Elena, ENTj or ENFj? Let's settle it here

[Elena]

This whole discussion about your type has done more harm than good.

Harm how?

[Elena]

My feelings are hurt.. I'm going to toss hello kitty dolls at you.

Lol those are cute. I like the middle one the best .

[Logos]

Actually there are a few types who could answer in that same fashion.

What do you mean?

[Joy]

Normally, I hear that if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, then it is a duck. But now it sounds as if I am being told that it could not possibly be a duck but is instead must be a goose, because it is all far too convenient for duck too show up walking, looking, and talking like a duck all at once?

It's not just that she "walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck". Like I said, she responds as someone who's either been part of the English speaking online Socionics community for a long time or has done a fuck of a lot of lurking.

[Elena]

Alright, at the risk of opening pandora's box...



Elena, you're either an eager reader and a very fast learner, or you're being coached. A typical LIE who stumbled onto this forum and began reading about the theory would not post the "perfect" responses you repeatedly have within such a short period of time. These are the answers of someone who's either been part of the English speaking online Socionics community for a long time or has done a fuck of a lot of lurking.

I didn't just stumble onto the forum, I was referred here by Fabio. Remember? I had read and observed about Socionics for quite a while before coming here. I believe that was mentioned.

[FDG]

Alright, at the risk of opening pandora's box...



Elena, you're either an eager reader and a very fast learner, or you're being coached. A typical LIE who stumbled onto this forum and began reading about the theory would not post the "perfect" responses you repeatedly have within such a short period of time. These are the answers of someone who's either been part of the English speaking online Socionics community for a long time or has done a fuck of a lot of lurking.

I have explained to her socionics, but I have never ever told her what to reply to whom. Heck, she's way smarter than me IMHO, so for what I know she could already know better than me.

[Elena]

It's not just that she "walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck". Like I said, she responds as someone who's either been part of the English speaking online Socionics community for a long time or has done a fuck of a lot of lurking.

I do notice that I copy certain phrasing that I read in posts and certain words I come across here. It helps me respond faster. Is this what you are seeing?

[Elena]

I have explained to her socionics, but I have never ever told her what to reply to whom.

I don't even think we have talked about what is posted on here before.

Heck, she's way smarter than me IMHO, so for what I know she could already know better than me.

Haha thanks .

[Logos]

It's not just that she "walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck". Like I said, she responds as someone who's either been part of the English speaking online Socionics community for a long time or has done a fuck of a lot of lurking.

And? She knows what to say to sound like an LIE? How is this any different from anyone else on this forum including you and me? Yes, you stumbled a bit to find your type, but that does not mean that everyone starts posting on the forum as a novice without a clue of their type.

[Joy]

I didn't just stumble onto the forum, I was referred here by Fabio. Remember? I had read and observed about Socionics for quite a while before coming here. I believe that was mentioned.

It's not just about Socionics itself though. The patterns in your dialog show a familiarity with the English speaking online Socionics community beyond what you would have if you weren't lurking for a long time, spending literally days on end pouring over old threads, or spending more time talking with people who have been around for a while than you do actually posting here.

[Logos]

It's not just about Socionics itself though. The patterns in your dialog show a familiarity with the English speaking online Socionics community beyond what you would have if you weren't lurking for a long time, spending literally days on end pouring over old threads, or spending more time talking with people who have been around for a while than you do actually posting here.

So she's some kind of doppelganger imposter?! Kill her!

[Joy]

And? She knows what to say to sound like an LIE? How is this any different from anyone else on this forum including you and me? Yes, you stumbled a bit to find your type, but that does not mean that everyone starts posting on the forum as a novice without a clue of their type.

Yes, but what I'm talking about isn't directly related to type.

I do notice that I copy certain phrasing that I read in posts and certain words I come across here. It helps me respond faster. Is this what you are seeing?

That is part of it, yes. The patterns are too complete for it to be just that though.

[Elena]

It's not just about Socionics itself though. The patterns in your dialog show a familiarity with the English speaking online Socionics community beyond what you would have if you weren't lurking for a long time, spending literally days on end pouring over old threads, or spending more time talking with people who have been around for a while than you do actually posting here.

No, I'm just smart.

You are getting desperate here Joy.

[Logos]

I mean some things that are being said is not really indicative of type...

I don't know what else really to say...

That will suffice.

[Logos]

Ok I figure out what to say, I find it more peculiar that Joy would think that particular statement was some sort of golden bullet that had to be a certain type.

So you have said more, and I agree. It would probably be best to see how Elena's post progress over time as well as the relationships she cultivates on the forums in the long-term.

[Joy]

You are getting desperate here Joy.

My statement had nothing to do with your type.

It would probably be best to see how Elena's post progress over time as well as the relationships she cultivates on the forums in the long-term.

Definitely.

I mean some things that are being said is not really indicative of type...
Ok I figure out what to say, I find it more peculiar that Joy would think that particular statement was some sort of golden bullet that had to be a certain type.

It's not about which types it could apply to, it's about which types it's been said about previously on this forum.

[Ezra]

Unlucky, Joy, I think you've met your match here. A logical woman can finally exist in your presence.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Joy]

A logical woman can finally exist in your presence.

When have I ever suggested otherwise?

[discojoe]

Unlucky, Joy, I think you've met your match here. A logical woman can finally exist in your presence.

Lol, what an annoyingly irrelevant beta thing to say.

[Joy]

I actually went to my consensus list and did an informal tally.

Of the groups I counted (I left out self-typings), there were 15 logical males (but most had ethical types listed as a second possibility), 6 logical females, 12 ethical males, and 12 ethical females.

[tereg]

For me personally, I verbally process things to others. I like having sounding boards -- people that can actively respond to me to things I invest time explaining or expressing. So, in my opinion, Fi is about an internal assessment of seeing and analyzing my place in an environment and assessing whether or not I "fit" there. In other words, how does what I sense around me or hear or whatever resonate within? And so, when I gesture and articulate things to other people, I'm not necessarily looking for an emotional response, but rather a response that will help me to put into perspective or clarify what I'm thinking or feeling (usually if I'm struggling to put something into words). Or maybe, a better way to say it would be, I'm looking for a response that will help me to clarify something that I'm struggling to express and also look at it from a different angle or light and determine if I resonate with it or not (which actually requires a bit of on my part to make the connection). So, that's what I personally do when I express things to people and try to get a response -- it's to try and help me to clarify things in my head.

Are you saying that what you just described is Fi? If so, could you explain a little what you mean by "environment"?

What I described has an element of Fi, but the Fi only tells part of the story. So, this description as a whole is not, in my opinion, Fi, but only a piece of the picture. I was trying to illustrate a contrast of how I personally use articulation and expression to develop an internal assessment (which I will explain shortly), rather than using articulation and expression as a barometer of sorts to gage the general emotional makeup of a particular environment (environment I'll define in a moment). So, in other words, how I use expression to look inwardly, as opposed to using expression to feel out how people will respond and how they are responding.

The part that is Fi to me is the internal assessment of how I see myself fitting into an environment. So what I mean by environment is any place that I can either envision myself being at or actually being at. I will kind of look at a situation (typically of a social nature, but it's not limited to it) and I will assess whether or not I feel comfortable being a part of it. And that's why I used the word "resonate". There's an aspect that I see of Fi that is about feeling a level of resonant agreement. Like if I were to say something like "I don't really feel like I should be here." or, "I can't put my finger on it, but something about this place feels off." those would be situations (or environments) that do not resonate well with me.

So, what I was trying to achieve in the post was to say that when something bothers me internally (when something doesn't resonate within), a lot of times I try to find out why, but I can't quite find the right questions or explain what the dissonance is. So, what helps facilitate that process is verbally processing it with others which helps me to work through it and to be able to draw a clearer picture of why something might or might not resonate within me. And therefore, when I gesture and express things to people, I'm not looking for an emotional response (necessarily) from that, but rather, I'm looking for pieces of information to help me better understand things floating around my head; I rely on other people's insight to illustrate things that I have a hard time coming up with on my own (which is where the Ne takes over, being able to make the connection between something that I don't know that well with something that I do understand).

I hope that answers your questions. If you need me to clarify something else, I would be more than happy to do so.

[Satan]

No, I'm just smart.

You are getting desperate here Joy.

And yet you still respond to Joy.

[Logos]

if YOU don't like her, it doesn't mean everyone doesn't, fellow spaceman.

I don't think his post implied anything of that sort.

[Satan]

if YOU don't like her, it doesn't mean everyone doesn't, fellow spaceman.

Well, don't you know that I'm more important than other people.

[Satan]

I don't think his post implied anything of that sort.

Let Dee take it how she will. She wants to read offence. Let her read offence.

Personally, I find Joy to be depriving enough in general, that it doesn't really mater what other people think. I know that she's a negative influence, and thus completely unnecessary and superflous.

[Ezra]

When have I ever suggested otherwise?

I can read your mind...

YOUR MIND!












































Your mind...

[Minde]

What I described has an element of Fi, but the Fi only tells part of the story. So, this description as a whole is not, in my opinion, Fi, but only a piece of the picture. I was trying to illustrate a contrast of how I personally use articulation and expression to develop an internal assessment (which I will explain shortly), rather than using articulation and expression as a barometer of sorts to gage the general emotional makeup of a particular environment (environment I'll define in a moment). So, in other words, how I use expression to look inwardly, as opposed to using expression to feel out how people will respond and how they are responding.

The part that is Fi to me is the internal assessment of how I see myself fitting into an environment. So what I mean by environment is any place that I can either envision myself being at or actually being at. I will kind of look at a situation (typically of a social nature, but it's not limited to it) and I will assess whether or not I feel comfortable being a part of it. And that's why I used the word "resonate". There's an aspect that I see of Fi that is about feeling a level of resonant agreement. Like if I were to say something like "I don't really feel like I should be here." or, "I can't put my finger on it, but something about this place feels off." those would be situations (or environments) that do not resonate well with me.

So, what I was trying to achieve in the post was to say that when something bothers me internally (when something doesn't resonate within), a lot of times I try to find out why, but I can't quite find the right questions or explain what the dissonance is. So, what helps facilitate that process is verbally processing it with others which helps me to work through it and to be able to draw a clearer picture of why something might or might not resonate within me. And therefore, when I gesture and express things to people, I'm not looking for an emotional response (necessarily) from that, but rather, I'm looking for pieces of information to help me better understand things floating around my head; I rely on other people's insight to illustrate things that I have a hard time coming up with on my own (which is where the Ne takes over, being able to make the connection between something that I don't know that well with something that I do understand).

I hope that answers your questions. If you need me to clarify something else, I would be more than happy to do so.

Thank you, that was what I was looking for. :wink:

[Angel Alliterator]

I was going to post a whole new topic on this, but thought it would just be better to post it here.

What would be the profound difference between ENFJ and ENTJ? These two types can look alike and I've been going back and forth between the two.

[Expat]

What would be the profound difference between ENFJ and ENTJ? These two types can look alike and I've been going back and forth between the two.

Perhaps you can tell us a bit as to why you identify with 3w4?

[Angel Alliterator]

Perhaps you can tell us a bit as to why you identify with 3w4?

Not so much identification, more like it has been the most prominent in tests.

I've had higher scores in 7 as well.

I tend to be very blunt and sometimes over the top with enthusiasm, which can overwhelm others (and many times get me into hot water with family and friends).

I do tend to be very competitive and have been accused of arrogance in the past (which I can see).

I tend to keep my guard up for the most part and have been described as "cold and calculating."

I tend to be very impatient and very bossy and can occasionally have fiery outbursts that can overwhelm others.

Everyone usually tends to have a strong opinion on me, one way or the other.

[FDG]

Sorry, how is keeping guard up and being cold and calculating tied to any function?

[Expat]

I tend to be very impatient and very bossy and can occasionally have fiery outbursts that can overwhelm others.

Could you describe what usually triggers such outbursts?

[Angel Alliterator]

Dee, I liked how you implemented the functions with what I described.

Sorry, how is keeping guard up and being cold and calculating tied to any function?

i'm sure AA will confirm that by calculating he meant thinking actions through, which is Te as Fe would not be "cold".

I just see things through a logical perspective and many times I don't take feelings (especially the feeling of others into account).

Which is why I can come of as blunt and harsh (though it's not my intention) because I am want to say what the facts others (while others want me to cut back on it and think of their feelings).

I tend to feel very uncomfortable with feelings (my own and others) it makes me feel rather uneasy and I find it a bit irrational.

And I've gotten into trouble for being bossy and telling the 'harsh truth' instead of 'sugarcoating' (which makes me feel uneasy, though sometimes I try to and still evidently come off as 'harsh').

Could you describe what usually triggers such outbursts?

It usually comes when I am either threaten and especially when I am being controlled or made to be a fool.

[Expat]

It usually comes when I am either threaten and especially when I am being controlled or made to be a fool.

So if I understood you correctly, one of the things that make you have a fiery outburst is when someone makes you look like a fool? Is that it?

[Angel Alliterator]

I'd say more controlled then being taken for a fool, but both almost equally trigger intense anger and even rage.

[Minde]

I just see things through a logical perspective and many times I don't take feelings (especially the feeling of others into account). (Te>Fe)

Which is why I can come of as blunt and harsh (though it's not my intention) because I am want to say what the facts others (gamma, realistic Te) (while others want me to cut back on it and think of their feelings).

I tend to feel very uncomfortable with feelings (my own and others) it makes me feel rather uneasy and I find it a bit irrational.

And I've gotten into trouble for being bossy and telling the 'harsh truth' instead of 'sugarcoating' (Se backing up one of the weakest Si) (which makes me feel uneasy, though sometimes I try to and still evidently come off as 'harsh').

It usually comes when I am either threaten and especially when I am being controlled or made to be a fool. (that's why ISFJs have a creative Se, so that ENTJs are better "managed").

dee, "harsh" is not a word I would use to describe you.

[Expat]

I'd say more controlled then being taken for a fool, but both almost equally trigger intense anger and even rage.

This points more towards ENFj than ENTj in my opinion.

I think people are more sensitive to insults, or attacks, to their super-id functions. In ENFjs' case, the dual-seeking Ti and hidden agenda Se.

The "controlled" thing is connected to the Se HA, and the "being taken for a fool", to the Ti dual-seeking.

It is no problem whatsoever for an ENFj to have a perception of "seeing things from a logical perspective".

[Expat]

Not nearly as questionable as you even considering INTp as type for you, dee.

[Angel Alliterator]

I am not sure about subtypes, never really took those into consideration.

But I probably go with the N subtype just from reading your description.