so do you think Se polr is somehow more adaptable?Originally Posted by Joy
so do you think Se polr is somehow more adaptable?
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
You're a disgrace Joy. You outlined one thing for Fe ego and assume she's an EIE. How do you know she's not an LIE?
That's a good point. I'm not sure, but I do think that they're less likely to complain, generally speaking.
You didn't read the bolded notes, apparently.
No, fuck that. I will now read it and formulate my own opinion, free of prejudice (i.e. "I'm an SLE so this new person can't be!").
What are you talking about?
Indicative of Ti, I believe, although it depends on what you're thinking about.
Okay, now I see where Joy gets the Fe from. Still, I will retain the possibility of this being Fe HA or fifth function. Not indicative of a Fe type.I tend to be quite self-absorbed. I'm usually more interested in putting my own two-cents in than what someone else has to say. I sometimes even play out imaginary conversations people I know have about me in my mind! However I don't keep a diary. I know I'm fairly good at recognising my own and others emotional states but not at guessing the reasons behind them.
Sounds like Ti again.I have a couple of circles of good friends, but I have trouble getting to know and talk to new people. I greatly enjoy time with a small group of friends and can be very animated, but I am uncomfortable and reserved in large groups such as at parties. I tend to make a poor initial impression on girls in particular, but they often seem to warm to me if they get to know me better. I unintentionally try to make myself appear 'cooler' or different to what I am when meeting new people, but this persona fades quickly after meeting someone.
Joy, you're a fucking idiot. What Fe leading doesn't like physical contact?I don't like physical contact (with hugs and my gf being exceptions) but at the same time I greatly appreciate smiling and laughter. I love music but quickly tire of the same songs. I go through an album like someone would read a book, listening to the songs for quite a few times then usually not touching the album again for a long time. I can often look serious - even when I think I'm smiling my gf sometimes asks what's wrong. Yet funnily enough I have a very expressive face when I want to use it and did well in drama at school.
More evidence for emotional reservation. Not Fe.I tend to avoid conflict. I'll rail about politics to likeminded friends, but then simply avoid the topic, find common ground and remain friendly to people with the opposite views. I find it easier to apologise than confront someone on a personal issue. I hate gossip and bitching about people behind their backs and always avoid joining in. There aren't many people that I genuinely dislike - when there's someone in my group of friends that seems to be rubbing everyone the wrong way I'll often be scratching my head wondering what they did wrong. I get exasperated and irritated easily but rarely get angry or enraged.
Ti is practically confirmed now.I love reading about ideas (particularly science) and often can't help reading a book in a couple of sittings - once I start I can't stop. I love learning something just for its own sake (such as a dead language) but at the same time I hate anything I regard as simply bs such as some philosophy. I like to quantify things and make lists. I can find it hard to motivate myself to do something that I want to do for myself do but work my arse off if compelled to such as with university work (I'm majoring in physics). I hate doing chores at home but when I'm forced to I do them thoroughly.
Si valuing. Ti valuing. This can only mean one thing.I greatly value comfort. I love good food and appreciate a good nights sleep. I love just having days kicking back and relaxing by myself. I get overly grouchy when I'm hungry. My friends are amused how I often ask "when's lunch" or ask "what's for dinner?" when talking with my parents. They are perplexed when I say I don't want to go out for no reason other than "I don't feel like it". When I went overseas with friends and was placed out of my comfort zone I got extremely annoying to others in the amount of whining and complaints I made (however I got used to it and was glad for the experience).
This is further blatent back up for Ti.I tend to get more annoyed by reading about things that seem irrational or ridiculous than things which seem inhumane or destructive (with some exceptions, particularly animal cruelty). When reading about someone getting arrested and jailed for say simply crossing the road, I would be annoyed about the flimsy evidence or the idiocy of it when other people would focus more on the ordeal such a person would have to go through. I would be more annoyed about someone who got legally executed than illegally assassinated even though its probably a more minor thing in most people's eyes, probably because I feel it's something that's within the system - something that we do and should have the power to control. Law is one of those things i'd expect to rational whereas individuals or war, etc aren't.
I dislike the ideas of left and right in politics, believing that each issue should be analysed and concluded upon on its own merits and not in relation to some overarching moral position. I often grapple with the pros and cons of a political issue but am usually able to reach a concrete position which I then hold very strongly.
Finally I'm an intensely private person. I only reveal my true feelings to my family and my gf (and even then I can often hold back) whereas I tend to stay more on the surface with everyone else.
akeaneau, I think you're an LII. Spend some time reading this page, and then tell me what you think. Also, this is one of the better socionics descriptions on this page (many are unreliable, too specific about trivial things (all LIEs like alpinism? What bullshit), and just plain shit). My LII friend identified with most, if not all of it.
@akeaneau: Wow, your first post in this thread really reminds me of myself.What do you think of Delta NF as a possibility? I am leaning towards INFj Intuitive subtype.
what do you see that suggests Fi/Te valuing over Ti/Fe valuing?
.
Thanks again all for your help. Joy, I understand what you mean by a quiet extravert, but I think I'm still an introvert. Although I enjoy close groups of friends I still find I need to recharge with time on my own and enjoy alot of solitary activities. I also don't really identify with the EIE descriptions I've read.
Ezra, I have read the LII descriptions - it's one of the reasons why I'm leaning towards it, because I see myself in alot of the description. However I can weirdly now see alot of things in IEI as well. I was originally tossing up with ILI but just looking over it again and from feedback here i doubt it now.
Last edited by akeaneau; 01-23-2008 at 10:14 AM.
I'm actually a he, but from the descriptions I'm definitely not an LIE!
This is the wrong way of defining Introvert. In MBTT, yes, in socionics, no. Many Extraverts enjoy close groups of friends, need to recharge with time on their own and enjoy alot of solitary activities. This is indicative of neither Extraversion nor Introversion socionically speaking.
I'm not surprised. It's a ridiculous suggestion based on what you've said.I also don't really identify with the EIE descriptions I've read.
Well, they're very different characters. For starters, the IEI values Se/Ni, and LIIs value Ne/Si. LIIs are far more logically consistent in their views, and place a far greater emphasis on this than IEIs do. And you'd expect them to do so; LIIs have Ti as a base function, the function which is pretty much systematic logic incarnate.Ezra, I have read the LII descriptions - it's one of the reasons why I'm leaning towards it, because I see myself in alot of the description. However I can weirdly now see alot of things in IEI as well.
Ezra, yes I admit it seems weird I can identify with aspects of both. However, I've looked up extra descriptions such as Filatova and I'm much more sure that I'm LII now. Maybe there was just something in the way the wikisocion description of IEI was written that appealed to me. Put it this way - is it perfectly reasonable for an LII to sometimes do something irrational on a whim, for example I've sometimes found myself catching a taxi which is 10 times the price because I'm too lazy to wait half an hour for a bus - that might sound too specific but there are other examples of that kind of behaviour in me. It's that type of thing in the IEI description that struck home and gave me doubts.
By the way, I realise that trying to type myself using just descriptions isn't a good idea but I'm not comfortable enough with socionics yet to try and analyse on a function by function basis - or whatever else.
With respect to extraversion/introversion, what exactly is the socionics definition of it then? Is it still in the same ball park? From the way people talk about it I'm guessing it must be.
http://www.socionics.us/theory/dichotomies.shtml
akeaneau, if you're stuck between INxx types, perhaps this could help.
Choose A or B:
A.)B.)This sounds like someone I'd get along well with, especially in a close relationship:
The individual feels at home among people who are actively doing something and interacting with each other directly (visibly), and is able to organize people, move them around as necessary, and guide them in achieving a specific goal. He or she likes obedience and even subservience in others, since it allows him to "make things happen" more effectively.
He is keenly aware of territorial conflicts and confrontational behavior occurring around him. He very quickly becomes confrontational when others try to make him move or get him to do something in an aggressive or confrontational way. He quickly recognizes when people are trying to get each other to do something or are trying to organize him for some purpose. He also spontaneously uses aggression to achieve his own goals.
He wants to make all decisions himself about what he will do, wear, eat, look like, etc., and resents any attempts by others to make these decisions for him. However, he is willing to make use of other peoples' ideas, advice, and creativity, as long as he plays the most visible role.
He enjoys testing his will in challenging situations and views life as a sort of obstacle course, full of adversity and challenges, that must be weathered and conquered.
-AND-
This sounds like me:
The individual is generally lacking in strong, immediate desires that would be able to drive his day-to-day actions and provide the motivation to overcome the petty obstacles in life. He seems to live in a state of permanent doubt and indecision, broken only by brief periods where external factors leave no choice but to take action.
He admires people who have strong desires and motivation, don't back down when faced with obstacles, demonstrate resolute will, and aren't afraid to do things on a whim and undertake challenging projects. It's much easier for him to know what to do around these people.This sounds like someone I'd get along well with, especially in a close relationship:
The individual is naturally good at organizing relaxing activities and recreation and getting people to calm down and enjoy themselves, but displays this behavior and skill when he sees a specific need for it rather than doing it automatically, all the time. The individual does not place emphasis on being calm and balanced all the time, as opposed to those with Si as a leading function.
The individual is aware of and attuned to people's tastes and personal preferences and likes to do things or give things to friends and family members that will cause them to enjoy themselves and gain pleasure, for example:
- creating a comfortable, clean, and spacious setting in the home
- taking them out to do something they enjoy
- finding opportunities and people with whom they can pursue their hobbies
-AND-
This sounds like me:
The individual has difficulty producing pleasurable sensory experiences for others (and for himself as well), but likes to talk about pleasure, enjoyment, and relaxation, hoping that someone nearby will take the hint and take the lead.
The individual tends to periodically get wound up and uptight and is generally unable to resolve these sensations himself. He needs someone to help him relax and take an internal look at whether he actually needs or enjoys what he is doing, and what might be the source of the tension that has built up.
He tends to extremes in this area, either depriving or indulging the senses to an unhealthy extent.
The individual tends to overreact to aggressive or confrontational behavior, taking it as a personal threat when it may only be a knee-jerk reaction or the result of a bad mood.
He tends to avoid intruding on others' space or engaging in behavior that may be perceived as coercive, and tries hard to handle his needs by being disciplined and well-prepared himself - rather than relying on others to do things for him. If these strategies fail, his efforts at dealing with the resulting conflict make him look actively pushy in a way that appears awkward and unnatural to others. This opens him up to painful criticism and feelings of weakness and helplessness.
He is able to moralize and instruct others about what they should do and why, but he is not prepared for others' active resistance or refusal to do as he says. In his mind, this would require him to put aside reason and good feelings and simply make the other person do what is necessary. This is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for him to do.
Joy, I would definitely have to say B.
Alpha, ISFp.
To me anyway.
That taxi example isn't being irrational. It's being practical. 30 minutes is a long time, you have money, you spend it. Life goes around, repeat.
Ok, I think it's pretty much confirmed for me that I'm an LII now, albeit one with a penchant for introspection and self-absorption (declaring was the only one of my answers on the Reinin dichotomies that didn't match up with LII). Thanks for the input everyone, I really appreciate it
Fuck Reinin. LII is your type. If I went with Reinin I wouldn't be an SLE. I'd be an LIE.
let's stop pretending we are random people on the internet akeaneau lol
Alrighty then, "hellothere"
Ezra, I agree that the Reinin dichotomies probably aren't correct. However the individual things and how they much up to people such as declaring/asking and static/dynamics, etc, are interesting and revealing in and of themselves.
LII
that confirms to me that you're probably IEI.Alrighty then, "hellothere"
I hope that's a joke, because it would be ludicrous to reach a conclusion based on whether someone uses emoticons or not
LII
are you kidding. look at my analyses of your first post in this thread.
i was referring to the fact that i saw some evidence of hellothere being IEI, and i saw strong evidence pointing to IEI for you here. i was talking about what i thought after putting the two together.
what, that we're the same person? we're not, we just know each other in real life.
I understood and agreed with much of your analysis which is part of the reason why I seriously wondered whether I might be an IEI. However I now found plenty of reason to convince me otherwise, as well. Anyway my point is that whether or not you use an emoticon, or indeed how you type on the internet, does not correlate with how you may act in reality. Getting opinions from people on the forum has been very insightful and helpful for me, but I believe you're never going to get the full picture unless you talk to people that you know in real life too, which is what I have done.
LII
o ok sry. posting under a new account to try to get fresh perspectives is not an uncommon tactic.
perhaps, but what evidence i see points to IEI. also ftr the emoticon did not factor into anything - to make that perfectly clear.
Ok, fair enough. Well with regards to what I said in my first post, Ezra's analysis seems a fairly good angle on why it could be seen as LII. *shrug* I guess it's all a matter of interpreting different aspects though. I think it might be that I just have a few aspects of other types chucked in - not a completely stereotypical LII, perhaps.
LII
i thought it was truly off the mark. here's a brief sample of why.
plain old inexperience and lack of familiarity with Ni. everything you've described in the above is extremely Ni. "thinking" per se is not Ti; rather, Ti is static and is much more oriented towards passively generating constructs. what you've described here does not demonstrated a categorical or systematic understanding at all; it instead emphasizes the mind as a tool of analyzing situations and consequences (consider the part about worrying about what you could have done differently) and deemphasizes the body as a problem area in a way very typical of Ni types. even things like the insomnia (for exactly the reason you've described) are typical Ni.
possibly shares some characteristics with certain Ti dominant types, but in and of itself nothing here is indicative of Ti per se. the only thing it really points to is maybe introversion, and possible to NiFe through the adoption of a "cooler persona."Sounds like Ti again.I have a couple of circles of good friends, but I have trouble getting to know and talk to new people. I greatly enjoy time with a small group of friends and can be very animated, but I am uncomfortable and reserved in large groups such as at parties. I tend to make a poor initial impression on girls in particular, but they often seem to warm to me if they get to know me better. I unintentionally try to make myself appear 'cooler' or different to what I am when meeting new people, but this persona fades quickly after meeting someone.
very stupid argument. plenty of Fe types, particularly those that do not have valued Si.Joy, you're a fucking idiot. What Fe leading doesn't like physical contact?
again, poor conclusion. the dislike of politics thing might point to unvalued Te. the rest of this is not indicative of much, although i think its inclusion and your ability to talk so extensively about your social surroundings points to an Fe, maybe Fi focus.More evidence for emotional reservation. Not Fe.I tend to avoid conflict. I'll rail about politics to likeminded friends, but then simply avoid the topic, find common ground and remain friendly to people with the opposite views. I find it easier to apologise than confront someone on a personal issue. I hate gossip and bitching about people behind their backs and always avoid joining in. There aren't many people that I genuinely dislike - when there's someone in my group of friends that seems to be rubbing everyone the wrong way I'll often be scratching my head wondering what they did wrong. I get exasperated and irritated easily but rarely get angry or enraged.
parts of this do point to Ti, but the overall message is a desire for learning, which is not at all confined to Ti. the motivation problems and the chores thing are typical of dual-seeking Se. the way you've described it in terms of working hard on necessary things like university work but neglecting everything else is perfect.Ti is practically confirmed nowI love reading about ideas (particularly science) and often can't help reading a book in a couple of sittings - once I start I can't stop. I love learning something just for its own sake (such as a dead language) but at the same time I hate anything I regard as simply bs such as some philosophy. I like to quantify things and make lists. I can find it hard to motivate myself to do something that I want to do for myself do but work my arse off if compelled to such as with university work (I'm majoring in physics). I hate doing chores at home but when I'm forced to I do them thoroughly.
don't see Ti at all. as i mentioned earlier the lackadaisical approach towards such irrelevant, mundane elements as food is strongly Ni. i think the overall message of your post is enough to discredit whatever rather weak Si focus might be here.Si valuing. Ti valuing. This can only mean one thing.I greatly value comfort. I love good food and appreciate a good nights sleep. I love just having days kicking back and relaxing by myself. I get overly grouchy when I'm hungry. My friends are amused how I often ask "when's lunch" or ask "what's for dinner?" when talking with my parents. They are perplexed when I say I don't want to go out for no reason other than "I don't feel like it". When I went overseas with friends and was placed out of my comfort zone I got extremely annoying to others in the amount of whining and complaints I made (however I got used to it and was glad for the experience).
absolutely not. the last paragraph maybe, but the political dislike of categorization, absolutely not, and the "inhumanity of it all," again: no. not even close.This is further blatent back up for Ti.I tend to get more annoyed by reading about things that seem irrational or ridiculous than things which seem inhumane or destructive (with some exceptions, particularly animal cruelty). When reading about someone getting arrested and jailed for say simply crossing the road, I would be annoyed about the flimsy evidence or the idiocy of it when other people would focus more on the ordeal such a person would have to go through. I would be more annoyed about someone who got legally executed than illegally assassinated even though its probably a more minor thing in most people's eyes, probably because I feel it's something that's within the system - something that we do and should have the power to control. Law is one of those things i'd expect to rational whereas individuals or war, etc aren't.
I dislike the ideas of left and right in politics, believing that each issue should be analysed and concluded upon on its own merits and not in relation to some overarching moral position. I often grapple with the pros and cons of a political issue but am usually able to reach a concrete position which I then hold very strongly.
Finally I'm an intensely private person. I only reveal my true feelings to my family and my gf (and even then I can often hold back) whereas I tend to stay more on the surface with everyone else.
i'll admit that some of these points are stronger than others. the over-arching one is that there are numerous places and a strong focus on describing Ni-related processes such as lack of motivation and "being trapped inside ones head." in my mind this trumps everything else; there may be other tidbits pointing to something else, but they don't come close to overturning the clear focus on Ni.
are you even trying to make sense?
you are missing the point and one of the most important characteristics of why Ni needs Se.Yes, Ne types are just the most motivated people in the world.
you misunderstand me (although i can see why). i meant to say that the part of the description in question did seem to point to Si, but that the overall focus was not as strong as the rest of the description.I don't know, he seems to value Si a bit. Do you like lunch or dinner more Ake?your post is enough to discredit whatever rather weak Si focus might be here.
i bet that if you asked a bunch of people, you would find people identify with it on both sides but that it would resonate more highly with Ni types.
there's no way you could prove this scientifically. there's no way you could prove anything related to socionics in any kind of empirically demonstrable way.
i will stand by what i said: if you, personally, asked a bunch of people on both sides about it, it would resonate more strongly with Ni dominants.
you are a very tiresome person.
actually this is a good point. if the idea were presented in a way that would be easier to deal with without knowledge of socionics, it might work better. but i don't have the eloquence to do it, at least not easily. and i'm tired of this discussion.
ok.I can be a very tiresome person, but sometimes people appreciate that about me.
But you seem to be a pretty miserable person, maybe someone out there will appreciate that about you. TBQH, you're a smart intelligent kid, who's probably going to go to school, do well and get into all sort of intellectual things. That is all well and good, but you're also deeply depressed, sad, and have some deep insecurities about yourself. And that really turns a lot of folks off no matter how much you think you don't care.
I think not liking being touched makes a better case for Se polr than Si role or polr. Touching would be more of controlling a person into comfort for Se suggestive, like when a person gets scared or such they would pet them to control them to calm down and lull them into a false sense of security and such, which would be more in INFp arena. ISTp's who can tend(assuming they are not bogged down by circumstances of course) to be the most health concerned of types don't like touching, handshaking, etc.(probably also to keep their independence) Trusting a person isn't going to get rid of the germs on their hand, even if they have washed, because who knows what strain could be out there immune to anti-bacterial, which would fit their need for Ne suggestive. I don't really have an opinion on akeaneau's type anymore though. What is your reasons for not like being touched anyhow?
agree with this. i can't speak for INFps and i don't know how much the whole "ISTps don't like to be touched," thing is based on health reasons, but just going by everything you read about Ne/Si, seems like ISTp would theoretically have a bigger problem with this than INFp.
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
I'd think if an ISTp didn't want to be touched, it would more likely be due to Fe PoLR than Si. ISTps aren't hypochondriac germ-o-phobes.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
yeah, i didn't see the health correlation. i could imagine some INFjs (and INTjs) doing this (for health reasons,) though.
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
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