SLEs/ESTps: The Conquered vs. The Loved

[zenbrat]

ESTp's thread reminded me of this dynamic with the type...

Some ESTp's bore easily, but rarely let go of the people they have pursued and conquered (thereby getting their hidden agenda satisfied). How would "The Conquered" know if the ESTp experiences an emotional connection to the person, or if they are keeping the person around as just another convenient source of 'love'?

Strangely, they often act more enamored with their random sources than they do with the people they truly care about. This tends to push the 'important' people away because they misinterpret the ESTp's emotional connection - they may feel like "(s)he [ESTp] likes that other person more than me".... which, again, may be completely untrue.

And... why do they do this? How can "The Loved" be sure of their dominant place in the ESTp's life? What are the signs?

Or am I way off base here?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I know I can get intensely jealous, especially if it's an ESTp guy I like. =p

But more times than not, the ESTp usually chooses to focus on me in private one on one conversations and nobody else. However, if there is another INFp I suppose I'd get competitive. To be honest though, that has luckily never happened. Even though idealistically I want us to like get lost in each other's eyes and be all romantic and exclude everybody else, I know that can't be the case and we have other people in our lives. But all I ask is that just for one day- just one mother fucking goddamn day -- to go how I want it to go. Like an INFp perfect day or something.

If I really like somebody, I need to get alone with them. Even if I really like them just in a friend way. It's like this urge. I have to see where people stand intimately.

An ESTp will usually let me know that they're fond of me, like ESTps on this forum via private e-mails. Gender roles and other shit can get in the way, however.

[yeves]

ESTp's thread reminded me of this dynamic with the type...

Some ESTp's bore easily, but rarely let go of the people they have pursued and conquered (thereby getting their hidden agenda satisfied). How would "The Conquered" know if the ESTp experiences an emotional connection to the person, or if they are keeping the person around as just another convenient source of 'love'?

Strangely, they often act more enamored with their random sources than they do with the people they truly care about. This tends to push the 'important' people away because they misinterpret the ESTp's emotional connection - they may feel like "(s)he [ESTp] likes that other person more than me".... which, again, may be completely untrue.

And... why do they do this? How can "The Loved" be sure of their dominant place in the ESTp's life? What are the signs?

Or am I way off base here?

I got a very different impression from this one SLE woman. She protects the people who are close to her but she's abrasive or suspicious towards those who are hostile or unknown to her. She doesn't get enamored with "random Fe sources" but is rather suspicious of random people trying to get on her good side (vulnerable Fi).

[marooned]

= I care about you vs you don't mean anything to me, it can't be both

[EUDAEMONIUM]

This was an interesting thread its good to dig up this discussion again.

Aggressors can seem like conquers because they tend to see someone they want and they want to "have" them. This kind of falls apart when you're talking about women because they have different social expectations.

Se types see things as us vs them because Se types see things as a struggle. The world is a contest, filled with competitors. In this Se world, you can't do things on your own, so you need a team you can trust.

I don't think Se types are more likely to cheat or play the field. I think alpha SFs could be the most likely ones to play love games but that's probably not fair to say either.

Beta NFs will likely know when their ST isn't interested or is losing interest. This depends on the relationship as to how they would know, how they lost interest, and what would be done about it.

I think Beta NFs can be as fickle as STs though.

Beta NFs will control the relationship and can be pretty possessive themselves. I saw earlier in the thread someone said they can get very jealous and competitive with other IEIs around.

Beta NFs will likely verbalize this jealousy more often than a Fi type who could stew about it later and then eventually want to end everything after thinking the SLE doesn't actually care about them.

SLEs and LSI as well can see Fi types as a minefield, they never know what is going to set them off.

In platonic friendships, this has happened more than in romantic relationships.

I remember a girl SEI and a guy ILE at my work were the first people on this new team that had been implemented within the company. Once new members began to come on board (me included) the team grew from two people to 5.

A new girl (likely ESI imo) came on board and it was obvious that this guy had a crush on her. He would insist on being the one to train her on everything, no one else wanted to do it so he got to.

One day I came into the office and the ILE and ESI were giggling about something the SEI asked what they were laughing at and the ILE said he can't tell her.

The SEI asked why and he answered that he doesn't know how she would react to it, it's not work appropriate, she would be offended.

SEI says "are you serious? We've been working together for a long time (in other words "longer than you've known her") and you won't just show me the picture"

He never showed the picture. What an idiot. The ESI was so not into him. ILE was an insufferable asshole anyway, he thought he was the smartest person in the room.

Anyway, that's the sort of thing SLEs wouldn't understand, NFs would make this very upfront since Fe likes more overt displays of affection and attachment.

[Animal]

You have to develop a sixth-sense about these things. Part of it comes with experience learning what to look for, and part of it is intuition. A lot of the time, this is the reason for the INFp's needlessly lukewarm approach to relationships, and part of what leads to the sort of frustration ESTP mentioned in her thread below this.

The main thing to ask yourself is: How does the ESTp treat you in relation to other potential "Fe-fixes" in his life? (And yes, the answer should be "Better.")

[zenbrat]

Hmmm... I think "better" treatment by an ESTp might be harder to define since they can be unintentionally harsh and coarse by nature. Plus, they purposely act/speak as though all aquaintances are equal in order to hide their emotional dependence on select individuals.

I'm not sure dual interaction includes much 'special treatment'. Duals don't have to work nearly as hard to maintain harmonious relations.

I'm not really having difficulty reading ESTp... but I thought it might help the uninitiated if we could provide tangible examples.

[lefty]

i dont totally understand what youre talking about, but sort of, but my first though upon reading this was that it'd make a great socionics article if you came to some conclusions about it and drew up an outline. i wish there was some socionics stuff being published and i end up censoring myself in this forum for fear the person or people in charge of it will capitalize on my ideas...luckily, though, most topics turn to shit before you can even make any headway to the real core of a topic and discover something new.

[FDG]

i end up censoring myself in this forum for fear the person or people in charge of it will capitalize on my ideas

ahahahahah

[lefty]

ahahahahah

you yourself, fdg, will never have that problem since you only make vague attempts at snazzy one-liners. in your case there's no intellectual property to protect.

[zenbrat]

[QUOTE=Baby;296730]While their Fi-PoLR + Fe-Mobilizing function may make them hard to read sometimes, I think you may be being a bit heavy handed in dealing out the "random source of Fe" as a category almost mutually exclusive of "actual caring." The line between them is sometimes hazy, yes. But no more hazy than any other aspect of dealing with human beings. Not to mention the fact that they can shift over time, depending on exposure and the depth of your intereraction. [QUOTE]

I may have made it sound intensely black and white but I do notice, however, that caring and love exist on different planes for SLE. There is an 'in' group and a 'satellite' group. The 'in' group is loved (clung to) for what the SLE appreciates about them as individuals, whereas the satellite group is cared about (loosely) based on how they support the SLE's self-image/agenda.

The SLE's that I hang out with tend to know a lot of people. But, there is a core group ('in' group) that they seek out and interact with daily. The satellite group is maintained (loosely) but ends up being 'party filler'. You only see the satellite group when they want to host a big party (or they're completely alone and bored because everyone in the 'in' group is busy - or horny and their 'in' girls/guys are busy).

[zenbrat]

Aren't most extraverts like that? They have a group of people they actually are close to and then a satellite group of "acquaintances" with whom they spend time when those close friends are nowhere to be found? This seems especially the case with extraverted irrationals, I find. I remember, actually, feeling like I was being "used" as a "go-to friendship fix" with an SEE that I knew one time who would show up every once in a while whenever the party scene slowed up.

Very true.

[Satan]

Aren't most extraverts like that? They have a group of people they actually are close to and then a satellite group of "acquaintances" with whom they spend time when those close friends are nowhere to be found? This seems especially the case with extraverted irrationals, I find. I remember, actually, feeling like I was being "used" as a "go-to friendship fix" with an SEE that I knew one time who would show up every once in a while whenever the party scene slowed up.

isn't everyone like that?

[Blaze]

There's an SLE I'm cool with. We hang out a LOT. People think we're serious yet we're openly seeing other people. But, he has this problem with trying to get his women to hang out together. This always goes horribly wrong.

4 times now I've born the brunt of female wrath because he invites other women over while I am there. Usually to parties and larger "football" gatherings - as he says, "it's not right to extend an invitation to one 'friend' but not the others". Once they see how SLE and I interact, they hate me .

huh. don't really blame their reaction seeing as how he's misleading them. what a waste of their fucking time, no? not that they should necessarily hate you, it's him they should be pissed at.

you're really ok with this?

[ScarlettLux]

Yup, found it.

Anyways, I'm not exactly sure how to respond to all of this, so I'll just give some general info.

The quickest way that someone can tell if I'm just keeping them around as a backup fix is if I immediately move to another group as soon as I see it. For example, if I'm sitting at a lunch table with the "satellite group" as Zenbrat put it, and then I see my core group, I'll figure out the best way to ditch the satellite group and move to the core group. I'm always careful when I do this though because I don't want to lose the satellite group if something happens with the core group. It's actually quite simple when you look at it that way - the group I like better is the group that has priority. Granted, the groups and people change over time, so the core group also changes with that. This is a general pattern that I always follow, though.

As for how to tell where you stand, you just have to be observant. First off, look for the types of things that I mentioned above, and that will give you a good outline of how much I care about you. Also, another very good indicator of whether you're a priority is the type of conversations that occur between you and a SLE (This applies much better for intelligent SLEs than stupid ones, so take that into consideration also). Put simply, if a SLE starts talking about a bunch of insightful but possibly controversial things with you, then you're definately on a good plane. What this basically means is 1) SLE knows that you're smart, so they don't worry about dumbing things down for you; 2) that they know you're not going to judge them for opening up about a particular subject that others would object to; and 3) they're testing whether or not they'll be able to confide in you in the future. For example, I have a good friend who is SLE, and one time he started telling me about how he goes through periods where he hates everything and everyone, and just locks himself in his room and does nothing but play WoW. He then started giving me reasons as for why this was occuring. Granted, that's only one example, but if a SLE tells you something more personal like that, then you know that they like you more than the average person.

On the opposite side of the coin, if you're just a fix, I'll be much more likely to talk with you in a very superficial manner. If you can't hold a good conversation with a SLE, it either means that they don't give a shit about you, or they're just stupid in general.

Hope this helped!

<3

[zenbrat]

Yep, what Herzy said

For example...

There's an SLE I'm cool with. We hang out a LOT. People think we're serious yet we're openly seeing other people. But, he has this problem with trying to get his women to hang out together. This always goes horribly wrong.

4 times now I've born the brunt of female wrath because he invites other women over while I am there. Usually to parties and larger "football" gatherings - as he says, "it's not right to extend an invitation to one 'friend' but not the others". Once they see how SLE and I interact, they hate me .

Problem is, he tends to satisfy his curiosity with a new 'interest' and quietly slides them into "satellite" category without letting them know it was a 2-time thing. They know he isn't looking for a wife, but I think he is just so 'nice' to them that it makes them believe they are special. So, a couple of satellites show up thinking that they received a very personal invitation.

So, the satellites sit there fuming while we play video games, scream at the tv, chat about old times, etc. All of the family and 'in' friends come in, greet me warmly, etc Next thing I know, some woman is storming out. SLE looks at me, smiles nervously, shrugs... I shake my head, laugh, and go back to getting my ass kicked on PS3.

No matter where we are, or who is around, we gravitate to each other's side. If I leave the room for more than 5 minutes, he comes to find me. If I sit more than a foot away from him, he moves to be next to me (or moves me to be next to him LOL). Sometimes I'm just doing my own thing and not thinking about it - he will call my name LOUDLY from across the room, crook his finger or ask me to "come here" in order to seat or hug me next to him.

And that is the difference.

[implied]

You have to develop a sixth-sense about these things. Part of it comes with experience learning what to look for, and part of it is intuition. A lot of the time, this is the reason for the INFp's needlessly lukewarm approach to relationships, and part of what leads to the sort of frustration ESTP mentioned in her thread below this.

The main thing to ask yourself is: How does the ESTp treat you in relation to other potential "Fe-fixes" in his life? (And yes, the answer should be "Better.")

christ have mercy.