Krig > Trevor
If I had to choose between the two of you.
Krig > Trevor
If I had to choose between the two of you.
Very good, yellow82. I am proud of you.
I don't think you know your math very well if that's what you think I was trying to say.
Yay, I win!Originally Posted by yellow82
Quaero Veritas.
Fun fact:
I thought you were the guy I liked in disguise the first time I got on this forum. You two write and talk a LOT alike!
Just saying. . . you two would probably get along rather well if you met.
Hahaha, I totally thought the same thing about you! Our situations are rather startlingly similar.Fun fact:
I thought you were the guy I liked in disguise the first time I got on this forum. You two write and talk a LOT alike!
Just saying. . . you two would probably get along rather well if you met.
Quaero Veritas.
That is odd. . . wait a minute -- who are you, really?Hahaha, I totally thought the same thing about you! Our situations are rather startlingly similar.
Maybe our duals do like us then -- maybe we just have to speak up. . . hmmmm. . . food for thought. :wink:
This is good - questions I would not know to ask are being answered.
LII
Silly LIIs attacking a dual.
#1. ESE have large social networks. true
#2. you have 2000 friends. false
why?
The human brain has not evolved to keep track of more than 150 people. Supposedly 150 is the same number as a tribe. Biological fact.
lets pretend that's not true and you do have 2000 friends but then how do you squeeze 2000 friends into 365 days?
while this might not be the case with Yellow, it's totally possible to have that many "friends", that is, people you've met in your life that you'll occasionally speak, write to or hang out with. So I think ESE's have a tendency to be somewhat over-inclusiveness when it comes to people, which is likely due to a need for social stimulation and loads of relentless energy to spend it on (Ej-ness). But you got to take their claims of friendship with a grain of salt because they may not prioritize differentiating "acquaintances" and "friends".
That's not to say that they don't treat their acquaintances like friends, indeed at times they can do too much for their acquaintances where that time/energy/resources should be spent on people who're a bigger part of their life (I can give tons of examples of this...)
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
Indeed. What with Ignoring Fi, ESEs (ESFjs) don't pay a whole lot of attention to the exact distance or closeness of a relationship; Fe and making people happy is what's important.
I would imagine that popular IEEs (ENFps) know similar amounts of people, in terms of raw numbers, but they're not as active in maintaining the more distant relationships over time, and may even discard less important people (Creative Fi).
Quaero Veritas.
I've got tons and tons of acquaintances, but a very small amount of people I'd say are my really close friends. I share BG's view of "friends" as he stated earlier. There are those friends who I've known and become very close to and have since grown away from due to moving around a lot. I'd still call them a good friend even though I don't call them or even acknowledge their existence for a full year at a time. The number of those people in my life is 3. They are the type of people that no matter how big of a problem they're in, I'd go out of my way to help them.
I have realized that I don't even feel very close to my family...lol. I can actually say I know a few of my closest friends more than I do my brother or either of my parents. It's sick to say, but even my family seems as much of an acquaintance to me as some of the people I've worked with over the years. Not to say I don't truly love them and care about what happens with them, I just don't find them in my inner circle of people who really do know me as well as I know them.
I attribute a lot of this to moving around a lot as an Army brat while I was young... and then leaving everything behind to move across the country for work, which has even moved me around a bit also.
I've recently had the chance of hanging out with a person who's very close to their family and friends and I've found it quite amazing to see and experience. I imagine I'd be a pretty different person if I had the same kind of bond with my family, and in their case, God. In fact, I'd probably be sitting here saying how much alike I am to Yellow82, since she's a bit of how I imagine I'd be if raised in the same environment as the friend I've mentioned here.
In closing, a point I'd like to make in this thread... ESE is a type of person, and none are the same. Alike maybe, but not the same. Yellow82 is about the closest to someone "like" me I've seen come along (sharing a few of the same opinions, the way she posts...etc.), but we are considerably different in many MANY ways in my opinion.
Along came facebook and myspace and fucked up our biology...lol. Seriously, with modern technology that number has increased at least a little bit. If you asked me to make a list of people I "know" I could probably not get more than 150, true... but, go through my email, phone contacts, FB and myspace friends... and it'd be much closer to 1,000 than I'd like to admit...lol. I'd hardly suggest that I don't "know" them though... even if I'd need something else to jog my memory that they're there.
Dunbar's number doesn't have an exact value. 150 is simply given as the most common value as an ESTIMATE. The idea is still highly theoretical. The very number was arrived at by analyzing the societies of other primates and extrapolating a value for humans. There has yet to be definitive evidence that this figure is accurate for humans. The number also rules out human capacity to grow and mature mentally. (if memory can be improved, why can't maintaining harmonious social relationships?)
(Socio-)Biological THEORY, not Biological FACT.
Today I had personal, deep conversations with around 20 people.
I asked how a person was to around 50.
And I said hi to around 100.
I watched a movie with around 20.
On a normal day I have at least 7 deep conversations. . .
I have at LEAST 500 friends -- I don't care what the test says -- I know what my life is. :wink:
And as far as the guy I like goes -- I give up.
No one in my life thinks that I should tell him. I guess here goes to never telling a soul that I know how I truly feel. . .? Blegh. . .
Another emo day. . . they seem to be so common now. . .
Do we count?
I'm exhausted just thinking about this...
No offense intended -- but not really. You don't know me or the guy so your opinions are generalized on the normal ILL/ESE relationship.Do we count?
However, my friends do know us; and they say forget it. I think I'm going to go with their advice -- even though I've been trying to avoid this day for so long. . . it's time to let go -- completely.
He is clearly avoiding me.
I can not take that any more. If he wants to avoid me -- it's his choice -- and more power to him. I'm not about to try and pry him open when he obviously doesn't want that.
I give up.
There's nothing left for me here.
That's a normal introvert thing. :wink:I'm exhausted just thinking about this...
Meh -- I still say throw caution to the wind and go for it. You only live once. Crashing and burning isn't the worst thing in the world, trust me.Today I had personal, deep conversations with around 20 people.
I asked how a person was to around 50.
And I said hi to around 100.
I watched a movie with around 20.
On a normal day I have at least 7 deep conversations. . .
I have at LEAST 500 friends -- I don't care what the test says -- I know what my life is. :wink:
And as far as the guy I like goes -- I give up.
No one in my life thinks that I should tell him. I guess here goes to never telling a soul that I know how I truly feel. . .? Blegh. . .
Another emo day. . . they seem to be so common now. . .
Quaero Veritas.
I realize I'm probably just an anonymous nobody on the internets who doesn't understand the situation, and that you could care less about what I have to say, but have you considered the possibility that he maybe avoiding you because he really likes you but thinks that you don't like him -- i.e. he thinks that you're too good for him?
If I were in a situation where I thought someone was being arrogantly dismissive of me, I'd avoid them too. So yeah... if he's avoiding you, you don't have anything to lose at this point by telling him.
EDIT: I didn't read the rest of the thread so I apologize if someone already mentioned this.
Exactly. What's he going to do, avoid you more?
To my mind, the relief of getting your feelings out in the open is worth it.
Quaero Veritas.
Nothing but my reputation and all the respect he may still have in his heart towards me.So yeah... if he's avoiding you, you don't have anything to lose at this point by telling him.
It's not worth the risk. I'd rather just forget that I ever liked the guy. . .
Besides, if he likes me and isn't man enough to admit it; he's really not the kind of guy I want. I considered at one point letting him know that I liked him; but the more I thought about it; the more I realized that I want to be pursued. Not the other way around.
I don't mind initiating a friendship; I "do" mind initiating a relationship.
I've liked this guy for longer then is healthy and I just need to forget him. . .
But one more question:
If an INTj thought that you liked them more then a friend and began to pursue and then the other person got scared because they didn't think it the right time, so they told them that they liked someone else, then that other person cried to them about lying to someone about who they liked, and the INTj didn't talk about the whole stupid ordeal and kept acting like he liked them as a friend but slowly distancing themselves from the friendship. . . what is going on in the INTj's mind?
Your reputation how?
And there's no risk of him losing any respect for you. Trust me. As a shy guy, and one who fears rejection, I can only really thrive in situations where the girl gives enough information for me to infer what sort of a relationship it is I'm dealing with (or what sort of risks are worth taking to find out).
You are dealing with someone who is staring down the biggest, burliest, toothiest, most intimidating predator known to every human being with a Y chromosome: the possibility that you might say "no". You gotta go get 'im, tiger, and show him the real meaning of fear
But the question is, will you be able to? I'd say the possibility that you'd be stuck in feeling limbo is a far worse risk. Much better to have certainty and clarity in one's affairs. But this is just my inclination, right? Take it as you will.
Okay, but think about this: what are you passing up because of one tiny, trivial, insignificant detail that will likely not factor into anything in your relationship ever again? In what other ways is he not the sort of guy you want? If you can't think of anything compelling, then bingo! There's no compelling reason why he's not at least worth a shot
And to this, I can only say I'm sorry this situation is hurting you so muchI'm not sure if the counsel and support from some random on the internet really helps at all, but
If nothing else I'm rooting for you, soldier.
You're clearly in an emotional state. Nobody here is judging you, or is going to criticise you
This is the biggest problem facing male INTjs and female ESFjs. Culture and society and even instinct dictate that it's the man who should take the initiative and do the pursuing. The problem is that, socionically speaking, it's the ESFj who is orders of magnitude better equipped to do the initiating. So unless the relationship sort of "just happens", then for anything to happen either the INTj has to struggle to overcome his natural weaknesses in the social arena, or the ESFj has to struggle to overcome societal gender role expectations. Often, it doesn't happen, and two people who could have been happy together wind up never making that connection.
In that situation, I would be feeling hurt and screwed over, and probably a little angry. He tried to open up emotionally, and got burned. Nobody recovers easily from that, but especially not an INTj. There's a reason we put up these thick layers of shell around us -- to protect our vulnerable emotions. The only way you could regain his trust would be to apologize for hurting him, and somehow convince him that you're sincere this time, that you want what's best for him more than for yourself, and that you're not going to turn around and hurt him again.
Of course, I don't know the guy, so I can't guarantee that's accurate. That's just how I would be feeling in the same situation.
Quaero Veritas.
If an INTj sincerely thinks that you don't like him, he's rarely going to embarass either you or himself on the slim hope that things might change.
INTjs act on thinking, not feeling, and they need some factual assurance that what they're doing is right. You don't have to repress your natural instincts by pursuing him, but you do have to give him some some strong sign that you might be interested in a relationship so that he can pursue you.
It's more accurate to say they give precedence to thinking over feeling, and that feeling is examined through the lens of thinking. Both exist in the same brain and affect one another, even if one is generally overruled or ignored.
yeah this, as well as what Krig stated and Arthur about possible shyness and subsequent fear of being rejected
I think it's good to keep in mind what jxrtes brought up; that LII's are not seeing things the way us ethical types do, that is, it's harder for them to pick-up on how other people feel towards them, and in many cases, how they feel towards others. I don't think they're completely oblivious to it, it's probably like a bunch of signals masked in a thick fog so they can't always get a clear picture of the emotional connection, they only pic up on what's evident to them.
But if it's important to you that he be the one to pursue you, perhaps you can let someone else pass this on to him, than if he really does want to be with you he'll feel more confident with his own feelings towards you and that he won't be rejected if he makes an attempt to let you know that.
I mean, you might think that just by showering him with positivethat would be enough to convince him, but for him it's harder to differentiate if you like him as a person or as a romantic interest.
There's also hisPoLR to keep in mind, so he's going to have a harder time picking-up on signals of attraction towards him, and likely doesn't see himself as highly sexually desirable to begin with. btw I don't necessarily mean sexual as in having to have sex or be right out sexually alluring, it's more like feeling that you can't invoke that attraction in others, and I think this is even harder for Se PoLR men to deal with since it's socially expected for guys to be domineering in that aspect
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
Excellent description. That's exactly what it's like. We're oblivious to a lot of things, and what we do notice, we're never quite sure what it means.
This is also accurate.I mean, you might think that just by showering him with positive
There's also his
Quaero Veritas.
Oh Yellow82! I completely understand where you are coming from I'm practically in the same boat, have thought about saying how I feel out loud. I am very similar to you, only we have dated in the past but it's been over 4 years. I still try and keep him in the friend zone, but he makes it almost impossible at times. He's just so darn cute!
Krig? How can we show that we are interested? I act different around him, I can be ME all the time and I never have to worry who's around to see or hear it, as long as he's around he always has my back... I try and act different around him but I don't know how I can show him or do I just have to come right out and spit it out?
He has told me a few times(intoxicated or sober) that he saw something long term..(marriage?) I asked always has been the same response... I've just always have pushed him aside and now I fear it's too late, every person he ends up I try and be nice but in my head I'm trying not to help her out on how I know he likes his food, how he likes to be massaged, talked to.. well you get my drift! your suggestions on here are helpful!
ESFj.... Fe Subtype
If you've pushed him away in the past, you may have to come right out and spit it out now. INTjs don't trust our own ability to pick up on hints or subtle signals, so even if we notice the hints (which we often don't), we tend to suspect that we're just imagining things and the signals don't really mean what we think they mean. In his mind, whatever you might have told him when you pushed him away probably still overrules any vague hints you might be giving him now.Krig? How can we show that we are interested? I act different around him, I can be ME all the time and I never have to worry who's around to see or hear it, as long as he's around he always has my back... I try and act different around him but I don't know how I can show him or do I just have to come right out and spit it out?
He has told me a few times(intoxicated or sober) that he saw something long term..(marriage?) I asked always has been the same response... I've just always have pushed him aside and now I fear it's too late, every person he ends up I try and be nice but in my head I'm trying not to help her out on how I know he likes his food, how he likes to be massaged, talked to.. well you get my drift! your suggestions on here are helpful!
So yeah, just keep in mind that what you think is a very obvious hint, is probably a mysterious and confusing enigma to him.
Quaero Veritas.
But how do you tell him without initiating?If you've pushed him away in the past, you may have to come right out and spit it out now. INTjs don't trust our own ability to pick up on hints or subtle signals, so even if we notice the hints (which we often don't), we tend to suspect that we're just imagining things and the signals don't really mean what we think they mean. In his mind, whatever you might have told him when you pushed him away probably still overrules any vague hints you might be giving him now.
We really appreciate it when people make it obvious what they feel, in both words and expressions of emotion.
I don't want to push him away further by doing something he's told me is not the girls place. . .
And he hasn't gotten less adamant on the subject - he really firmly believes the girl should be pursued - not the other way around. But that makes it SO hard for me to get the picture across to him clearly without looking creepy.
Blegh. Why does he have to make it so difficult?
Ask somebody to tell him and pretend to be surprised.
okay Krig... so I'm house sitting and I asked him if he would come "keep me company" yes I played the damsel in distress.. but he actually came! Cuddled with me all night seemed like a huge teddy bear! I'm scared... but he's asked me to come over tonight and watch a movie with him... my stomach feels like its going to come out my mouth! I just don't want to push him too much or be available too much for him at a moments notice.. I know I sound crazy, but for the first time in a long time if he asks to hang out I'm always available. HE CUDDLED ME ALL NIGHT!!!! I'm still in shock and he actually made the first move... now only if I could get him to say something other than. "you've never really made me mad" or "I don't hate anything about you" I'm thinking this is his way of asking me the same questions? When we dated in the past the only thing that I can remember us every having a problem with was he not having "enough just us time" and I will admit he would throw his tantrums.. or so I would call them.. how stupid was I back then. So I'm just hoping tonight goes well... I told him I didn't want him to do anything that he would regret... long pause for a good 5 seconds and he responds with I won't if you don't??? What in the world! Plus I feel that he seems a lot more interested in me now that all his friends and some of my friends seems to be into me.. But I have a hard time settling with anyone else because I am constantly comparing every other guy to him.. NO ONE CAN MEASURE UP!!! people don't understand him I always hear.. wow really him?? you can do a lot better... but I'm going to do what a 4 year old tells me all the time "just do it see what happens"
ESFj.... Fe Subtype
Awesome. I wish you well!okay Krig... so I'm house sitting and I asked him if he would come "keep me company" yes I played the damsel in distress.. but he actually came! Cuddled with me all night seemed like a huge teddy bear! I'm scared... but he's asked me to come over tonight and watch a movie with him... my stomach feels like its going to come out my mouth! I just don't want to push him too much or be available too much for him at a moments notice.. I know I sound crazy, but for the first time in a long time if he asks to hang out I'm always available. HE CUDDLED ME ALL NIGHT!!!! I'm still in shock and he actually made the first move... now only if I could get him to say something other than. "you've never really made me mad" or "I don't hate anything about you" I'm thinking this is his way of asking me the same questions? When we dated in the past the only thing that I can remember us every having a problem with was he not having "enough just us time" and I will admit he would throw his tantrums.. or so I would call them.. how stupid was I back then. So I'm just hoping tonight goes well... I told him I didn't want him to do anything that he would regret... long pause for a good 5 seconds and he responds with I won't if you don't??? What in the world! Plus I feel that he seems a lot more interested in me now that all his friends and some of my friends seems to be into me.. But I have a hard time settling with anyone else because I am constantly comparing every other guy to him.. NO ONE CAN MEASURE UP!!! people don't understand him I always hear.. wow really him?? you can do a lot better... but I'm going to do what a 4 year old tells me all the time "just do it see what happens"
Quaero Veritas.
Does it mean more to you to love someone or for someone to love you?
as an good looking INTJ I find I'm slightly spoiled by choice as I attract many ESE women and I can notice their feelings even when kept at bay which arouses slight interest but never the same feeling as being in love with them. I remember all too well knowing I was in love once with this particular ESE and how amazing that felt and how inspired I felt. Perhaps this is the worst advice ever but if my experience can be assimilated into and explained by personality and the men your interested in are INTJ well be someone they can love as that is more important and meaningful then telling them you love them. Sounds odd but frankly I have never had the desire to hear a women tell me she loves me-it doesn't appeal to me-instead I have a stronger desire to fall in love with a women than for her to love me. That gives me the reassurance of how what my true feelings are which I suppose is not apparent to INTJ's.
I suppose I have enough love for myself in such a way that I'm not overly concerned with gaining love from others but ironically I succeed often without trying. The real challenge is to love a women as you can only love someone as much as they love themselves and well as you get older and bad experiences start piling up the chances of loving a women becomes less and less.
Ummmmm. . . . both? :wink:Does it mean more to you to love someone or for someone to love you?
There's a confident INTj man here? Wow. That is a find!I suppose I have enough love for myself in such a way that I'm not overly concerned with gaining love from others but ironically I succeed often without trying.
Honestly, you INTj's are a LOT more attractive then you give yourselves credit for - usually. ((There a are a few INTj's that I simply don't like.
I just wish that my male INTj friends realized how attractive they really are. . . they're gorgeous; and they have even more self-confidence problems then I do; and I'm an emotional girl. :wink:
INTj men you are attractive. God made you special. ((And this is from an ESE/ESFj that has found almost all INTj men she has known marriageable material.
Btw, thanks. This is what I'm thinking the INTj that I like thinks --^Perhaps this is the worst advice ever but if my experience can be assimilated into and explained by personality and the men your interested in are INTJ well be someone they can love as that is more important and meaningful then telling them you love them. Sounds odd but frankly I have never had the desire to hear a women tell me she loves me-it doesn't appeal to me-instead I have a stronger desire to fall in love with a women than for her to love me. That gives me the reassurance of how what my true feelings are which I suppose is not apparent to INTJ's.
Glad to know I'm not crazy for thinking that an INTj man could be thinking this way.
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