Ne and Ni, you and I?

[science as magic]

Hmm interesting... I wonder if the peace movement as a whole is connected to this sort of thing. As for violence I condone it I just A) tend not to use it B) think it should be applied justly C) see that it often causes long term problems (like reprisal). Imo it is a useful method for stopping conflict but because of it's dangerous power should most often be avoided.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[science as magic]

I didn't say that... I said INFJs tend to be wussies. EFs vary greatly and I find the ISFJ tough as nails (which I admire). IxFPs it takes a lot of crap to bring out their mean streak generally but once it's out it's out.

[diamond]

I didn't say that... I said INFJs tend to be wussies. EFs vary greatly and I find the ISFJ tough as nails (which I admire). IxFPs it takes a lot of crap to bring out their mean streak generally but once it's out it's out.

No doubt!

[CuriousSoul]

In which they inexorably fail.

Are you suggesting that I actually try to change outcomes?

I think you could. How well do you know any (male) INFJs? We could do with a few on this boad. I think Fe is often the "standard" for emotions and many things are organized presuming that Fe is what people are after, and Fi value types sort of need to try to adjust to this norm, and it is not always easy.

Steve Martin an ESTJ!?

You have the most original "type guesses" Mr. Soul.

No insult, because you might be right.

What would be the point of making totally unoriginal type guesses? :wink: I have seem most of Steve Martin's movies and some interviews of him, and I just cannot see what else he could be. This may sound rather preposterous, but i believe I can usually even in quite atypical cases tell whether ethics is a person's first, second third or fourth function. From each position follows a slightly different style of processing and expressing emotions, and then you can look at many other cues...

A good case for typing celebrities could be made exactly because a lot of the time people have a certain specific notion about every type, typically based on the often rather one-sided type descriptions and just a few confirmed real life cases. I think far more people could take an interest in socionics if we could easily point to a foolproof list of wellknown people and say: "Yes, many ESTJs are like the person you described, but perhaps you could look at this and this person who appear totally different yet share the same type - maybe you could get on with this "version"/(subtype) of the type better?"

I am an INTJ and i kind of get angry easily at stupid comments from people if they are wrong,so how come That an ESFJ is a good idea ,im kind of confused ,considering that they can be tactless and demanding ,which is a very difficult someone to be living with.Especially an INTJ won't put up with that kind of an attitude ,i think,cause an INTJ is very independent and sometimes very uncompromising in his patience with people??

thisis cause,ESFJ is kind of the only type INTJ can kind of totally Trust anD kind of feel totaLLy secure To bE With "if you can't cope with stupid kind of comments?...,//; then you can always find yourself kind of intelligent ESFJ,!!
http://www.socionics.com/advan/qa080603.htm

Oh, and I don't think "wussiness" would correpond with F. Bad, angry, rebellious emotions are also still emotions. The INFJ would just focus on them more. I think that "wussiness" would probably correspond to INxx if anything, but this would probably be a very weak correlation.

Now you are confusing things again. Everybody has emotions, ethical types just process the emotional content of communication and all information more consciously than logical types, in communication focus on and study people's feelings and emotional state based on nonverbal information and how things are said, and the emotions of logical types often appear all the stronger and more genuine exactly because they are less diluted by any uncertainties or "second guessing". For example ENTPs have Fe as their subconscious function of authority, and once they believe something is intuitively right, ENTPs can be very confident in their ethical judgments...

Although, it's an infj's nature to help others, they can
use their keen understanding of man against man if the situation requires. Infj's gone wrong can be great manipulators, although it is not really their nature, it is possible when pushed to that point, when their game-playing estp shadow sneaks into the scene.

I do not believe in this shadow type. It looks to me like one of these strange MBTI ideas, although it seems to be based on Jung's idea - and conflicting types do have the same conscious (and subconscious) functions, only in the exactly opposite order - but I have read the shadow type descriptions and they all seemed pretty similar. When people are angry or stressed out they tend to behave in less than perfect manner, but beyond that I do not see great regularities. I could be wrong of course, I have not studied the matter that carefully.

[science as magic]

In which they inexorably fail.

Are you suggesting that I actually try to change outcomes?

I think you could. How well do you know any (male) INFJs? We could do with a few on this boad. I think Fe is often the "standard" for emotions and many things are organized presuming that Fe is what people are after, and Fi value types sort of need to try to adjust to this norm, and it is not always easy.

I know I could change outcomes but why? Also, I completely disagree about the / thing. I hear people bash far more than because it's "illogicities" get expressed more. And as for the which one is more liked aspect I'd say that's where intertype relations step in and the fact that INFJs make more of negative criticism than they should. I don't know too many INFJs well. They seem too... something. I can't pinpoint what that something is but I want to punch it in the face.

[CuriousSoul]

It could actually be more of a Se vs Si conflict. With extroverted sensing as POLR many things can easily be unpleasant.
Anyway it does seem to me that you usually get a lot of Fe just by being in the company of the strong Fe types. There are all kinds of INFJs of course, but generally the trouble for me seems to be that the lead function often appears almost unnecessary, yet it does impose its demands and limitations.

[science as magic]

No no it's not the that pisses me off (although that is a contibuting factor). I don't know what it is. Anyway, I do get A LOT just by being around types. Even if none of it is directed at me it just cheers me up knowing that it is "out there" somewhere making someone happy Ah ... I feel better just thinking about it.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[fever]

Hey fever, I have a question for you:

When someone pisses you off, do you then find ways not to like them (unrelated to the event that made you angry), or do you place more importance on the actual event that made you angry in the first place?

Say, if your boyfriend made you angry enough to break up, will you consider the event (and all the other similar events) when considering your descision, or will you use the event as a starting point to realize all the other things about him that did not match up with what you wanted or needed?

Say, if he was violent and angry and one day got pissed and broke something. Would you then consider the fact that he is very angry and this you don't need, or would you then consider all the other unrelated things that he does that you don't want or need (such as he doesn't have enough motivation, etc.)?

If this is a boyfriend situation...
and i have been dating them for awhile and care a lot for them

if everything is going smoothe up until the event....then i would only consider the event. the event's affect on the relationship would be circumstantial depending on that particular event and its significance.

If this is a boyfriend situation....

And there are other things about them that i don't like or they don't seem to be what i want, then i may use a particular event as an excuse to get away from them.


Usually, not too long after I meet someone, if there are any bad vibes, i usually pick them up quickly...sort of hyper-awareness for this sort of thing. For example, a tendency for a boyfriend to be violent....well, one boyfriend i had acted like he was going to slam his hand down on the hood of his car one time but missed on purpose. From the looks of it, it might would seem he could be potentially aggressive or violent.....but I never had that feeling about him despite this. He was an extremely gentle person and never even raised his voice.

i dated another guy about once or twice. he seemed like an ok person at first, but then for some reason, i don't know, i just felt like he would be a violent person even though he never demonstrated any violent gestures. i think it is just the overall perception of that person or their personality.

As far as boyfriends and friends, i don't try to find reasons not to like them. i know who i connect with and who i don't and as long as they haven't done anything to me, why wouldn't i like them? the people i connect with, i may get irritated at them or them at me, but minor things i get over and forgive pretty easy, but i don't tolerate betrayal. i don't see any point in being friends with someone again if they have betrayed me, as i would just be sitting myself up for it to happen again.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[science as magic]

Hmm... I was thinking the same thing but the aversion to violence was also included (Se avoidant as PoLR mayhaps).

[CuriousSoul]

i've tested both INFJ on MBTI and socionics. According to MBTI typing that makes my functions (Ni, Fe, Ti, Se) which corresponds to socionics INFP functions in model A 1,2, 6, and 5 where 1 block is Ni, 2 is Fe, 6 is Ti, and 5 is
Se, thus the ego and superid for the INFP..

Sorry that it took me a while to answer. I was also trying to figure out something to say about INFP/INFJ differences but it is difficult. Input from INFPs would be needed... Tests do not work very well, but they still seem to work better than any other method known to man (or woman.) If you tested INFJ on both MBTI and socionics then the chances are you are an INFJ.

My current theory is that the rational/irrational or perveiving/judging scale is poorly defined. The questions tend to reflect fitness for work and thus logical types who identify themselves according to their ability to think and act consistently logically and responsibly are likely to often test as rationals even when they are irrationals. Conversely ethical types who identify more closely with their emotions and ethical judgment and behavior but are unsure of their ability to work and get things done will often test as irrational even they are rational types. Thus I believe it is far more likely for INFJs to test as INFPs than for INFPs as INFJs.

You could be an INFJ also because you seem to be willing to change your opinion when presented with new evidence. For INFJs extraverted logic Te is according to socionics the fifth subconscious suggestive function and thus:
The individual feels good when others explain to him what he is experiencing in this aspect of reality and what he should do about it. One’s opinions in this area are easily influenced. Without others’ care and concern one feels like an abandoned child. A person rarely feels ashamed about problems related to his fifth function and can easily request help if he sees that others are self-assured in this area. If others speak with an authoritative tone, one listens carefully to advice having to do with one’s fifth function.
http://www.socionika.com/model.html
(This is one representation of the Model A. See if the functions would seem to fall into their places for you.)

Now, I think the MBTI description for INFJ fits me better especially on www.typelogic.com which would make my model A that of an INFP. But I do not think that the socionics description for INFP fits me, but neither am I sure the socionics INFJ fits either

The trouble I have with most MBTI type descriptions is that they are all so general and vague that they easily seem to fit almost anyone. I wrote about this earlier, you could read for example this thread about my own experiences:
oldforumlinkviewtopic-4.html

Or more theoretical objections to MBTI in general:
http://skepdic.com/myersb.html

Or about the Forer effect: why people are so willing to buy into any test result they get - or why tests seem to work so much better than any other method of typing...
http://skepdic.com/forer.html

...a common case of introverted complexity #47.
In the case of introverted complexity #47http://www.socionics.com/advan/ic47.htm, when I try to answer Kroeger's questions i'm about equally divided. In thinking about this concept, if i am INFJ according to MBTI, then my dominant would supposedly be Ni and auxillary Fe, and when things are not too externally demanding, then I am inclined to be relaxed, procrastinate, more starts than finishes. Otherwise, when things are externally demanding i would rather do a job myself than trust it to someone else to do it and am more inclined to finish what I start. And I'm not really sure about the whole physical, spiritual, emotional, intellectual thing.

Nobody is - and as we do not yet have any good and representative examples to demonstrate how these things would manifest, I am not quite sure whether these S (physical) N (spiritual) F (emotional) T (intellectual) things are suitable for typing. Generally this introverted complexity theory does not, in my opinion, seem to work too well. According to this model I would clearly be a perceiving type - yet that is not the case. Unfortunately the P/J scale is difficult and no one seems to know the answers. I would advice you to just ignore the whole "introverted complexity".

So I am guess Ni is my dominant and Fe auxillary, so therefore socionics INFP. But this does not feel right! I am confused as to what functions manifest and how and also hidden agendas... considering socionics INFJ and INFP types. I don't feel overly concerned with my health, but I don't function well if i am not feeling well, but who does? I would think that my Ti would be consistent with socionics INFJ as the 3rd function in that it seems to be a forever open channel and is a neurosis in that it can often enter in to analyzation paralyzation in whatever situation, idea, or theory i'm analyzing.

What you could still do is to look at how the functions would manifest in different positions. There is, for example, this model written by Kaido, largely based on generally accepted socionics modelling:

Finding your type.

Look, what's the filling of your life, the Programm function, if it's

- it's to love and admire everione
- it's to be loved by someone
- it's knowing much usefull things
- it's getting new understandings
- it's becoming perfect
- to believe into something
- it's seing your self as powerfull and meaningfull to others
- it's being healthy by spirit and by body.

oldforumlinkviewtopic-301.html

It does not seem to always apply and it can be difficult to judge oneself objectively, but there is definitely something to it. If you are an INFJ your program function is Fi and you want to find love (like I :wink: ), if you are INFP your program function is Ni and you want to believe into something. This does not necessarily mean any kind of religious belief, but often more generally an inclination to take up causes, and one may only hope they will be for the good. You could compare the Quadra descriptions, do you feel more at home in the Beta (INFP):

The Beta Quadra's role is the introduction of new orders and orginization for the resistance of environment. The members of this quadra are characterized by their active nature and fighting spirit, and political orientation. This quadra is always accompanied by stomy, dramatic emotions. They are compelled by glory and honor, and do so with self assertion. The Beta Quadra's "age" is youth, as they accept new rules but aren't afraid to fight for themselves.
http://www.the16types.info/groups.php?groupid=6

or Delta (INFJ):

The Delta Quadra's role is the ensuring of a stable environment and a stable source of resources. This is the most conservative group, they value stability. They like high quality goods, and respect talented, uncommon people. The Delta Quadra's "age" is old age, due to their conservatism and wisdom
http://www.the16types.info/groups.php?groupid=8


According to Cone's theory the second function is often more clearly expressed to the outside and what we feel more comfortable using. And as the socionics modelling puts it:
At the same time, when others need our help using our second function, this is seen as acknowledging our success in this area, and we help out with pleasure and enthusiasm. One believes that everyone should have the right to freedom and creativity in this aspect of reality. If no one needs our help in this aspect of reality we feel unneeded. The more those around us need our expertise in this area, the greater our self-actualization in society.
http://www.socionika.com/model.html

And thus it would seem to follow that you feel more comfortable when your second function is actively needed by your loved one(s), and the first function stays more on the background. An INFJ knows what people feel and usually feels more comfortable letting people keep their emotions to themselves - unless or until they ask for advice or help (Fi), and in my experience with ESTPs, for example, the need to constantly entertain them and take care of their unstable moods (Fe) (I am a stud and the world revolves around me, as one tongue-in-cheek description put it) gets quickly very tiring and does not come naturally to me.

Therefore continuing in the same vein:

You are INFJ if:

You want someone who is willing to believe you on your speculations and ability to see what possibilities exist for a situation. (This also manifests itself as belief.)

You are INFP if:

You want someone who is completely dependent on your warm emotional support and your ability to make ethical judgements and regulate the emotional atmosphere. (This could be improved if I get feedback from INFPs, hint, hint)

http://oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=7...r=asc&start=75

Now for Gelenko's description of INFJ...

1. characteristic dispassionate facial expression

true, but not a cold one
but i especially note this as my parents said i did not smile until 5 months old and never smiled much as a kid, although I did not have an unhappy childhood.

2. INFJs do not show intense positive emotions, instead they simply smile.
true....that's why I find it humorous but enjoyable when some people "lose theirself in the moment"....as it is so natural for them

3. The same can be noticed in their intonation. In many cases INFJs have a slim, ascetic figure. Their movements are often quite harsh although not lacking mobility. When walking, INFJs may keep their feet close and parallel to the ground, maintaining a short distance between each step.

all true, but movements are not harsh at all but rather very gentle

4. INFJs are generally very modest, which is also noticeable in their choice of clothes. However from time to time they may wear something very flashy according to the latest fashion especially is noticeable in males.

females too.

It would seem to fit you quite well. I would also agree with Pedro-the-Lion that Se would seem to be your Place of Least Resistance (PoLR), fourth function. I see enough similarities to myself to make me think you are probably an INFJ, although an INFP viewpoint would be needed...

[discourse]

I am with you ,CuriousSoul, that our programm function is so strong that we are not aware of it most of the time and so we usually are concious of our creative function instead.

I don't trust this Ganin's idea finding balance between the intellectual and feeling side or sensing intuitive side used on typing, but I would say that this might be finding balance with your creative function and hidden agenda. INFJ would like to find balance with it's and . What would you say , CuriousSoul?

[indigoroom]

[CuriousSoul]

Kaido, I really do have a silly name, :wink: maybe CS would sound more sensible.

I do not know. The trouble I see is mainly that according to different interpretations of the socionics model(s), functions may be troublesome in many different positions. For example, as an INFJ I am mainly balancing my physical side Si according to Ganin's model. Yet according to Selyutin Si is a function of neurosis for INFPs where they are drawn and yet cannot cope with.

ENTPs are a logical type, yet Te is a function of phobia for them and they may not cope well with routines etc. It is all murky and similar things can be explained in a variety of ways, what is much needed are clear either-or questions that would unmistakably differentiate between the types- yet this seems to be what no one is capable of providing - and thus my frustration with socionics.

***EDIT***

Trey, I was about to correct it, stupid mistake, but the functions go round in a kind of funny way... According to the standard model:

Corresponding Blocks
There are 4 further groupings of blocks besides the ego, superego, superid, and id groupings. These are the corresponding blocks of psyche; you will find supplimenting functions in these blocks.

active will - the first and fifth functions
authority - the second and sixth functions
neurosis - the third and seventh functions
phobia - the fourth and eighth functions
http://www.the16types.info/models.php

[trey]

ENTp Te => strong subconscious function. strong functions under the descriptions i'm assuming you're referring to are active will ("accepting") and authority ("producing"). so it would be authority, not neurosis (weak accepting).

[Cone]

Yet according to Selyutin Si is a function of neurosis for INFPs where they are drawn and yet cannot cope with.

I am working on a theory about these neuroses. Actually, in my experience, the 7th function is much more of a neurosis than the 3rd.

And Fi being "to be loved?" This does make alot of sense. But then Fi being "to love" makes alot of sense, too. Guess there's another theory to work on.

ENTPs are a logical type, yet Te is a function of phobia for them and they may not cope well with routines etc.

Te as routine? Like I can follow any type of routine...(another theory to work on!)

[CuriousSoul]

Cone, I think there is no need for hairsplitting here. When you want to find love, you want someone who accepts and needs your love. One-sided love is just a tragic romantic melodrama. Romantic love is by its nature a two way street.

[trey]

hmm, yep you referenced the information correctly, my mistake. however, i'm still confused by how the block grouping descriptions are seemingly misaligned (to me at least).

[CuriousSoul]

Te as routine? Like I can follow any type of routine...(another theory to work on!)

- ENTps find it hard to keep them organised and disciplined. Because of this they often let everyday matters get out of control. This often leads to the cancellation of business plans, interruption of their work routine and interference in family matters. ENTps do not respond well to pressure.
http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/entp.htm

So according to this interpretation the difficulties are actually caused by their weak sensing function, presumably mainly Se

INTPs again:
- One of INTp problems is that they can be extremely pedantic. Sometimes they pay so much attention to every detail of certain jobs that this waste of time and energy can lead them to become fatigued and even to loose interest in the work. Sometimes they can become obsessed with the quality and freshness of food. Also INTps can have static tastes and habits.
http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/intp.htm

Theory is as theory does. Nevermind the reality.

[fever]

I just want to say something really quick on this. It is strange that u mentioned this....i know it has been a little over a week since u posted the idea of Steve Martin being an ESTJ, but it was such a strange coincidence when u posted it because the night before i had been analyzing his behaviour in the movie "Father of the Bride II" as it was on satellite (*note , I keep a tv on most of the time, but hardly ever really watch it). It was just strange because i was thinking about socionics and VI and Steve Martin's type based on physical characteristics and actions.....and then the next day u mentioned Steve Martin. Why Stever Martin.....why not Robert DeNiro? weird, because i had been intensely focusing on this particular actor at length just observing him in the movie just making notes in my mind about his gestures, actions, features and so forth...pushed it to the back of my mind to do some figuring on later provided better understanding and more info on the types...

i thought it was just worth mentioning...I am by NO means claiming to be psychic or have special powers! One thing that does happen sometimes though is that I will get a specific person on my mind.....maybe someone that I haven't even seen for a long, long time or even a person i only have encountered once (like that teenage cashier at a quikpic i stopped at just passing through)....and out of the clear blue, let's say three years later, my intuition just tells me that something is wrong, something is wrong with this person, sometimes it might be a danger sense, a sense of depression, or that, that person is struggling with some aspect of their life...just pops out of nowhere for some reason. CuriousSoul, do you ever experience anything similar to this?

oh, and back to Steve Martin......he may be an ESTJ, the VI definatly resembleshttp://ru.laser.ru/socion/references/filatova/estj/
Check out the female ESTJ top row, farthest one to the right. Also his neck does seem to have a certain tension/stiffness to it...like in this pic.


Without knowing the actor personally it is hard to say what type he or any other celebrity is for that manner.....so the whole celebrity thing could be misleading as they are just playing the characters on screen. (I think u mentioned this somewhere else.)

i would lean more towards ESTJ from VI for Martin or maybe there is a slight possibility he is an ESTP with that characteristic (ESTP squint)....but that is just from a VI perspective. I would think as the 6th function would make acting more of a challenge, nevertheless there are still actors of all types.

it is hard for me to comment on this ESTJ thing as i am not very familar with them and like u have never dated or had any close relations with this type.

[indigoroom]

and out of the clear blue, let's say three years later, my intuition just tells me that something is wrong, something is wrong with this person, sometimes it might be a danger sense, a sense of depression, or that, that person is struggling with some aspect of their life...just pops out of nowhere for some reason. CuriousSoul, do you ever experience anything similar to this?

I'm so frequently in these intuitions that sometimes i'm scared. but at the end usualy i'm right about the person.

yeah and its exactly "poping out of nowhere"

right now i have sense of danger from Hugo

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[CuriousSoul]

Um isn't it ?

Yes, of course Pedro-the-Lion. I corrected the original post. I am ashamed of my lapsus - and so I should be.
My Quadra Value is of course Te , the infamous "Business Logic", "Logic of the Objective World". I deleted your original post in order not to confuse those who should stumble upon this thread later - and to bury my mistake. Thank you for pointing it out.

[CuriousSoul]

I just want to say something really quick on this. It is strange that u mentioned this....i know it has been a little over a week since u posted the idea of Steve Martin being an ESTJ, but it was such a strange coincidence when u posted it because the night before i had been analyzing his behaviour in the movie "Father of the Bride II" as it was on satellite (*note , I keep a tv on most of the time, but hardly ever really watch it). It was just strange because i was thinking about socionics and VI and Steve Martin's type based on physical characteristics and actions.....and then the next day u mentioned Steve Martin. Why Stever Martin.....why not Robert DeNiro? weird, because i had been intensely focusing on this particular actor at length just observing him in the movie just making notes in my mind about his gestures, actions, features and so forth...pushed it to the back of my mind to do some figuring on later provided better understanding and more info on the types...

I cannot say, maybe there is something in the air... Of course he has had quite a many movies coming out and he is one of the best paid Hollywood stars, so it is not really that big coincidence. I do not really even know that many actors well enough to venture any guesses... Of course without knowing him personally - or indeed his real personality outside of his roles - I could easily be mistaken. Anyway there are ESTJs out there who are not altogether different from Steve Martin in Father of the Bride, for example, to make my point...

i would lean more towards ESTJ from VI for Martin or maybe there is a slight possibility he is an ESTP with that characteristic (ESTP squint)....but that is just from a VI perspective. I would think as the 6th function would make acting more of a challenge, nevertheless there are still actors of all types.

That squint did get me thinking... I would still say that he may still well be an ESTJ - not all ESTP have the squint and many people with other types do - as far as I can say of course. VI is a pain in the *** because looks can be deceiving - as you know - and we do not really have any reliable guidelines to follow: what things to observe carefully and what you should rather overlook, etc.

i thought it was just worth mentioning...I am by NO means claiming to be psychic or have special powers! One thing that does happen sometimes though is that I will get a specific person on my mind.....maybe someone that I haven't even seen for a long, long time or even a person i only have encountered once (like that teenage cashier at a quikpic i stopped at just passing through)....and out of the clear blue, let's say three years later, my intuition just tells me that something is wrong, something is wrong with this person, sometimes it might be a danger sense, a sense of depression, or that, that person is struggling with some aspect of their life...just pops out of nowhere for some reason. CuriousSoul, do you ever experience anything similar to this?

Sometimes kind of yes. Like when you just happen to be thinking of someone you have not seen for years and then suddenly happen to meet quite accidentally. Usually not that much though, I guess it is individual, and I may have just got used to not trusting my "psychic powers".

it is hard for me to comment on this ESTJ thing as i am not very familar with them and like u have never dated or had any close relations with this type.

I was just wondering, do you think there is any particular type you find attractive, or do you think it is just a question of individual personalities?

[fever]

I know i'm kind of talking in circles here.

i can see some infp in me, but mostly infj. the j/p thing threw me but i understand it better now.

You could be an INFJ also because you seem to be willing to change your opinion when presented with new evidence. For INFJs extraverted logic Extraverted Thinking Te is according to socionics the fifth subconscious suggestive function and thus:

good thinking!

It does not seem to always apply and it can be difficult to judge oneself objectively, but there is definitely something to it. If you are an INFJ your program function is Fi and you want to find love (like I :wink: ), if you are INFP your program function is Ni and you want to believe into something. This does not necessarily mean any kind of religious belief, but often more generally an inclination to take up causes, and one may only hope they will be for the good.

yep, want to find love, but also to understand people.

You are INFJ if:

You want someone who is willing to believe you on your speculations and ability to see what possibilities exist for a situation. (This also manifests itself as belief.)

yep, more infj than infp

Transigent and made a lot of good points and i think they also believe i am infj. I believe u all are right. Thanks!

that is the thing with the introverts and the j/p? u can seem like both or either one! but on closer examination, now i do think infj fits me better.

[fever]

guest=fever

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[science as magic]

@Transigent how did it end and why?

My ENTP friend was in a relationship with an INFJ and it didn't seem super supervisery but he was far far too needy for her. I think the supervision came out in the fact that she kept trying to limit his emotional expression into little channels that it wouldn't fit into. I think the supervision is relative to what the supervising function is.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[fever]

I usually end up feeling unjustly "supervised" by people who just think I am stupid and try to constantly explain things to me, and the worst relationships seem to be when people question my impulsiveness and lack of thinking before I act.

i'm going to generalize here a lot...but my take on entp' is they are highly creative people, and i don't think u have to be around entp's very long and not realize they are pretty intelligent. i doubt u ever get bored, as u never know what to expect from them! i guess their impulsiveness and lack of thinking before they act is what might make other people feel like they need to supervise them, because it seems like they can be a little shifty in their follow through, but maybe it is not because they think they are stupid. types seem to vary on their opinion of what intelligence is, beacause they all seem to value different things that they would classify as intelligent........gee, i wish i could remember where i read that from!

I kinda got into some "bad things", she was always very clear (childhood) about how she didn't like certain "bad things", and when I did get into those "bad things" I knew she would have a big problem with that so I made myself distant to kind of let the relationship fizzle out.

what types do u seem to be the most compatible with? not compatible? and once u find that u have chemistry with someone, do u find it hard to meet new people and establish this again? and one more....what is your take of as the POLR?

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[fever]

u seem entp-ish...u and slava both seem entp-ish, although both of u still seem to be questioning whether u r entp/intj or at least appear to be questioning the entp/intj thing. i doubt an intj would be questioning whether or not he might be entp...or at least not for long. entp's seem to be for the most part good at putting on disguises (especially around S types) or appearing different than what they actually are. i'd say they are probably the biggest purchasers of erotic costumes...into a lot of kinky stuff. their sexual fantasies are probably along the lines of.....being captured by a hungry pack of dominant female aliens with exaggerated body parts and big teeth! slava's idea of selling porn tailored to the individual types....it has entp written all over it.

more "personal" people consider me to be quite insightful almost right away because I sometimes show a knack of knowing what is going on in thier minds.

It is this kind of thing that has led me to question my "ENTp-ness" (in the process probably writing way too much stuff, and annoying some folks.)

this is probably because of strong in the ego. people are matter, matter+energy(people) interact with other matters+energies(people), and by watching them and using Ne/Ni to pick up on things....u can see the effects(T)/affect(F) of their interactions. entp's can be very keen at this...although they may approach it in a (seeing the patterns), (logical/cause&effect) type of way.

entp's might think or like to appear intj...because they are often seen as lacking stucture and stability(J) rather than (T), although (P's) can be more dependable than (J's) especially if is their POLR and they run short on their time! in a job situation entp might like to appear intj (whether it be because of a boss or etc) or for obtaining respect from the types that have
contrary intertype relations with entp's. also entp's might sink into intj depression, if they are not being appreciated for their entp-ness. they definately need an enviroment that continuously stimulates their creativity and appreciates their unique flipside logic... this is essential for them to maintain their homeostasis/balance.

i hope this isn't taken negatively....this is just my take entp's based on the couple i have known b4. oh, yeah, and let me know if i'm seeming supervisory as well or if i'm stomping on some weak functions unconciously, as i'm trying to understand the relations of supervision...and whether this had anything to do with me not liking an esfp or if it was just an individual thing. i wonder if the relations of supervision are the same if the types have the same perceiving function (N) compared to different perceiving functions (N)&(S)?

i'm also trying to figure out the being infj POLR, because i don't understand how it is for me...as u first brought up the subject of violence and b/f's. i'm always paying attention to any personality traits a person has both good and bad, but i don't specificly look to see whether this person is possibly violent. i'm not even aware of it unless they make some kind of wild gesture. i wouldn't be any more aware of this than any other things they did, like if i thought they were lying, too surface, etc.

i would think that as POLR for intj/infj might be more about physical strength or "grit" for males than for females. i'm also a pretty assertive person. but definately i'm oblivious to my physical surrounding a high percentage of the time. that is what is confusing about model A, u kind of see it and u kind of don't.

[science as magic]

absolutely brilliant fever

Also the whole sex thing gave me a good laugh. Thanks for that.

[Creepy-]

u seem entp-ish...u and slava both seem entp-ish,

Ah, but it is difficult to type somebody based only on what they say in the forums. It is tempting, yes, but many of the things that I have written would not be said in the real world. Kind of like how you cannot type an actor based on what roles they play.

Because remember, socionics is how the psyche itself is structured. For example, on a certain INTP forum they are all "loving" each other, but this is only because it is not real life; they can say on the forums what they would not dare to say in the real world.

i'd say they are probably the biggest purchasers of erotic costumes...into a lot of kinky stuff. their sexual fantasies are probably along the lines of.....being captured by a hungry pack of dominant female aliens with exaggerated body parts and big teeth! slava's idea of selling porn tailored to the individual types....it has entp written all over it.

Hahaha! Funny. And scary too!

more "personal" people consider me to be quite insightful almost right away because I sometimes show a knack of knowing what is going on in thier minds.

It is this kind of thing that has led me to question my "ENTp-ness" (in the process probably writing way too much stuff, and annoying some folks.)

this is probably because of strong in the ego. people are matter, matter+energy(people) interact with other matters+energies(people), and by watching them and using Ne/Ni to pick up on things....u can see the effects(T)/affect(F) of their interactions. entp's can be very keen at this...although they may approach it in a (seeing the patterns), (logical/cause&effect) type of way.

I was thinking the same thing, Ne as a dominant can give insights into the nature of a person no matter what the secondary function is, and psychology is especially a T subject. (I think?) Perhaps Ni can do the same thing, but I am not quite clear on that function yet.

The T/F scale has whipped me, I am so lost on that it is not even funny. Right now I am leaning toward T for me, only because of the fact that I am physically incapable of doing anything "evil". If I ever do anything that is "bad" I feel guilty afterwards and I want to reverse the situation. I conduct my actions toward others by imagining what it would be like to be them, and acting accordingly.

Apparently this one-sided "goodness" is a T trait, and only F types have the capability to be pure evil. (Not to say that all are, just to say that some can be.)

I am not an F because it is said that F types are concerned with "morals". Things like morals have never been interesting or applicable to me because I think that either something is right or something is wrong, and this is felt inside and cannot be analyzed with a system of moral rights and wrongs. I actually hate the subject, and I somewhat agree with Oscar Wilde when he says: "Any preoccupation with ideas of what is right or wrong in conduct shows an arrested development."

Not to insult anyone of course, just a quote to encompass my "inner view".

entp's might think or like to appear intj...because they are often seen as lacking stucture and stability(J) rather than (T), although (P's) can be more dependable than (J's) especially if is their POLR and they run short on their time!

I was thinking INTj because of the Ti bent, the hidden agenda, and the fact that I feel like I am an introvert at heart.

i hope this isn't taken negatively....this is just my take entp's based on the couple i have known b4. oh, yeah, and let me know if i'm seeming supervisory as well or if i'm stomping on some weak functions unconciously, as i'm trying to understand the relations of supervision...and whether this had anything to do with me not liking an esfp or if it was just an individual thing.

(To make the paragraph simple, the Supervisor will be the JUDGE and the Supervisee will be the MEAN.)

From my understanding of the Supervisory relationships, the MEAN gets the impression from the JUDGE that the JUDGE's very essense embodies what the MEAN feels is wrong about himself.

The MEAN may lash out, and get annoyed because he feels constantly oppressed by the JUDGE, and no matter what is done in the relationship, the MEAN will constantly feel this heat. The MEAN will be, in general, irritated in the presence of the JUDGE, and any suggestion from the JUDGE to the MEAN will be taken in the worst way, and the MEAN may become indignant and hateful.

If you can wade through the bad translation, here is a great description of the supervisor relation from the russian website. (The examples are the gold in this.)

It is appropriate to emphasize: the special feature of the relations of this kind - in their asymmetry, in the fact that the inspector, not oshchushchaya of pressure on themselves, can approach that inspected up to the dangerously close distance. Certainly, it hardly would be decided to this, if it were located with it with respect to the conflict, where the danger - it was mutual.

But how this "proximity" oshchushchayet that inspected?

In principle, of each person to characteristically speak out on those questions, toward which is directed his primary attention, especially, if series of these questions is determined by its strongest function. Those surrounding can appear to this interest or indifference - depending on their curiosity. But that inspected to any such observation is extremely sensitive, assumes it too closely to the heart, since the pressure on its vulnerable III channel here goes.

However, as far as inspector is concerned, for it these relations they prove to be, after all, not very pleasant, but to their harmony: it in no way can understand, why this - that not say to that inspected, it is compulsory offence, tear, irritation or unexpected aggression. It seems inspector that its partner is too not restrained, irritable, only which - is locked in itself, that before it always it is necessary to walk "on tsypochkakh". however, "4 I tell it this without any intention to sting or to offend! - is surprised inspector. - why this reaction?"

Example of this type of the relations:

Student b. (ILE, the Don Quixote) lies on the bed at his usual state - scrutinizes ceiling and reflects about the model of the universe. Its neighbor on the hostel s. (LSI, Maxim)"according to graph" it is prepared for the test. It irritates the fact that b., from its point of view, loafs, it does not love to work, but for it for some reason everything are succeeded in passing well. In this s. it sees the highest injustice. Interrupting silence, s. suddenly with the irritation fires:

"instead of being dragged along, it would put in order on its utility cabinet! See, what of bardak divorced!" "well and that?" - it does be surprised At b. iy incomprehensibly, what this s. so raskipyatilsya? And generally, why in its presence s. it is constantly raised and irritated?

In reality, most of all s. derive from itself cold inaccessibility b., its happy-go-lucky freedom, its donkikhotskaya intuition, which makes possible for it to see eventual result without the regular routine work, on that is not completely capable LSI... But hardly it returns to itself in this report.

But here is another example of the relations of revision, stsenka in the dean's office. This time as the inspector comes out LSI. Energetic, always merry and cheerful l. (See, Napoleon) is entire in the tears:

- I curse that day, when it arrived to work in this dean's office! Here I can make anything, I feel itself in the manner that as if nothing I be able to reason in the work!

At another table - its nachal'nitsa a. (LSI, Maxim), very quiet, correct woman, in the large confusion:

however, - but 4 to nothing you I do not constrain, I do not order, I try to you as it is possible less to be turned, I fear excess word to say!

- it is small whether that? Yes you, even if simply you glance, paper will shift to my table, to me and that it is nauseating!

In turn, the same inspector as for it Maxim, Napoleon are for Dostoyevsky:

- 4 anywhere I cannot from it be hidden, complains young woman (EII, Dostoyevsky) about the grandmother (See, Napoleon), into whatever room 4 it is shrewd, whatever made - - it here as here, infinite indications. Even into the store I cannot quietly descend, it here with the questions: "why you so for long, with whom you there talked?" - already I do not know, as to be hidden it seems from it that it vezdesushcha!

Itself Dostoyevsky inspects the Don Quixote (ILE). Telling not too decent an anecdote, the Don Quixote continually is examined to Dostoyevsky:

- I not can with you, it seems me, you me condemn...

However, to Dostoyevsky the Don Quixote seems himself too sensitive that not say - offence, it would seem, at the flat place:

"stands large turn, at the heat, on the sun, I tell in it (Don to Quixote): "sit there, in tenechke, 4 one to billeting", and it suddenly explodes: "where you me chase, why I must there sit?" Nothing I understand, whereas 4 she wanted it to make only better!"

As we see, Dostoyevsky in turn obizhen: man really wanted to make a good deed, but this capricious familiar (Don Quixote) everything understands "not so"... Circle locked.

But now visualize that the representatives of these four psycho-types proved to be in one association, on top of that and they work in one room! Entire their operating time will be devoted to the explanation of relations.

But this in no way means that in the room were gathered "poor people". One should understand well that each celovek by itself - not squabbler, not brawler, not villain. Each, as a rule, is attempted to be with all in good relations. However, if they were encountered the inspector and inspected, for whom prolonged interaction is in prospect - conflict is inevitable.

True, if contact occurs according to the functions, excluded from channels I and III, this conflict it can arise not immediately. Here is an even smaller example: the manager of scientific laboratory d. (SLE, Zhukov) he appointed the leader of group n. (LEAHS, Robesp'er).

i wonder if the relations of supervision are the same if the types have the same perceiving function (N) compared to different perceiving functions (N)&(S)?

I wonder that too. I am thinking that perhaps each relationship of the same type has a different "flavor" to it. Say, if the "supervised" function is introverted or extroverted might make a big difference to how much a relationship seems "supervised".

i'm also trying to figure out the being infj POLR, because i don't understand how it is for me...as u first brought up the subject of violence and b/f's. i'm always paying attention to any personality traits a person has both good and bad, but i don't specificly look to see whether this person is possibly violent. i'm not even aware of it unless they make some kind of wild gesture. i wouldn't be any more aware of this than any other things they did, like if i thought they were lying, too surface, etc.

POLR is confusing, because I think that there are many different types of manifestations a person can choose.

Let me ask you a question, in your "supervisory" relationship, was it the other person's will power, authority, and physical "presense" that made you miserable? Or was it something else?

Whatever made you miserable in that "supervisor" relationship (IF you are both typed correctly) is exactly that which is your POLR.

i would think that as POLR for intj/infj might be more about physical strength or "grit" for males than for females.

I think it has to do with presense and acute awareness of details. Females have the same type of "stuff" according to this function as males do, only I think that the Intuitive females are "out there" more, making it seem like women are the less willful sex, which is not really true. At least, that is my take on it.

that is what is confusing about model A, u kind of see it and u kind of don't.

You said it!

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[discourse]

This is true as we, ENTPs, become to look as INTJs under the depression what has made me to think if I am not actually INTJ, but when the bad mood goes away and somebody is good for me I become back to ENTP. Perhaps this is related to my irrationality that I am freely do accept new knowledge for my self and will think that I might be someone elsse than ENTP. But I know I am wrong as the relations around me show clearly that everithing going on my life can be explained through the relations between my type and their types.

is a strong function when it is in your conciousness as it makes you to feel what others are hidding in their souls. When you feel your self in that sad mood what you as ENTP at times feel, you may become aware of this all.

Transigent. Do you become sentimental at times and say things off your soul sometimes to very close people? Like Eminem f.e , but you do it with your friends. This touchy mood seems to be one thing common to ENTPs.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[discourse]

Sorry I can't give any advice to you as I have Ethical functions week and I feel my self very doubting when there is need for me to help others to understand their feelings. Usually I am emotionless inside just having this sad mood over and over goming form lack of joy in my life.

But you seem to be more like T and N as F types have skills to get over from bad mood, they just know how to think positively and N seems to be strong as you know well what is going on inside your soul and S types are not so well aware of that.

Sorry that I can't help you as I am clomsy at psychology. Even that ESFJ girl knows that.

But when someone asks what type I think you are I would say ENTP.