Differences between LII-INTj and ILI-INTp

[strrrng]

I've been reading socionics and know a fair amount. I feel like I lean more towards ILI, based on descriptions of rational/irrational and a few other things.

goofy; don’t reveal inner life; interested in processes; passive relaxedness; ironic attitude

this is exactly me. relaxed, goofy attitude....I don't walk, I kind of "float".....the underlying dynamics of things interest me - human psyche, physics, etc.

So, what is the consensus on this forum when describing people? because I've seen mbti and socionics used. personally, socionics seems superior to myers briggs, but I guess everything has its place.

[Creepy-bg]

So, what is the consensus on this forum when describing people? because I've seen mbti and socionics used. personally, socionics seems superior to myers briggs, but I guess everything has its place.

that's one of our problems... being an internet forum there really isn't a good consensus. I'd say what's on the wikisocion can generally be accepted as the closest to consensus we have. The issue though is that there are those who mix and match, or even come up with their own theories, interpretations, and offshoots of socionics and you'll find that they can be the squeekiest wheels which I think causes alot of confusion to newcomers. If you can still find it there's a locked thread in anything goes that lists the "crackpots". The wording is a bit strong and meant to be taken in jest but generally if you read between the lines you'll get the picture. Be warned the thread turned into a major drama-explosion so you don't really have to read the whole the thing if you don't want to (but you'll be able to get an idea of how that part of "socionics" plays out and is represented here if you do)

[UDP]

Your best bet is to have real life experience with people form every type, and experience every quadra atmosphere.

Be around ESFjs and ESFps.

See which one is more comfortable to you.

[strrrng]

most ESFj's get on my nerves. My fastidious grandmother who is overly-sensitive, my neighbor who has an infinite amount of energy and is always in your face.

I don't know many ESFp's (my brother may be one, and we get along well).

would ESFj's be more likely to try to control people whereas ESFp's would be more interested in having fun with the person?

[UDP]

If you are an ILI, that is how it would seem.

(Because - the ESFjs leading function - is your polr)

[Gilly]

That's a pretty broad generalization, but superficially, it would be the other way around. ESFp's dominant function, Extroverted Sensing/Se/ is about exerting influence and control, and when paired with Introverted Feeling/Fi/ , it typically deals with people as a priority over concrete "things." An ESFj's dominant function, Extroverted Feeling/Fe/ , is about influencing people's moods and emotions. When paired with Introverted Sensing/Si/ , the result is a person typically concerned with creating a happy atmosphere and physical comfort. However, your descriptions are pretty vague, so "fun" and "controlling" could mean lots of different things, given the lack of context.

The best way to get started would be to read up on definitions of the functions and start learning about how they work in different positions of Model A.

One key thing that I would urge you to remember when studying Socionics: the best way to think of types is as tendencies. No one thing about a type DEFINITELY means or implies that any other property is inherent to that type. Just a tendency.

And, welcome

[Elro]

most ESFj's get on my nerves. My fastidious grandmother who is overly-sensitive, my neighbor who has an infinite amount of energy and is always in your face.

I don't know many ESFp's (my brother may be one, and we get along well).

How are you identifying these people's types?

would ESFj's be more likely to try to control people whereas ESFp's would be more interested in having fun with the person?

It depends on what you mean. ESFjs can be controlling in some ways and ESFps can be controlling in others. I'd definitely recommend checking out quadra theory if you haven't already - in my opinion it's one of the most valuable typing tools in Socionics. ESFjs fall into Alpha quadra and ESFps into Gamma - they have quite different values in other words.

[Logos]

And by any chance is this grandmother the wife of your grandfather who died? If so, that would seem incredibly peculiar for a long-term relationship/marriage between an INTj and an ESFp to last.

[strrrng]

How are you identifying these people's types?

observation and intuition. I have a lot of observations and I know they're right (don't really feel like going into the details right now).

And by any chance is this grandmother the wife of your grandfather who died? If so, that would seem incredibly peculiar for a long-term relationship/marriage between an INTj and an ESFp to last.

what? "you talkin' bout my grandma, bitch?". Seriously, what do you mean? I never mentioned my grandfather - her husband, who is alive and an ISTj.

Oh come on!
Does anyone here in this thread think a INTp will say "jargonized bullshit"? Is there any Fe PoLR in that statement..
You're probably Ti dominant not Ni/Ne dominant.

elaborate...?

[Elro]

How are you identifying these people's types?

observation and intuition. I have a lot of observations and I know they're right (don't really feel like going into the details right now).

How do you know they're right? Have you learned Socionics that quickly?

[strrrng]

How do you know they're right? Have you learned Socionics that quickly?

I have been reading about socionics for the past 3-4 weeks, and I do learn quickly. But, compared to most of the people here, I'm an amateur. But I've known about myers briggs for a year or so, so I have a solid foundation. Since I know the functions, I am able to identify them in others. Like my g'ma....she is very in tune with others' moods, enjoys hosting....then there's the aesthetic aspect. She likes neatness, cleanliness, order. an intuitive leap here but, being an introvert and intuitive thinker, I realized I share virtually no characterisitics with her and that she would have little interest in the type of things I like to study - which are mainly on the esoteric side - b.c of her more here-and-now outlook.

whatever.....

hkkmr, your insight is appreciated. So, if I was INTj, I would have polr ?

[Logos]

And by any chance is this grandmother the wife of your grandfather who died? If so, that would seem incredibly peculiar for a long-term relationship/marriage between an INTj and an ESFp to last.

what? "you talkin' bout my grandma, bitch?". Seriously, what do you mean? I never mentioned my grandfather - her husband, who is alive and an ISTj.

Okay, I now know what I did. I was confusing you with another self-identified ILI who was talking about how ILI's grieve.

[Elro]

I wouldn't immediately rule out ENTp for you, strrrng. Extroversion in Socionics plays out differently than in MBTI. In other words, extroverts can be outwardly reserved, not the life of the party, etc.

Have you looked into functions at all? If so, which ones do you identify with, and in what ways?

Also, what qualities do you appreciate in others?

And could you give a short self-description?

[strrrng]

yeah sure, I'll give a quick portrait.

I enjoy alone time, I'm an abstract/global thinker, value logical precision in thoughts, pretty strong-willed especially if I set my mind to something, can sit at the computer for long periods of time without feeling distressed, have a perceptiveness of underlying factors whether with people, events, etc., enjoy daydreaming, anticipate how events will play out a lot, fairly apathetic demeanor but can become energized in a debate.....

umm, yeah.....the traits I appreciate in others include, intelligence, insight, sensitivity, depth, humor, wit, listening skills, creativity, appreciation for spontaneity but not completely impetuous.

yes, I've looked into functions a little....the thinking and intuion functions are my strongest....just figuring out function patterns, rational/irrational...

[krieger]

You summarize and truncate a lot; a trait prevalent in INTj thinkers.

It's loosely related to this difference between IP's and IJ's:

[quite="Smilingeyes"]The IP seems to care about everything related to the task he is interested in. He is engrossed like as if he were a part of the task himself. This is when he likes what he is doing.

The IJ on the other hand doesn't seem to care, or allow himself to care about the "frivolous" parts of a task. He cares only about "the important parts" of the task. Yet over those he needs greater control than the IP. He is not absorbed by the task but rather he is single-minded in his pursuit of the task. While the IP "is one with the task" to the IJ the important things seem to appear as an abstraction, a simplification, rather than as the thing an sich. This capability gives the IJ greater command over his understanding of the matter.[/quote]

If the task is to 'describe yourself' or 'tell your opinion', the natural tendency is to be very brief and contained about what you do and do not reveal.

[strrrng]

I think I might be INTp for a few reasons.....

one: I like to think about everything, come up with explanations, etc....and I don't care about applying them in reality or even doing anything with them, really; I just want to understand.

two: even though I apply discipline to areas in my life that I care about, I have a lazy, goofy, lackadasical nature and don't really care deep down about doing a bunch of stuff.....I just weigh out consequences, which motivates me.

but who knows....

[ScarlettLux]

I think I might be INTp for a few reasons.....

one: I like to think about everything, come up with explanations, etc....and I don't care about applying them in reality or even doing anything with them, really; I just want to understand.

two: even though I apply discipline to areas in my life that I care about, I have a lazy, goofy, lackadasical nature and don't really care deep down about doing a bunch of stuff.....I just weigh out consequences, which motivates me.

but who knows....

1. >

2. Alpha quadra values

[implied]

I think I might be INTp for a few reasons.....

one: I like to think about everything, come up with explanations, etc....and I don't care about applying them in reality or even doing anything with them, really; I just want to understand.

two: even though I apply discipline to areas in my life that I care about, I have a lazy, goofy, lackadasical nature and don't really care deep down about doing a bunch of stuff.....I just weigh out consequences, which motivates me.

but who knows....

1. >

2. Alpha quadra values

re:1 i actually got the reverse answer, there. >, it's just of the alpha sort i believe.

[strrrng]

How did you get this Scarlett?

And 1 and 2 are in direct contrast... Alpha quadra values Introverted Thinking > Extraverted Thinking

I'll pat you on the head for being a pretty INFp but... this is just... Wink

explain that alpha thing.

BTW, I do not think you are INTp, strrrng.

Yeah, I don't really know - I thought to myself after writing the post, "an INTp wouldn't even write it like that," but it's w/e, I think right now I'm just trying to find a balance between structure and flexibility because of how I overworked myself for the past year with certain things.

how can you tell a person with base apart from someone with base based on language and behavior?

[ScarlettLux]

OOPS omgsh, so sorry, I really meant to put > Jeez *smacks head in stupidity* Yeah, that would've made no sense seeing as 1 & 2 would then contradict eachother.

[strrrng]

again, very insightful.

what is your type, hkkmr?

[strrrng]

I think this rapper, lil' wayne, is ILI. I don't listen to much rap, but he's very clever and dynamic verbally. I drew the conclusion based more on his metaphors and puns, and partially on his calm attitude. He also seems to think he's very smart, as he states in multiple songs.

[krieger]

Why resurrecting this old thread?

It's most likely a part of that un-funny spam humor thing he's got going on. Niffweed sees someone try not to have some thread reposted -> niffweed repost said thread.

The weird thing is, this post pre-dates the forum vandalism.

its kind of a dumb thread.

Cone was very much worth listening to for the most of his posting history, but like he admits this is one of his less reliable additions. Keep in mind this post is litterally ancient. Compared to most of the information available at that time, this isn't bad at all.

The parts where Cone describes what he believes to be typical INTp behaviors are still very useful, as he is one of the most obvious INTps this forum has seen, and we can depend on his self-reports being relyable without problems.

[Ave]

whatever happened to Cone, anyways?

[Cone]

So, do I win the "Oldest Thread Still Active" award?

[Cone]

You guys are just too fucking addicting. I can't stay away.

BTW, if you know me, did you change your name? I.e. who are you?

[717495]

No, I got a new name right when I stopped knowing you.

[717495]

Guys, I fixed it. When you read it, just switch INTp and INTj. It's that simple!

[Cone]

I think you guys should stop posting here.

Just you know, wink or something if you agree.

*wink* *wink* *wink* *wink* *am-I-winking-enough?*

[DividedsGhost]

I don't know if anyone has seen Blake's 7. But it has a really good portrayal of LII and ILI.

I thought I would post this because I just realized it's a really good representation of ILI vs LII that shows why profiles and dichotomies are mostly a suggestion. Please excuse the dramatic music.

Here's a short example.


Blake has all the fittings of a standard ILI.

His serious intuition (Ni) plays everything as it comes in the moment while trying to fulfill a vision of morality of the world represented through a moral code of Fi. His whole motivation in the series is to fight the injustice of the federation. Even when he has the opportunity to escape it all and live a comfortable life, he doesn't even consider doing so. I would also say that his Ni-base is created at the beginning of the series due to the events that unfolded regarding himself and the federation.

His Te then naturally becomes his tool to help him achieve all this. It's truly his creative function.

But the downside for him in seeing everything in terms of Te supporting leaves him unable to interact with the world in an Fe manner. Since he constantly seeks Te to accomplish his goals (and achieves them, reinforcing his Te), the value of Fe becomes meaningless for him. Instead he is left to use his demonstrative function Ti to demonstrate any emotional connections he may wish to convey. By explaining the internal logical motivations of his Te (backed by Fi) he is able to express what his PoLR is unable to.

And Avon has the standard workings of an LII.

We can start to see this by first examining his Ti+Fe functions. His first method of interaction with the world and everyone around him is to fit everything into some kind of non-contradictory logical system. This is the natural function or constitution of what Ti really is. And rather it's the fact that human nature is often contradictory that leads to his often humorous comments regarding the other members. He expresses such things with his Fe which is almost always of a weak nature. In fact, for him, it's just a tool for amusement and nothing else which from what I've witnessed and read is the common basic definition for Fe in an LII.

Also, we can see that he takes an Ne-creative stance in how he decides to feed his Ti function, preferring to look at the likely possible consequences of what might happen before taking action. He's often seen being very negative about anything that the other crew wants to do, often reminding them of the high likelihood of being wrong or failing to reach their goals the way they desire. Because of this he is almost always reluctant to take any action. Se naturally becomes his weak point and one he never appreciates Blake constantly giving him.

And from this Se-PoLR that he has we become aware of the Ni-demonstrative that results from carefully considering the likely consequences (Ne) that will result in a situation. He is at one point remarked at as saying "Don't you ever get tired of being right?" and he says something along the lines of "No, but I do get tired of everyone being wrong."

It can also be seen that due to the nature of everything above, Avon also inevitably expresses Si of a nature that considers it of most value when he sees the high likelihood of failure given a certain action in a situation. He often fantasizes briefly about riches and comfort he could have if he stole certain technologies or abandoned Blake. He never does though. Maybe this would be best described as the Fi role function that sees benefit in not betraying friends, as if to logically imply that basic morals have their own logical benefit. This would go along with what I said about the role function being something someone uses as long as it is seen as useful and beneficial to that person. In this case, I would say it is considered beneficial to him since Blake helped him escape ending up in a prison and does provide some kind of security of friendship.

Anyway, for anyone that's seen this show, what do you think? What would you add or change?

I also want to add that the demonstrative function can be well understood in this case as something that evolves unconsciously from the creative function, more naturally in response to the PoLR. It's not really supposed to be something that the person is aware of. And I know some of you will most likely disagree with the following given the difficulty of catering to and expressing the different semantics of how this function can be interpreted, but...

For ILI it's more of a need to express the logical/moral motivations and consistency of their actions to justify the means with the end, rather than design logical constructs. For them, it's supposed to happen while haphazardly gathering data in response to the Ni (Fi envisioned) base filter.

For LII it's more of a need to show the illogical/immoral motivations and consistency of their actions to redesign an appropriate logical construct and follow actions that make the most sense, justifying the end with the means, rather than the means with the end.

[carrina]

I don't know. That's a question to be answered by neuroscience. And I am not an expert on that. But I think that most scientists in that field would agree that the brain's structure remains more or less intact from the age of 20-20 or something like that. .

Not even. A small search on brain development would be helpful here.

[flames]

ILIs have a chance at sex appeal.

[Beautiful sky]

One's the critic who criticizes on the external behavior of other's being wrong; the other is the analyst who is emotional lol

[Beautiful sky]

The LII's dual is written as the master of reading emotions in order to help people feel more emotionally comfortable and included. How structurally would that benefit the LII, Maritsa, why would an LII have trouble in this department?

because LII's emotions get out of hand and ESE help ease them by providing sound information

[para]

As an example, when finding yourself in a social situation, how do you tell the difference between ILI and LII? What are the signs? The differences?

[Number 9 large]

ILIs like to be pushed into undertakings and to be "led by their hand" unto some new endeavour, because they are often too wary and too low energy to do so themselves.
LII would react strongly against this and would probably overly resist or try to ignore such an invitation. They often get overly emotional and may feel annoyed or pushed out of their comfort zone. (Se polr vs Se seeking).

ILIs like to know friend from foe, where they stand towards people, what people think of them if they do this or that, how it would affect their relationships and if it would be a right move. Fi hidden agenda
LIIs dont necessarily focus much on this, instead they love it when people can create a vivid and happy atmosphere around them so that they can open up emotionally and feel relaxed. Once they feel like the atmosphere is bright enough they feel like they can drop their aloof behaviour and become a bit goofy in a good way. Fe hidden agenda

ILIs on the contrary would hate it if people asked them to contribute to a vivid atmosphere or "join in on the party". They like one on one connection more than camaderie. (Kinda like sx vs so)
They are seemingly allergic to fun and joviality. Fe polr

LIIs are attuned to comfort and often are interested in ways to improve their health through bodily harmony. They may be interested in finer cuisine, or buying an high quality mattress to improve sleep. Si seeking
ILIs dont necessarily care about it.

ILIs dont believe in universal truths and that truth might be relative and pov dependent. They prefer a posteriori and inductive reasoning. Te

LIIs do believe in universal truths and have reductive and deductive structural logic Ti

ILIs are attuned to the change and pathway of events, might be interested in history and its effect on today. (Ni)

LIIs are attuned to multiple possibilities and like to see situations and concepts from all angles Ne

[at sirac son of sirac]

ILIs can be quite outgoing at social events, although they are drawn to rougher conversations or riskier places (Se seeking), LIIs can be quite funny, they'd rather people were enjoying themselves than getting thrills from a riotous night out.

Personal circumstance is always a factor of course.

[para]

How does Fi role and Si role manifest? When is it used?

[Olimpia]

How does Fi role and Si role manifest? When is it used?

The Role is mostly being used in superficial interactions, especially if you meet someone for the first time, they are likely gonna use their Role at first.

Small Talk can be a good way to "see" the Role sometimes.

Si Role is gonna do small talk about Si related things. E.g the weather, health, how they physically felt about something.
Fi Role is gonna do small talk about what is appropriate, morals. Or more often than not, they simply are trying to appear morally proper.

Outside of superficial interactions, the person is rarely gonna use their Role.

People use their Role whenever they feel like their first function may not be appreciated or valued by others.
It's mainly a way to test the waters in new interactions with new people, but sometimes the person may also use the Role if they feel uncomfortable or unvalued in an interaction, or if they want to impress someone who seems to value their Role. For example, Mirage and Extinguishment partners often attract each other by using their Role.

If the Role is being rejected, it doesn't hurt or matter as much as when the Lead is being rejected, that's why people are usually in Role-mode in new/early encounters.

P.S: I think the Role is one of the reasons why Duals are often not that interested in each other at first glance or in early encounters; because their Dual's Role function is an IE they don't value, so they find them less interesting. It is also the reason why less suitable types can appear to be more appealing at first. The tables turn once the people move away from the Role and embrace their Ego functions more.

[WinnieW]

Si role for me, most likely. Moral issues are not a small talk topic for me.