee is static, does it make Taoism static? Or is the seeking of dynamic what makes the Tao dynamic... then would all Taoist be static.

I know it is a subjective opinion that Taoism is dynamic, but I would like to know why.

While the principles which underlie the world we experience are static, the 'form' of it is a dynamic thing. Perhaps I'm merely betraying my own prejudices on the matter in saying that, but the Tao is what runs and generates all that we see, hear, feel, etc. These are merely ephemeral elements however, playing on a pattern of what we may call the 'natural law', somewhat equivalent to the 'logos' of Greek philosophy. In other words, what we experience in the apparent is in a process of constant change (what would be most apparent to a dynamic type, in my estimation).

Where Taoism excels, I think, is that it goes beyond the appearances towards something more firm or permanent. This is probably more of a static perspective, but then Taoism always struck me as a movement from these appearances towards something deeper (the growth in understanding of a dynamic type, rather than the other way around). That certainly doesn't remove the merit such a philosophy would possess for those walking the other way, in fact it probably strikes them as something unique, creative, and speaking to a part of them that has always seemed dormant, latent, or however such a person might describe it to themselves. Thus I see in it a form of dualism (in socionics and in the more common usage of the term) of the human condition.

Though, as you say, this is a subjective opinion of it all. I apologize if I'm being vague or unclear.

[Pookie]

One of the reasons why I am curious about this is that the goal of Taoism is essentially to obtain a state of being in relation to the world and whether or not this relates to statics and dynamics..

Fields > Objects.

To be flexible and mindful to the ways of the world in order to be in harmony with it is Dynamic.

This is probably why multiple people will say that Taoism is reflective of an IP temperament.

[Phaedrus]

To call the Tao merely or is about the worst thing to say about that which does not invite distinction.

I agree. But Tao is not Taoism. Taoism reflects and . When it comes to Tao itself I refer to Wittenstein's Tractatus, proposition 7.

[Phaedrus]

If Taoism reflects and ... then is Taoism the reflection or what is reflected?

Neither of course.

[eunice]

In summary, he seems to advocate an anti-authoritarian movement and has a relaxed and live-and-let-live attitude which I associate with Delta. Moreover, he has weak Fe and Ti preferences:

-The more laws and order are made prominent, the more thieves and robbers there will be.
-The true free living human-being is the one that achieves his dream without depending on someone.
-When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everybody will respect you.

[eunice]

And who do you think make laws concerning political correctness.. is it Alpha? Beta? Gamma? Delta?

Beta, especially ISTjs.

[Logos]

Beta, especially ISTjs.

I remember a discussion with Expat, liveandletlive, and I, and we thought that it was both a Beta & Delta thing, albeit for difference reasons.

[Kill4Me]

EII-Ne

[Logos]

Are you trying to box Taoism into some sort of practice or training or behavior?

Taoism as a practice is a oxymoron.

By any chance are you Taoist?

[Logos]

Am I? If I am a Taoist then there are 6 billion Taoists.. give or take a few.

Just curious as you seemed to be knowledgeable about it, but it was a sort of knowledge from experience angle.

Taoism is dynamic fo sho.

Ep/Ip, though not limited in that respect. That's sort of it's thang, IMO.

Interesting that you should say that here, though hkkmr is right: EP is static.

[munenori2]

By the way, I love this topic and this discussion, guys. Kudos to Logos for bringing it up and hkkmr for forcing me to consider things.

[Logos]

By the way, I love this topic and this discussion, guys. Kudos to Logos for bringing it up and hkkmr for forcing me to consider things.

Then I would also recommend digging up and reviving the Zeno (the Stoicism guy) thread and talking about how Socionics relates to Stoicism.

[munenori2]

I understand a bit about Taoism, but I know nothing of it.

Has anything truer been said?

[Logos]

In my view, Taoism could be summarised only in it being (one) way of coming into harmony with the Tao.

Does that not imply a state?

I actually said that I think Taoism is IP, which is more clear than it being or (and it's not necessarily clearly either, though I can see where those who say it is one of the two are coming from. I think might be devalued to some extent -- or at least leading-).

Is it really clear that it is IP?

Common themes in Taoist literature include:

• Conserving energy
• Acting only when necessary, knowing when to act
• Wu Wei -- acting without expending energy unnecessarily (roughly!)
• Taking a passive, purely reactive stance in relation to the universe (this implies an assumption that the universe is Dynamic, else a reactive stance isn't really necessary)

All of the above should be recognisably IP. I can't think of any example that would actually contradict that.

Is that really easily recognizable as IP?

Where did this come from?

Typical characteristics

• calm, balanced and inert
• "unflappable"
• rigid but not very fast gait
• may appear passive-aggressive
• usually very stable mood
• more reactive than active
• little inclination to fidget during long periods of inactivity

[Phaedrus]

Is it really clear that it is IP?

Yes. It is extremely clear that it is IP. You can use it as a test to see if you understand the IP temperament correctly.

[Logos]

Yes. It is extremely clear that it is IP. You can use it as a test to see if you understand the IP temperament correctly.

But Salawa's listing of why this is an IP philosophy reflects more closely an IJ temperament.

[Phaedrus]

But Salawa's listing of why this is an IP philosophy reflects more closely an IJ temperament.

Actually no. Let's compare them:

Salawa (correctly) listed these Taoist themes:

• Conserving energy
• Acting only when necessary, knowing when to act
• Wu Wei -- acting without expending energy unnecessarily (roughly!)
• Taking a passive, purely reactive stance in relation to the universe (this implies an assumption that the universe is Dynamic, else a reactive stance isn't really necessary)

You responded by listing typical IJ characteristics:

• calm, balanced and inert
• "unflappable"
• rigid but not very fast gait
• may appear passive-aggressive
• usually very stable mood
• more reactive than active
• little inclination to fidget during long periods of inactivity

The IP and the IJ temperaments are similar in many respects, but the bolded part in Salawa's list is inconsistent with the IJ temperament, and the bolded parts in your IJ list are inconsistent with the IP temperament.

[Logos]

How is the "Taking a passive, purely reactive stance in relation to the universe" in Salawa's list inconsistent with the IJ's "more reactive than active" point?

[Logos]

But how well would the EP temperament in general match up with Taoist principles and goals?