Model Φ and Phitypes - machintruc's research

[Joy]

I should add that ILE could be another "most like" type for I. Basically it's an EP positivist.

[machintruc]

I should add that ILE could be another "most like" type for I. Basically it's an EP positivist.

No. A stereotype for Influence would be an ESE or an EIE. They're able to manipulate everyone, even the most tough-minded people such as LII's or LSI's.

[machintruc]

WARNING: semi-scientific reasoning - interpret with caution

characterized by difficulties in social interaction and by restricted, stereotyped interests and activities.

This means, respectively S- and Introtimness.

Remember the E-score of phitypes. Each Minus scores -1 and each Plus scores +1. For example, a 0+- scores 0, and a ++0 scores +2. The lowest the score is, the most the phitype is Introtim-like.

But here, as S- renders AS easier, we'll add an extra -1 for S-, and an extra +1 for S+, because -+- and --+ look more AS-like than +--. This is logical because S+ introverts look less autistic than S- introverts, and S- extroverts look more autistic than S+ extroverts.

Then, we have an autistic score for each phitype :

Sorted by phitype :

--- : -4
--0 : -3
--+ : -2
-0- : -3
-00 : -2
-0+ : -1
-+- : -2
-+0 : -1
-++ : 0
0-- : -2
0-0 : -1
0-+ : 0
00- : -1
000 : 0
00+ : +1
0+- : 0
0+0 : +1
0++ : +2
+-- : 0
+-0 : +1
+-+ : +2
+0- : +1
+00 : +2
+0+ : +3
++- : +2
++0 : +3
+++ : +4

Sorted by autistic score :

--- : -4

--0 : -3
-0- : -3

--+ : -2
-00 : -2
-+- : -2
0-- : -2

-0+ : -1
-+0 : -1
0-0 : -1
00- : -1

-++ : 0
0-+ : 0
000 : 0
0+- : 0
+-- : 0

00+ : +1
0+0 : +1
+-0 : +1
+0- : +1

0++ : +2
+-+ : +2
+00 : +2
++- : +2

+0+ : +3
++0 : +3

+++ : +4

If your score is negative, you're likely autistic, and if not, you're likely to be subject to false positive diagnosis. (diagnosed autistic by being actually non-autistic)

If your score is null, you may or may look superficially autistic, and be subject to false positive or false negative diagnosis.

If your score is positive, you're not likely autistic. If you actually are, you're likely to be subject of false negative diagnosis. (diagnosed non-autistic by being actually autistic)

For example, it's quite hard to say if a 0+- or a +-- is autistic or not.

[Joy]

No. A stereotype for Influence would be an ESE or an EIE. They're able to manipulate everyone, even the most tough-minded people such as LII's or LSI's.

Have you read the book, or just other people's descriptions of these types on their websites?

[machintruc]

Have you read the book, or just other people's descriptions of these types on their websites?

types are popularity-seeking by their nature

[Joy]

Read the book and then we'll talk.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964108003

[machintruc]

Read the book and then we'll talk.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964108003

I don't give a shitfuck of DISC, darling

[Joy]

Good.

[Joy]

No. A stereotype for Influence would be an ESE or an EIE. They're able to manipulate everyone, even the most tough-minded people such as LII's or LSI's.

Then, for everyone else, I'll respond to this. I's aren't manipulative. At least not any more so than any other temperament.

[machintruc]

I thought that (some) sociotypes could have more than 9-10 phitypes each, but that's from reading some sociotype-etype correlations you had listed somewhere before, where some of the sociotypes had like 6 possible etypes each or something. that would mean up to 18 possible phitypes for that sociotype, which would result in the number of total combinations to not equal dunbar's number.

did I miss something, sorry if I did (:

I don't exactly know. But I think, there's a certain amount of phitypes for each sociotype.

For example :

I'm LII 0+-
my dual is ESE ++0
my comparative is LSI -0+
and so on.

The 2nd most frequent phitypes for each sociotype, because I'm the second most frequent phitype for LII.

LII's are 00-, then 0+-.

[FDG]

What do you think would be good for a LIE +++? Generally I've found ESI +00 to be the best ( ESI sx 9)

[machintruc]

What do you think would be good for a LIE +++? Generally I've found ESI +00 to be the best ( ESI sx 9)

LIE +++ is quite a rare combination.

I think, a ESI --+ or 000 would suit you, because they're normative by their nature. Retards look less retarded when they're normalised (at least, Eights and Ones perceive Sevens as retards who need to be led)

I don't think ESI's can be Intimate Nines. Besides, +00 means Social Two. +-0 is quite a frequent combination for ESI too. But +00, maybe it's possible, but I don't think it's really frequent, as this type has an E-score of +1.

There are also rare cases of ESI +-+, if you're interested.

[crazedrat]

I can see a person possessing all these traits... wouldn't mind if you linked us to some better descriptions, though. It almost seems like you took different traits of yourself at different points in time and treated them as universals, then put them into each description. vaguely, I would say I'm S-N+D+

[machintruc]

I can see a person possessing all these traits... wouldn't mind if you linked us to some better descriptions, though. It almost seems like you took different traits of yourself at different points in time and treated them as universals, then put them into each description. vaguely, I would say I'm S-N+D+

Then, you should consider being LIE.

[crazedrat]

... you need a xanax

[machintruc]

... you need a xanax

yeah, and you need a tanax.

[Khamelion]

yeah, and you need a tanax.

aaaahahah
sorry but that IS a rather hilarious response.

[machintruc]

how did you come to find these dual phitypes? I can't figure out the pattern you are using.

That was just a guess...

That theory is still very incomplete, even if we have clues... I can't find a formal pattern for now.

But I guess, for example, that LSI -0+ is driven to EIE ++0, because such LSI's seek an obedient, enthusiastic and trusting partner ; and that LSI 000 is rather driven to EIE -+0, because such LSI's seek some rebellious slave as partner, and are likely to perceive ++0's as boring because of their blind compliance (that's the difference between E2 and E6).

[machintruc]

I've done more resarch and for now, correlations are like :

S-

62% of Introtims

S0

62% of Logic
62% of Rationals

S+

62% of Extrotims
62% of Ethics
62% of Irrationals

N-

62% of Introtims
62% of Sensing

N0

(no known correlations)

N+

62% of Extrotims
62% of Intuition

D-

62% of Introtims
62% of Intuition
62% of Irrationals

D0

62% of Ethics
62% of Rationals

D+

62% of Extrotims
62% of Sensing
62% of Logic

With Reinin codes :

S- I
S0 TJ
S+ EFP
N- IS
N0
N+ EN
D- INP
D0 FJ
D+ EST



These correlations I'm pretty sure they exist. Still, I have to figure out how non-jungian Reinin traits correlate to Phigroups.

If you know any correlations like these, tell me. (If you seriously know them)

[machintruc]

For example :

0+- : "zero plus minus" (could be pronounced "o plus minus")

--+ : "minus minus plus"

+++ : "plus plus plus"

Do you have your own way of pronouncing them ?

[Ezra]

It's funny actually. I just see them. I don't even read the symbols; I just take the information in.

[machintruc]

Model Φ, Model Phi : Psychological model which is based on physiological content of human beings or other complex systems.

Phicomponent : Physiological component. It can be Serotonin (S), Norepinephrine (N), or Dopamine (D).

Philevel : Level of a phicomponent. It can be low (-), moderate (0), or high (+).

Phitype : Set of three phicomponents with one philevel associated to each phicomponent.

Phigroup : A set of nine phitypes which corresponds one phicomponent associated with one philevel. For example, "N+ phigroup". Can be used without phicomponent or philevel to describe a set of three phigroups. For example, "S phigroups".

Phisubgroup, Phigroup intersection : A set of three phitypes which corresponds to an intersection of two phigroups. For example, S-D+ is the intersection between the S- phigroup and the D+ phigroup, and is used to describe phitypes with both S- and D+. Can be used without phicomponent or philevel to describe a set of nine phisubgroups. For example, "SD phisubgroups".

Phiset : Set of all the 27 phitypes.

Phiclass, Class of phitype, E-Score : Sum of the S, N, and D phivalue of a phitype. Ranges from -3 to +3. Each minus is worth -1, each zero is worth 0, and each plus is worth +1. Phiclass describes the "extroversion level" or "liveliness" of a phitype.

Phiclassgroup : Group of all phitypes of a certain phiclass.


Propose your terms if you feel it's necessary. Existing terms or their definitions may be modified.

[Creepy-bg]

Phibulous!

[Brilliand]

I'd like to add some syntax to the phisubgroups: multiple philevel symbols after a single phicomponent symbol represent an either/or. For instance, if I said that you wer an "S+D0+," that would mean that you were either an S+D0 or an S+D+.

For phicomponents, "X" means any phicomponent.

Also, I think the term "Phigroup" should be extended to refer to "Phisubgroups" (to avoid the longer term), and if you mean only the nine main phigroups, you could refer to the "X-0+ phigroups."

So you, Machintruc, are in the X0D- phigroup.

Also, I think the term "phiclass" can easily be extended to mean "phiclassgroup"... again, to avoid the longer word.

[machintruc]

I'd like to add some syntax to the phisubgroups: multiple philevel symbols after a single phicomponent symbol represent an either/or. For instance, if I said that you wer an "S+D0+," that would mean that you were either an S+D0 or an S+D+.

You can do like that as well, but S+D0+ isn't a phitype. It's a set for all phitypes who are S+, either D0 or D+, with any N level.

For phicomponents, "X" means any phicomponent.

You can use it, but you'd rarely have to.

Also, I think the term "Phigroup" should be extended to refer to "Phisubgroups" (to avoid the longer term), and if you mean only the nine main phigroups, you could refer to the "X-0+ phigroups."

So you, Machintruc, are in the X0D- phigroup.

You may use the term "phigroup" instead of "phisubgroup". It's still comprehensible.

Also, I think the term "phiclass" can easily be extended to mean "phiclassgroup"... again, to avoid the longer word.

Yes it can.

Phiclasses are pretty much like values like the sum of phicomponents' values, or "phisum". Phiclassgroups are the groups of all phitypes of a phiclass.

"phiclass +1" means the value itself.
"phiclassgroup +1" means all types of phiclass +1.

[machintruc]

Recent research :

I found some hidden hypothetic laws :

Law #1 : Number of phitypes for an IM type.

Each IM type is compatible with exactly 9 phitypes.


Law #2 : Law of Static IM types, N phigroups, and D phigroups.

Irrational Static Sensing types are forced to be D+
Rational Static Sensing types are forced to be D+ or D0
Irrational Static Intuitive types are forced to be N+
Rational Static Intuitive types are forced to be N+ or N0


Law #3a : Law of global phiclass of types.

Phiclasses of all phitypes compatible with a given IM type average to :

+1 for Extrotims (example : SLE's can be all D+ phitypes, then they average to +1)
-1 for Introtims (example : IEI's can be all D- phitypes, then they average to -1)

Law #3b : Law of phiclass distribution. (ROT13-ed because it's wrong)

Cuvpynffrf bs nyy cuvglcrf pbzcngvoyr jvgu n tvira VZ glcr ner qvfgevohgrq yvxr gung :

Sbe Rkgebgvzf :

1 cuvglcr va cuvpynff +3
2 cuvglcrf va cuvpynff +2
3 cuvglcrf va cuvpynff +1
2 cuvglcrf va cuvpynff 0
1 cuvglcr va cuvpynff -1

Sbe Vagebgvzf :

1 cuvglcr va cuvpynff +1
2 cuvglcrf va cuvpynff 0
3 cuvglcrf va cuvpynff -1
2 cuvglcrf va cuvpynff -2
1 cuvglcr va cuvpynff -3

[machintruc]

Correlations between phigroups and sociotypes are :

S- : 62% of Introtims
S0 : 62% of Logic, 62% of Rationals
S+ : 62% of Extrotims, 62% of Ethics, 62% of Irrationals
N- : 62% of Introtims, 62% of Sensing
N0 : (no known correlations)
N+ : 62% of Extrotims, 62% of Intuition
D- : 62% of Introtims, 62% of Intuition, 62% of Irrationals
D0 : 62% of Ethics, 62% of Rationals
D+ : 62% of Extrotims, 62% of Sensing, 62% of Logic


1. Extrotimness/Introtimness and Extroversion/Introversion

Introtimness is correlated to S-, N-, and D-.
Extrotimness is correlated to S+, N+, and D+.

The sum of components is equal to a number between -3 and +3.

Introtims are Introverts when they range from -3 to -1, otherwise they're Extroverts
Extrotims are Extroverts range from +1 to +3, otherwise they're Introverts

i.e. phitypes 000, -0+, -+0, 0-+, 0+-, +0-, and +-0.


2. Socionic S/N and Myersian S/N

Socionic Sensing is correlated to N- and D+
Socionic Intuition is correlated to N+ and D-

Then :

most phi-sensing
N-D+
N0D+ N-D0
N0D0 N-D- N+D+
N+D0 N0D-
N+D-
most phi-intuitive

Then, you confront the N and D phicomponents of the phitype with the S/N component of the IM Type same way.

For example :

0-+ IM Sensing = Myersian Sensing
0+- IM Intuitive = Myersian Intutive
0++ IM Sensing = Myersian Intutive
0-- IM Intuitive = Myersian Sensing


3. Socionic T/F and Myersian T/F

Socionic Logic is correlated to S0 and D+
Socionic Ethics is correlated to S+ and D0

Then :

most phi-logical
S0D+
S0D- S-D+
S0D0 S-D- S+D+
S-D0 S+D-
S+D0
most phi-ethical

(with ETypes)
3
5 8
1 4 7
6 9
2

Then, you confront the S and D phicomponents of the phitype with the T/F component of the IM Type same way.


4. Socionic J/P and Myersian J/P

Socionic Rationality is correlated to S0 and D0
Socionic Irrationality is correlated to S+ and D-

Then :

most phi-rational
S0D0
S0D+ S-D0
S0D- S+D0 S-D+
S-D- S+D+
S+D-
most phi-irrational

(with ETypes)
1
3 6
5 2 8
4 7
9

Then, you confront the S and D phicomponents of the phitype with the J/P component of the IM Type same way.


Examples

++0 EIE : phitype indicates a positive score for Extrotimness, Intuition, Ethics, and Rationality. Then, ENFJ.

-+0 EIE : phitype indicates a positive score for Intuition, Ethics, and Rationality ; a contradictory score for E/I. As IM Extrotim, -+0 EIE is Myersian Introvert. NFJ + I = INFJ. (Then, ****** and Zhirinovsky are INFJ)

-+0 LIE : phitype indicates a positive score for Intuition, Ethics, and Rationality ; a contradictory score for E/I. As IM Extrotim, -+0 LIE is Myersian Sensing ; and as IM Logic, Myersian Feeling. NFJ + I = INFJ. (Then, Chuck Norris and Expat are INFJ)

+-0 LSI : phitype indicates a positive score for Sensing, Logic, and Rationality ; a contradictory score for E/I. As IM Introtim, +-0 LSI is Myersian Extrovert. STJ + E = ESTJ.

+++ SEE : phitype indicates a positive score for Extrotimness and Irrationality ; a contradictory score for S/N and T/F. As IM Sensing, +++ SEE is Myersian Intuitive ; and as IM Ethics, Myersian Thinking. EP + NT = ENTP.

--- SEI : phitype indicates a positive score for Introtimness and Irrationality ; a contradictory score for S/N and T/F. As IM Sensing, --- SEI is Myersian Intuitive ; and as IM Ethics, Myersian Thinking. IP + NT = INTP. (Then, Kate Moss and Kelly Osbourne are INTP)

[Rubicon]

--- SEI : phitype indicates a positive score for Introtimness and Irrationality ; a contradictory score for S/N and T/F. As IM Sensing, --- SEI is Myersian Intuitive ; and as IM Ethics, Myersian Thinking. IP + NT = INTP. (Then, Kate Moss and Kelly Osbourne are INTP)

ISFp is equivalent to INTP? I typed as ISFP. I thought the two systems were essentially based on the same concepts of T/F etc.

[machintruc]

ISFp is equivalent to INTP? I typed as ISFP. I thought the two systems were essentially based on the same concepts of T/F etc.

That's quite unaccurate, indeed. Maybe here T/F isn't really Myersian, but Classical. i.e. Task-oriented vs. People-oriented.

358 : task-oriented
147 : task-oriented Ethical or people-oriented Logical
269 : people-oriented

This translation system doesn't work well, because I'd be ENTP. I'm not ENTP, but ENTJ.

[misutii]

hmmm I can't figure out if I'm -+- or -0- yet. I'm pretty confident that my Serotonin and Dopamine is - but can't really figure out how to measure my norepinephrine levels, what would be the difference? What are tell-tale signs of norepinephrine being + vs. 0? (i.e. blood pressure, nervousness etc.?) What correlates best with an IEI 4w5 sp/sx? From the info. here I see that introverts are more highly correlated with N- but Intuitives are correlated with N+

[machintruc]

hmmm I can't figure out if I'm -+- or -0- yet. I'm pretty confident that my Serotonin and Dopamine is - but can't really figure out how to measure my norepinephrine levels, what would be the difference? What are tell-tale signs of norepinephrine being + vs. 0? (i.e. blood pressure, nervousness etc.?)

N+ is related to nervousness.

N0 means moderate anxiety, still able to relax or to concentrate, but N+ means you're mentally restless, high-strung, unable to sleep or to relax, always needing to think of something.

The N phicomponent is probably associated to heart rate.

Blood pressure is related to the D phicomponent. In fact, D+ phitypes have medical blood pressure issues more often than D0 or D- phitypes.

[marooned]

Hmm... according to this site, I think I can gather (without stretching too far) that

S- ~ Low sense of well-being. Reactive, moody, aggressive.
S0 ~ Neutral sense of well-being. Stable mood.
S+ ~ High sense of well-being. Content, calm and happy.

N- ~ Low anxiety, deliberate thinking.
N0 ~ Some anxiety, good arousal level, stimulated but not restless.
N+ ~ High anxiety, restless mind, high-strung, over-stimulated.

D- ~ Low confidence, drive, energy, and endurance.
D0 ~ Medium confidence. Adequate drive, energy, and endurance.
D+ ~ High confidence, energy, drive and endurance.

[marooned]

The problem I have with that list it that S0, S-, N+, D-, and D0... and probably N-... seem deficient or unhealthy.

[crazedrat]

Did you make those statistics up?

[misutii]

N+ is related to nervousness.

N0 means moderate anxiety, still able to relax or to concentrate, but N+ means you're mentally restless, high-strung, unable to sleep or to relax, always needing to think of something.

The N phicomponent is probably associated to heart rate.

ok I think I'm N+ then, so -+-, last time i had my heartrate/blood pressure checked the doctor was surprised because even though it was in the normal range it was higher than he expected relative to my height/weight

[marooned]

My heart rate is also usually pretty fast... in my case though it could be related to several things... like anxiety, caffeine intake, and I suspect my thyroid medication is at too high a dose right now, which would elevate my heart rate *and* increase my anxiety. Meh. I'm not normal anymore.

[machintruc]

machintruc, do these correlations still hold true, you think?

sx variant = N+
so variant = N0
sp variant = N-

yeah.

but we don't really say sx, but "intimate", because sx means "sexual"

[machintruc]

the vicious circle of D- :

low dopamin level
=> not feeling like doing things
=> not doing things
=> unsatisfactory results
=> feeling disappointed by self
=> temporary decrease of dopamin level
=> not feeling like doing things
=> etc.



the vicious circle of S- :

low serotonin level
=> not feeling like accomodating
=> pushy behaviours
=> unsatisfactory feedback from the external world, socially rejected by people
=> feeling disappointed by external world, disagreeing with it, rejecting people back
=> temporary decrease of serotonin level
=> not feeling like accomodating
=> etc.


7 phigroups to go...

what do you think ?

[machintruc]

how can N0, S0, or D0 get into a vicious circle? (I know I'm still operating under the (mis)conception that 0 is balanced, as I haven't completely abandoned it yet.)

zero is not "balanced", because for example, some S0 phitypes may feel unable to act S- or S+, and act like formalistic retards or such.

[Gilly]

What's my phi type? S+N+D-? Something like that?