Fdg

[aestrivex]

For example, what is said in the Ti as vulnerable function on Ishy's page obviously doesn't apply to me based on my forum behavior.

i disagree.

But some Se-base behavioral traits might apply to me, it's just that they have never been listed yet. For example I'm the first to say that much of the vocabulary associated with Se on wikisocion is a good representation of the way I write when I'm being an ass - which is all the time except when I'm discussing seriously.

here's one of the major problems. you're basically admitting that you don't know what Se is and that you're depending on other people to try to give you information.

primarily, if you don't understand the information required to understand the theory yourself, how do you expect to ever understand what's going on?

i could list different aspects of Se for you, but i could never list each and every last detail of Se because Se is a conceptual construct which is defined by what it is, rather than some list of traits that magically contain all information that ever needs to be disseminated on Se.

you have to understand, implicitly, what the concept of Se means in order to actually understand it and evaluate it. and to do that, you have to observe it and understand what it is that you're observing. you already know enough basic information about the function (ie in very general terms, it has to do with spatial awareness, agressiveness and reckless behavior, the sex drive, and other stuff that you already know) to be able to extrapolate what people are actually working from when they use this function.




here's another interesting point: do LIEs mainly depend on other people for information? consider, along the wonderful lines of ashton thought, that Te is an extroverted rational function. does it sit idly by and wait for people to come feed it data and then reach it's conclusions?

i wonder what types do that. hmmm...

It's a hypothesis that can't be rejected. Still, I'd be a complete failure as an SF!

you certainly seem social enough.

[aestrivex]

I can link you some things, but I thought this was a thread mostly about my type.

(this is one of the reasons I avoid partecipating to many of the longest threads on functions - they take hours)

i think this has the potential to be extremely useful data with regards to your type; otherwise, i wouldn't have asked it. but, if you don't feel like dishing it out, i can't force you.

[aestrivex]

Ok. What I meant was that before, when I typed myself as LIE, nobody ever questioned it saying that I actually was SLE. This was take to me as signifying that the other hypothesis did not contain any particular flaw (Joy has suggested that even Eidos was SLE recently...bogus).

consider also that

a) this is an online forum. for obvious reasons, it can be harder to tell than IRL.

b) people make mistakes. people make mistakes all the time. the fact that some group of people made a mistake at some point in the past should be taken pretty lightly, particularly when you have new information to think about. thinking about the way that ideas got thrown around in the past as a determination for what is probably true now is a bad idea.

[FDG]

here's one of the major problems. you're basically admitting that you don't know what Se is and that you're depending on other people to try to give you information.

No. I'm just being open-ended. It's a thread about my type. I'm avoiding taking a stance purposefully, in order to be objective. Either I behave like this, or I start dishing out absolutes, which would be detrimental to a fair debate.

primarily, if you don't understand the information required to understand the theory yourself, how do you expect to ever understand what's going on?

I understand it, and have my own opinion. I'm not stating it in order not to bias people, and not to make the debate a real mess (because somebody will surely question my understanding of functions, and given that I have put a lot of thought into it, I won't be easily convinced by other argumentations - endless!)

i could list different aspects of Se for you, but i could never list each and every last detail of Se because Se is a conceptual construct which is defined by what it is, rather than some list of traits that magically contain all information that ever needs to be disseminated on Se.

you have to understand, implicitly, what the concept of Se means in order to actually understand it and evaluate it. and to do that, you have to observe it and understand what it is that you're observing. you already know enough basic information about the function (ie in very general terms, it has to do with spatial awareness, agressiveness and reckless behavior, the sex drive, and other stuff that you already know) to be able to extrapolate what people are actually working from when they use this function.

Well thank you daddy, this is obvious. The reason why I am not stating any information is because if I were to do that, the topic would branch out into a speak about the functions. Look at what has happened with dee type thread, for example. That's what I want to avoid.

here's another interesting point: do LIEs mainly depend on other people for information? consider, along the wonderful lines of ashton thought, that Te is an extroverted rational function. does it sit idly by and wait for people to come feed it data and then reach it's conclusions?

i wonder what types do that. hmmm...

Well it seems to me that I have searched enough by myself and reached conclusions ONLY by myself when I did (if you notice, I never changed my type over somebody else suggestions).

[aestrivex]

if you have your own conceptions of the theory, then you should start with explaining, based on the information elements, why you think you're Te and Ni instead of Se. which you haven't done.

if you don't do that, this whole discussion is useless.

[aestrivex]

it's 4 am; i'm going to bed now.

[FDG]

if you have your own conceptions of the theory, then you should start with explaining, based on the information elements, why you think you're Te and Ni instead of Se. which you haven't done.

if you don't do that, this whole discussion is useless.

This is a type thread started by Joy. Not a type thread titled "FDG wants to prove he's LIE". That would take me far too much time, and real-life evidence that any of you could say "But this could have been invented!".

[aestrivex]

then why are you even posting in this thread at all?


w/e. i don't care. but don't expect to be taken seriously if you won't present any functional arguments.

[FDG]

then why are you even posting in this thread at all?

To conter-argue non-LIE proposals.

w/e. i don't care. but don't expect to be taken seriously if you won't present any functional arguments.

I don't really owe anybody a typing, honestly. I could say the same about you and giving evidence of me being SEE or SLE or anything you want, but I won't, given that I think I can still take you seriously.

[munenori2]

I know what type you are but if I told you, it would BLOW YOUR MIND and, frankly, I can't have that on my conscience. So keep on keepin on being the person you are while I look on disapprovingly while taking notes.

[FDG]

I know what type you are but if I told you, it would BLOW YOUR MIND and, frankly, I can't have that on my conscience. So keep on keepin on being the person you are while I look on disapprovingly while taking notes.

Hey...who tells you I haven't already blown my mind?

[munenori2]

Hey...who tells you I haven't already blown my mind?

Good friends share that shit!

[FDG]

Good friends share that shit!

I can give you free a piece of my brain to blow! If you forgive me ;P

[munenori2]

ROFL, keep it. I'm not Hannibal Lector and you're not Ray Liotta.

[Joy]

Ok. What I meant was that before, when I typed myself as LIE, nobody ever questioned it saying that I actually was SLE. This was take to me as signifying that the other hypothesis did not contain any particular flaw

Any flaw other than that the English speaking online Socionics community thought that Se + Ti was Te? (They also seemed to think that Fe was Fi, but that's not as clear.) Do you have any idea how much the forum's understanding of Socionics has grown since then?

(I seriously cannot believe that no one brought this up.)

(Joy has suggested that even Eidos was SLE recently...bogus).

I challenge anybody to dig through his old posts and try to put together a case that suggests otherwise. He may have been an undisputed LIE back when Se + Ti was still considered to be Te, but if he were still around I guaranty that general consensus of his type would have been changed to SLE right along with Ashton's and FDG's. (Not that general consensus means something is accurate, but in this case, given the extent of growth in terms of understanding Socionics that this community has seen in the past year or so, I think it's worth mentioning.)

[Ezra]

Fabio, can I just ask; what is not right about your being an SEE? What doesn't fit?

[Kristiina]

FDG is SEE.
and a jerk.
and I want ignore function back.

[anndelise]

FDG is SEE.
and a jerk.
and I want ignore function back.

did I miss something somewhere??
the only thing i remember was quite long ago

[XoX]

FDG could well be SEE.

[Kristiina]

I think it's in your UserCP.

oh wow! I found it. Much better. Thanks.

[Ezra]

FDG is SEE.
and a jerk.
and I want ignore function back.

No he's not. He's a really nice guy.

[ScarlettLux]

I think FDG is scary, always have. =S

[Ms. Kensington]

I think FDG is scary, always have. =S

hhahahahhahaha

he's freaking hilarious.

[FDG]

Any flaw other than that the English speaking online Socionics community thought that Se + Ti was Te? (They also seemed to think that Fe was Fi, but that's not as clear.) Do you have any idea how much the forum's understanding of Socionics has grown since then?

I don't even believe that is strictly true. It's your wish to channel every ENTj that doesn't agree with you into being Se+Ti. You've tried lately to do this with Eidos, and to me this demonstrated how impartial you are. Somebody being bold-agressive-adventurous-whatevere is a personality trait that can come from so many other sources other than socionics type (say, body type for example) that you should allow for more variation in the same type, and not restrict the set at your pleasure.

Furthermore, I don't really care about the understanding of socionics from the forum. I have my own understanding - that is formed by, as Salawa says, "patching" all the different theories available - and I don't give a shit if it doesn't collide with the now stupid consideration of the Fe/Ti - Fi/Te divide as being evil-good, or with Se as the function of omnipotence, and many other flaws that lately have started to appear.

[XoX]

did I miss something somewhere??
the only thing i remember was quite long ago

The thing is that often Kristiina is way too obsessed with her hidden agenda. There was a thread from Expat I think which made the claim the any person who obsesses about their hidden agenda is going to annoy many people.

So technically FDG is very reactive in pointing out when Kristiina is trying too hard to be Se and comes out as negative, unfair and bitchy. Instead of taking the, often very direct, advice given she chooses to shield herself behind the ignore button.

[FDG]

I told her she shouldn't criticize fat or lazy people because everybody (including she) is fat and lazy compared to somebody else. Especially she shouldn't deem them as "inferior" as her. They're human beings worthy of consideration as much as everybody else, that happen to have "diet" problems? That doesn't say anything about their value.

[Ezra]

Right, what I see wrong with Fabio as an LIE is that far from valuing and being shit and trying to hard with Se, he's very adept in it. He knows exactly what he's talking about when he refers to people's physical qualities (as he does often with me, because he thinks I boast about my capabilities), in the same way that discojoe does, an ESI. I have no doubt that he's in Gamma, and I think he fits SEE perfectly

[Kristiina]

The thing is that often Kristiina is way too obsessed with her hidden agenda. There was a thread from Expat I think which made the claim the any person who obsesses about their hidden agenda is going to annoy many people.

So technically FDG is very reactive in pointing out when Kristiina is trying too hard to be Se and comes out as negative, unfair and bitchy. Instead of taking the, often very direct, advice given she chooses to shield herself behind the ignore button.

The entire issue is about Si. And the ignore button is not meant to shield myself. It's meant to keep me from getting strongly emotional against FDG which would end with me saying what I really think. I would end up being very very mean towards him, which he would deserve, but it would damage my reputation in the forum, because FDG manages to fake such a friendly and nice personality most of the time and people have no idea what kind of a person he really is.

...but nice of you to give such a nice explenation how it's all just the result of me being negative, unfair and bitchy. lol.

[FDG]

The entire issue is about Si. And the ignore button is not meant to shield myself. It's meant to keep me from getting strongly emotional against FDG which would end with me saying what I really think. I would end up being very very mean towards him, which he would deserve, but it would damage my reputation in the forum, because FDG manages to fake such a friendly and nice personality most of the time and people have no idea what kind of a person he really is.

I don't know, girl. When you're being a bitch to people that have as only fault the one of being fat, I'll be a bad person, yes. Otherwise, no. I doubt that this gives any indication to my core personality or anything like that, but if you believe so, I'm not here to change your opinion.

Also ehm...I don't think I'm considered particularly friendly or nice on this forum.

[Ezra]

FDG manages to fake such a friendly and nice personality most of the time and people have no idea what kind of a person he really is.

No, this is definitely untrue. If Fabio has something to say to me, he'll say it. Then there's his long-running rivalry with Joy. And I doubt he'd be afraid to say anything to you, either.

I know what 3s are like, because I'm friends with one. I know what fake personality is. I know Fabio doesn't adhere to this online (I can't pass judgement about him IRL, because I don't know him and have never met him IRL). I really don't understand, Kristiina, where you get the idea of Fabio's sly craftiness. It's just not there on show as you purport it to be so.

[Gilly]

Se isn't omnipotence, it just wants it

[FDG]

No, this is definitely untrue. If Fabio has something to say to me, he'll say it. Then there's his long-running rivalry with Joy. And I doubt he'd be afraid to say anything to you, either.

I know what 3s are like, because I'm friends with one. I know what fake personality is. I know Fabio doesn't adhere to this online (I can't pass judgement about him IRL, because I don't know him and have never met him IRL). I really don't understand, Kristiina, where you get the idea of Fabio's sly craftiness. It's just not there on show as you purport it to be so.

IRL I behave the same way, I just get angry rarely in comparison to here (mostly because I purposefully avoid interacting with people that I don't get along with, obviously). But yeah I understand why Kristiina had taken offence at what I said, but I think it really had to be said because she had crossed the line.

[Gilly]

Fabio's not very crafty, he just bullshits a lot.

[Joy]

I agree with FDG for the most part, but I can certainly see why the way he said it could offend someone. He pretty much said "you think they're fat and lazy? you're one to talk!"

Not all fat people even have "diet" problems. Oftentimes being overweight is the result of a medical conditions. Addressing the medical condition gives them a chance to achieve and maintain their ideal weight (which could very well be higher than that of other people with their height and frame). Some people are just genetically predispositioned to be big. Here's an excerpt from the book The Diet Cure:

So what should you weigh? It is your body's job to
maintain its genetically programmed features, including
its weight. Try to alter that weight at your peril.
Researchers at the prestigious Rockefeller Institute
examined some formerly obese women from Overeaters
Anonymous who had reduced to "normal" weights. They
looked "normal," but had symptoms usually seen in women
with anorexia nervosa: Their fat cells were shrunken,
they no longer menstruated normally, their pulses were
fifty to sixty beats per minute instead of the normal
seventy to eighty, their blood pressures were abnormally
low, and they were always cold. In addition, cruelly
enough, they burned 25 percent fewer calories than their
heights and weights indicated that they should be
burning. They literally were semi-starved, and had to
stay that way to maintain socially acceptable weights.

I'm not a biologist or doctor, of course, but I find it really hard to believe that the reason most overweight people are overweight is because they're lazy. And even if they're overweight because they don't get enough exercise, I think that generally their lack of motivation is a symptom in itself, perhaps due to low dopamine. Maybe they overeat? Okay, well that is often a symptom of low seratonin or food intolerances.

Don't mind me, I'm just becoming increasingly disgusted with the medical community and their willingness to stop looking for the actual cause of something as soon as they match someone's symptoms to a condition/syndrome for which there's a medication or treatment.

[FDG]

Fabio's not very crafty, he just bullshits a lot.

Like?

I agree with FDG for the most part, but I can certainly see why the way he said it could offend someone. He pretty much said "you think they're fat and lazy? you're one to talk!"

You can call me evil but I really wanted to offend her. Nobody should be allowed to degrade others like that imho.

[Gilly]

Like?

Jesus Fabie, again?

I don't get it...you think it's only my type that matters because he claims to be ENTj and, if we're the same type, then I'm ENTj too; yet at the same time you sustain that I'm the only one so sure of the similarity where actually we might be a different type - so you're sustaining two hypothesis that are kind of conflicting. Even if he were to be of a different type, you wouldn't have a problem with me being ENTj, basically, so what's the problem?

Gilly: I was just trying to escape your reasoning. I wouldn't call that "real" Ti, just a fake attempt in order to avoid conflict. Wasn't even constructing an argument, honestly.

Whatever you are, it is NOT a Te type

[FDG]

Jesus Fabie, again?

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...t=15640&page=7

and...



Whatever you are, it is NOT a Te type

Ah I agree, and that's what I thought, but I wouldn't call that "a lot"

[Joy]

You can call me evil but I really wanted to offend her. Nobody should be allowed to degrade others like that imho.

I don't think it's evil. I was just saying that I understand why that would upset someone. I agree that sometimes people need to be upset. I didn't see what she'd said about overweight people and I don't know exactly what you said... or either of you... so I won't try to offer an opinion as to whether or not what you said was "called for".

[Gilly]

Ah I agree, and that's what I thought, but I wouldn't call that "a lot"

Well I took the closest example at hand. Want me to go digging? Really?

[FDG]

Well I took the closest example at hand. Want me to go digging? Really?

Nah, don't waste your time. I thought bullshitting more as like "purposefully lying for a reason", but if that is what you mean, I agree that I do it whenever I wanna get out of an argument without too much hassle.