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Thread: Supersocion Theory explained

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    As I see it, the process of individuation -- its internal, graduated aspect at least -- infers that most of us learn to find peace with ourselves as we get older, effectively mitigating our faults bit by bit through direct interaction with the subconscious ranges of information which take vengence for our having them. Of course the bit-by-bit part is only a conscious effort to try to understand the subconscious on consciousness' terms. Ultimately we must be willing to let the subconscious have a say in our considerations to really understand it, but in all likelyhood the capacity to do so is a genetically induced transformation made possible by changes in the relationship between brain regions and the flow of chemicals between them. The brain has a lot of self-regulating mechanisms which are very difficult to overcome, so in normal people at least the potential for personality change is limited.

    According to Jung, "man" becomes more interested in cultural pursuits when he enters his second half of life. Under psychic domain theory, Jung, as a liberal universalist, would be referring to man as progressive universalism. (obviously "man" would not be referring to the adaptists and traditionalists, whom have a strong interest in culture as a regulator of behavior throughout their lives.) This is an important change because it is on the matter of the opposing axis that the two poles of an axis can agree: specialists and universalists both stand to lose from a social program that exhalts life above experience (see communism), and traditionalists and adaptists can see the problems with a lifestyle that holds psychological matters of ideology and internal contentedness above imminent existential concerns. (consider modern indepedent critiques of the two party system in the United States, and too, its vulnerability to Sept. 11.) Each axis agrees on a middle ground by which to meet its opposite. The effective outcome of say, a universalist and a specialist learning to put aside their negative projections of each other to take a common stand on cultural trends (the apparent substance of American politics), is a permanent. I believe this happens because one learns/acquires the ability to let the dual-seeking function act as a direct advisor to the role function, thus enabling a cross-domain receptivity to 5th function content as a means of determining one's role. Although I can't offer a lot of specifics right now, the essence of the change is a permanent relationship between yourself and all of your duals across all domains, meaning that even among your ideosyncratic opposition, one out of 16 of them have your back, and will vouch for your usefulness to them.

    The way I see it, most of us are going to learn to put our differences aside someday anyhow, so why not make the good faith effort to understand people the way of individuation is gonna bring you into reconciliation with anyway? On the other hand, there appear to be some people who are lacking the ability altogether to process all eight domain perspectives of a given subconscious function. These people can't engage you in reconcilation at all: their biases make any meeting of the minds very difficult, if not impossible. I refer to these people as immanent, because they desire total psychic domain/dyad purity in their functions, looking at everything that is even indirectly antagonistic to their native domain as a kind of blight to be purged at all costs.

    I suspect a lot of the hostility on this forum is due to the efforts of immanent persons. (I'm talking about Phaedrus in particular.)

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    so how does one's slave-type interact with another person's master-type? In my relations with other people I've always gravitated towards logical types. In fact out of the 9 people that I'd call friends (i've known each for at least 3 years) they're:
    2 ESTp-Ti
    ESTp-Se
    INTj-Ne
    ENTp-Ne
    INTp-Ni
    ENTj-Te
    INFj-Ne
    ENFj-Ni

    I now think I'm INFp-INxx, does that pattern of relations indicate anything of my slave type? Is an intuitive master-type with an intuitive subtype (i.e. INTj-Ne) more likely to have an intuitive slave-type?
    INFp-Ni

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    I think I might be INTj-ESxx, or something like that, but now I'm questioning everything about my type.

    @tcaudilllg Could you explain more about the introvert versus the extravert slave function?

    @labcoat This is probably just my own idiocy, but could you label which of those questions for one's slave type correlate to which info element?
    type #33
    but maybe LSE, and maybe E3w4(p)

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    It's why you have a mana bar, not a rage bar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat

    That would mean that the kind of conflict that we presume exists between people of conflicting Information Domains can be explained using only the socionics types. We constatate that this is not the case. People with conflicting socionics types have very little reason to 'hate' eachother when there is not also Information Domain conflict going on. Under normal circumstances, socionics type conflict means little more than awkwardness.
    This has definitely been my experience. I have a conflictor with whom we share information domains and there's no hatred or even inability to get along. Just a wrinkle of my nose at him when he does things in a way I would never think to do because I don't value the same things.

    Your theories are very very interesting. I need to read more.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Default Supersocion Concept: Domain Leaders and Followers

    From Wikisocion
    (http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...rsocion_theory)

    Domain leadership theory integrates both transcendent function theory and psychic domain theory. Domain leadership theory stipulates that some people are particularly talented at relating the opinion of their own domain with those of others. (so-called "strong willed" or "novel" people) These are the world's natural leaders. The practice of opinion relation is one of mediating one's conscious functions with their subconscious contraries, with specific focus on the role of psychic domains in each element's manifestation. If mediation between two contraries is possible, then the work of mediation is called "reconciliation energy"; if impossible, then no mediation will take place and all energies which would have gone towards reconciliation will be instead concentrated on the filtration of subconscious content on basis of its relevance to one's own psychic domain and the denial of all irrelevant content thereto. (this is called "denial energy")

    The mediations of domain leaders are emulated by domain followers, who although unequipped psychologically to domain mediate themselves, can attempt to replicate a successful mediatory argument they have observed a domain leader perform previously. In this context the contrast between domain leaders and domain followers is one of "active" vs "passive" mediation. Domain followers are like to exhalt the figures of domain leaders who pose especially effective cross-domain arguments, interpreting awareness of the leader's persuasive technique as a proven means of relating oneself to society. However, domain followers schizm along the same lines as domain leaders in regards to domain reconciliation: if the person has an irreconciliable aversion to a psychic domain in the context of a given function (confrontational immanence), they will seek to emulate expressions of denial energy, as opposed to reconciliation energy, in the context of the contrary relationship.

    It is believed that domain leadership theory is an improved model of public relations theory's "opinion leader" concept.

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    Thank you for your thread tcaudilllg...

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    Default Supersocion: Psychic Domain Theory as Model-A

    From all appearances, +/- is the (precise) modeling of Freud/Jung's libido concept. There seem to me two ways you can actually increase a function's content: by increasing its size, scope and scale, or by increasing its quality, integrity, and self-cohesion. It's a difference of motive for life, which seeks to expand, vs consciousness, which seeks to improve. What this means to supersocion theory, is that the life and consciousness axes of psychic domain theory have been identified as unmodeled characteristics of Augusta/Jung's theory. (we don't speak of just Augusta anymore, because now we are also at last bringing clarity of Jung's intuitions.)

    (there is a category for supersocion theory on Wikisocion which explains psychic domain theory, in the "Hypotheses" section.)


    Addendum: In light of the desire in the self for balance between the functions (+/-), there does seem room for a postulation that some people can observe the balancing of a given function (I said function, not element) with its contrary better than others. This is the trait correspondent to domain leadership.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 01-03-2008 at 01:05 PM.

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    Default Reconciliation of Crosstype Theory with Supersocion Theory

    Back in 2005 I had very little understanding of socionics as an information theory. I didn't understand function orders or even the different function roles in large part. That came later, when Rick put up his socionics.us site. Sergei Gannin's site is notoriously light on the specifics, and those who, like me, found his site first came away with the mistaken impression that MBTI, Jung, and socionics were all part of the same theoretical basket.

    I read into some vague "hints" by Jung (intuitive insights he never bothered to elaborate on; his works are full of these) and attempted to reconcile concepts like E and I, S and N, etc. as a basis for "balanced" personality traits. These led to crosstype theory. I conceived of an extrovert/introvert cross as comfort with leadership, which I saw as an object-independent manipulation of the object. (the object, by Jung's standard, was anything outside one's own immediate person; the external world, so to speak.) Thinking reconciled with feeling I perceived of as manipulation, specifically on behalf of one's own interest: a person who asked how feelings could be logically exploited could later. Intuition reconciled with sensation I perceived of as harmony. (to explain for example, profoundly in-touch eloquence and appeal.) Judgement reconciled with perception was none other than genius: the capacity to use irrational methods to control rational thought and to shape irrational reality by means of rational methods. (think of it as the reverse side of T/F)

    The problem was that these ideas were simply incompatible with Model A due to the function role system, which implied that the superiority of one function would entail the inferiority of another. Although they worked in the strange almagam world of MBTI where a majority of people score near the middle on tests (leading to Foerer effect accusations), they were no match for Augusta's strict logical rigor.

    I observed that information elements could follow after each other in ways that could not be explained save by the existence of another type. (I subconsciously filtered out the way complementary and dual functions influenced each other, nor did I understand such at the time because Model A doesn't account for it, only Model B does). These observations lead to dual-type theory. (which I consider correct and, I can say with confidence, consistent with experience.) Although dual-type theory implies that one may not have the same competence of execution that a person may have with metabolism, no dual-type pairing implies that a person will be an effective leader or a sociopath. These observations belong to seperate theories that have since been elaborated on.

    I observe the following correlations between supersocion theory and crosstype theory:

    - T/F crossing correlates to the concept of shadow types who use their ego functions to enhance their id functions, and their superego functions to enhance their superid functions. (degrading consciousness thereby in favor of lesser differentiated content.) This results in the behavior associated with various personality disorders and can collectively be labeled sociopathic in the non-leadership type and psychopathic in the leader type.

    - E/I crossing correlates to domain leadership theory.

    - S/N crossing correlates directly to dual-type theory meta-S/Ex-N and meta-N/Ex-S. (this aspect of the theory was accurate and survived.)

    - J/P crossing correlates to a creative leader of dual-type meta-rationational/Ex-irrational etc. of the same.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    - J/P crossing correlates to a creative leader of dual-type meta-rationational/Ex-irrational etc. of the same.
    If you're looking for the truely cerebral, genius-like dual type combinations, I suggest you take the Process/Result dichotomy in account aswell.

    As a general rule:
    Result - quick on it's feet, strategical, decisive, shallow, likes tools that can solve many different problems
    Process - cerebral, executive, indepthly studying, likes to solve problems; to find the perfect tools adjusted to them

    Combinations of J/P and Process/Result make for all kinds of thought styles, each with their own talents and weaknesses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    If you're looking for the truely cerebral, genius-like dual type combinations, I suggest you take the Process/Result dichotomy in account aswell.

    As a general rule:
    Result - quick on it's feet, strategical, decisive, shallow, likes tools that can solve many different problems
    Process - cerebral, executive, indepthly studying, likes to solve problems; to find the perfect tools adjusted to them

    Combinations of J/P and Process/Result make for all kinds of thought styles, each with their own talents and weaknesses.
    You would be a process type and I would be a result type, right? (exertion speaking of course.) Or did I get that backwards? (I forget which is which.) That makes a lot of sense, then.

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    I would be Result-Result, you would be Result-Process.

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    Default Notation for Supersocion Theory

    Slave/exertion notation:
    ex-[function];

    Ex. ex-Ti : slave Ti


    Master/Slave (dual-type) pairing:
    [master function]:[slave function]

    Ex. Ti:Se : metabolism Ti blocked with exertion Se


    Foreground/Background (Model B-style) pairing:
    [fore-function]/[back-function]

    Ex. -Ti/+Te : -Ti foreground/+Te background


    Transcendent pairing:
    (same as Model B-style)
    Background transcendent: [fore-function]/[transcended back-function]
    Foreground transcendent/immanent: [transcended fore-function]/ back-function]

    Ex. -Ti/-Te : -Ti foreground/-Te transcended background


    Master Slave Model B-style:
    [fore-master/back-master]:[fore-slave/back-slave]

    Ex. -Ti/+Te:-Se/+Si


    Function Displacement due to Transcendence:
    [displaced function]>|<[displacer function]
    (the intent of the symbol is to show that the functions are in conflict)

    Ex, -Ni>|<+Ni : +Ni blocked against -Ni


    Constructive critique appreciated.

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    Default Supersocion theory: nearing maturation?

    It's getting to the point where I'm seeing less and less unexplained behavioral phenomena. As it stands, supersocion theory pretty much accounts for the entire socion. The theory is developed enough now that . What lies beyond is more than Model B accounts for, content-wise.

    Ultimately, the world is a constant tussle between absolute change and absolute stasis, with most of us trying to meek out a middle ground despite biases toward either. It is the projection of a given IM element as in favor of change or stasis that leads to its exhaltation or suppression, relative to the dominant mood of the personality. The natural enmity between the signs (+,-) finds expression in the external conflict of change vs stasis. (itself carried out in the mind at every moment, as neuron colonies resist or accept changes to their constitution depending on the preferences of their constituents). However, this battle is four-fold.

    Consider the case of -Ti. +Ti asks that the world be restructured to suit itself in service to the background orientation of the person. (if the foreground is consciousness/developmentally focused, the background will be life/expansion focused, and vice versa) Change-oriented +Ti, in the case of a conscious-foreground orient LII (like myself), offers "you should think about yourself first" because life is a struggle to survive and it is this struggle which +Ti reckons with. The pressure NOT to consult +Ti comes from the existing (stasis-oriented) -Ti institutional scenario, which will react to the imposition of +Ti by the imposition of its own force. (+Se) The -Fi situation does not immediately come into it, because law may not be authentically just and -Fi deals in absolute justice. The institutional -Ti wants a +Ti that will only act in ways that are understood by the institution, particularly reverence for its given authority. Thus static-consciousness +Ti appears, which leads to rejection by the changing consciousness of -Ti. This is where in enmity arises.

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    Glad you have it all figured out. Good luck getting people to understand what you are talking about. If you can explain most human behavior, can you explain why most people don't buy into your theories?

    JRiddy
    —————King of Socionics—————

    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so

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    "If socionics has not profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet"



    Not sure I agree with you about Ti- being antagonistic to Ti+... I tend to get along well with ISTjs. Their "eureka" moments over trivialties (Positive + Process combined with ST) are hillarious.

    Ti+ = Ti in Resolutes
    Ti- = Ti in Reasonables

    I consider those labels redundant, but if they help you think I see no reason to interfere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    "If socionics has not profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet"



    Not sure I agree with you about Ti- being antagonistic to Ti+... I tend to get along well with ISTjs. Their "eureka" moments over trivialties (Positive + Process combined with ST) are hillarious.

    Ti+ = Ti in Resolutes
    Ti- = Ti in Reasonables

    I consider those labels redundant, but if they help you think I see no reason to interfere.
    -Ti is not externally antagonistic to +Ti, only internally. The IM functions themselves are antagonistic.

    Most people here do understand the theory; however, there is the problem of "what do we do with it?" To undertake any sort of social application of the theory is kind of akin to opening a pandora's box: we don't know what may come of it. Although, I increasingly have hope.

    Also, there is a slight proclivity to despair at understanding that which cannot ever be changed, no matter how tragic and deplorable it may seem. In the face of this theory, social idealism must die. Seriously, good-bye to it. You've got all this data and models to match it showing the human plight cannot be permanently amended. What does one make of such an irrevocably marred reality? Of a marred world? The strong social constuctionist is, in the face of such daunting contemplation, like to choose ignorance over understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    Glad you have it all figured out. Good luck getting people to understand what you are talking about. If you can explain most human behavior, can you explain why most people don't buy into your theories?
    That is very simple... they are stupid!

    Tcaud is close, we're all getting pretty close. Especially when you say we have perfected the understanding of form, and now are trying to understand "content" ... it goes back to the relativist vs. objectivist debate we were having in the nature of evil thread. Where relativist is the form, and objectivist is the content. Seeing both simultaneously is what is so difficult. How can you look at one without the other?
    It becomes a matter of... "when does this create this, or when is this reduced from this" ..
    Vaguely, I suspect that may be what you are trying to imply with your plus/minus signs.. but I really don't get it. The end is close though. I am almost to the point of explaining music w/ socionics. Music is where I try to orient myself.
    But yeah, everyone has a different orientation for this.. that is the reason no one understands Tcaud.
    An understanding which can be passed from one person to another will only come at the very end

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    Default Block Interpretation used under Supersocion Theory

    The EGO block deals with concrete data, concrete examples.

    The SUPEREGO block deals with generalizations of the concrete, and the abstract relationships suggested by concrete observations.

    The SUPER-ID block deals with vague information; it arises in response to the perception of as yet unknown or poorly understood content as a result of the formulizations by the SUPEREGO. Information in the SUPER-ID block is poorly understood but accepted as true in anticipation of an eventual formalization of its content.

    The ID block consists of beliefs we have about content due to our own innate psychological dispositions. It rises in response to anxiety aroused by awareness of SUPER-ID content, and a sense that true understanding of the information is lacking. It is that which we can know about the content whether or not we have experience with it, because we are programmed to see all objects as possessive of it.

    The purpose of the four blocks is to assemble awareness of observed object traits into coherent conceptualizations. This process begins with the EGO block, and continues into the other blocks in the order described by Model A. Similarly, concepts themselves have four fundamental qualities:
    - concrete
    - abstract
    - vaguity
    - belief

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    At least, this time, you're readable.

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    HAve you noticed how, whenever an ENTj speaks their mind, we as INTjs ALWAYS find some way to disagree with them? I'm pretty sure the ID block is linked to info about which a person has very firm opinions in light of which everything of the associated format is judged correct/incorrect.

    As a general rule: demarcation between correct/incorrect information == unvalued function usage. Valued info is considered benign regardless of source or justification.

    Also, people speaking from ID functions that are in YOUR ego block sound like they are "forcing" their views on their surroundings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    HAve you noticed how, whenever an ENTj speaks their mind, we as INTjs ALWAYS find some way to disagree with them? I'm pretty sure the ID block is linked to info about which a person has very firm opinions in light of which everything of the associated format is judged correct/incorrect.

    As a general rule: demarcation between correct/incorrect information == unvalued function usage. Valued info is considered benign regardless of source or justification.

    Also, people speaking from ID functions that are in YOUR ego block sound like they are "forcing" their views on their surroundings.
    That's a good observation. LIIs attempt to produce fact that discounts subjective logics. (+Ti) Facts that support said logic (+Ti) will not be entertained.

    But if a fact does not actually contradict a subjective logic, we aren't interested in it because to us fact is only of use to suppress threats to objectivity. (we look at it like, "if you created situation X, you would change the fact anyhow.") Every fact also has a tinge of inaccuracy due to the limitations to effective measurement.

    There is also the problem, though, that there are different kinds of fact. There are facts of culture that may be easily changed, and phemonological facts which are almost entirely beyond our capacity to do anything about. I pay more attention to the latter than the former, and admittedly discount the former when any serious point is being made thereabout. Why worry about something you can change, after all?

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    Default Supersocion Theory Defined

    Supersocion theory is the extension of socionics by means of applying the Heigelian method to the information metabolism concept. Heigel observed that new concepts are created by first distinguishing between two opposites -- a thesis and antithesis -- and then assuming the existence of a synthesis by them. Rather than stop at that single synthesis, supersocion theory goes a step farther by treating it as a thesis in its own right. Then the antithesis is identified, but not the synthesis, because the synthesis is original pair: one pairing of extremes creates its reflective pairing; or as relativity states, for every system k there exists a corresponding system k'. All of supersocion theory has developed in this way.

    Psychology scales very well to Heigelian theory because all psychological situations can be reduced to relationships between the person experiencing the situation (the subject) and the situation itself. (the object) Jung was the first to discover this, on basis of which he built his typology.

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    Yep, pretty much. It's the theory of relativity for psychology. Well... it goes a little further, hopefully it'll reach string status. If we're smart enough to push it that far. That is going to be very difficult

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    i don't think that's necessarily true. i mean, you could construct an abstract framework describing the possibilities for .. stringness. you may not reach the point where you can actually identify and manipulate it with reality

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    you guys make me cry at night.

    string status.....
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Ed Witten does have a type. Actually there is an interesting variety of types working in string theory, more than for say, QM or general relativity. (you can tell a person's type by the metaphors they use in their writing).

    One thing socionics will never be able to tell us, is what objects and fields actually do exist, and what concrete relationships actually exist. In this respect, socionics can only light the way, giving us hints as to what we may be missing from our observations. It will always remain to us to tie the pieces together coherently; but this is a good thing, because it means that fears of a SKYNET super-AI are unfounded: Megaman X is as good as we can ever expect to get, I think. (although the observations of a 4th transcendent function capable intellect will always remain beyond our living awareness, because the observations of such are not needed by life).

    It is probable that an advanced form of data mining could be made by modeling the IM elements. If you think about it, making robots that can think would be kind of pointless given that the robots would no doubt take more resources than are required by humans to maintain. But let's say you had some aspect processing software that could take a description of something you were thinking about, and tell you what aspects make it up. Then you could corroborate the aspects you are considering with recommended dual-aspects that have been inventoried by the software database. Those dual aspects might well point the way to the discovery one is looking to make by helping to filter the pool of hypothesized solutions.

    It may be possible to appraise string theory in the context of dual-type theory once 1) the dual-type aspects are understood, and 2) we understand how it is that the elements are tied together. I think though that string theory is really two co-dependent theories, however: one defined in terms of the consciousness axis (the inner truths that form the foundation of the concept) and another defined on the life axis. (the co-dependence of universes concept, gravity's strength distribution across dimensions, etc.. e.g., special cases of the concept in the external world).

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    The philosopher you seem to be refering to is called Hegel, not Heigel.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegel

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    The philosopher you seem to be refering to is called Hegel, not Heigel.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegel
    My mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    Jem is not pleased.
    Carla, I hereby appoint you to full-time duty as my mood messenger. Your wages will be any electronic presents that should happen my way.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Supersocion theory is the extension of socionics by means of applying the Heigelian method to the information metabolism concept. Heigel observed that new concepts are created by first distinguishing between two opposites -- a thesis and antithesis -- and then assuming the existence of a synthesis by them. Rather than stop at that single synthesis, supersocion theory goes a step farther by treating it as a thesis in its own right. Then the antithesis is identified, but not the synthesis, because the synthesis is original pair: one pairing of extremes creates its reflective pairing; or as relativity states, for every system k there exists a corresponding system k'. All of supersocion theory has developed in this way.
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post

    Psychology scales very well to Heigelian theory because all psychological situations can be reduced to relationships between the person experiencing the situation (the subject) and the situation itself. (the object) Jung was the first to discover this, on basis of which he built his typology.
    What is this SuperSocion Theory......has it got any form yet ?....i'm interested in where this is leading.
    ENTP:wink:ALPHA

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    Quote Originally Posted by kensi View Post

    What is this SuperSocion Theory......has it got any form yet ?....i'm interested in where this is leading.
    Because there are simply so many static dichotomies out there, their observation and study is ever changing as we seek the greater accuracy nuanced understanding offers us. Still, there are several encompassing postulates that we are confident in now:

    - the existence of an innate leadership/follower dichotomy
    - the existence of a socially creative vs socially non-creative dichotomy (the non-creative type being comparatively unconcerned with creating novel content that others find useful, an immersed in the activity of creating something for themselves; most people are like this as opposed to the former type)
    - the existence of an apparent triad set of types in the context of the socially creative type: bold, cautious, and consensus.
    - the existence of a second variety of processing type (a la socionics) which works alongside the classical socionics information metabolizing type and processes the energetic content whcih is the related by the elements. We call this concept the exertion type. (it's also called the slave type, but I'm starting to wonder if there really is a master/slave relationship there, or if it was just relativistic bias on our part. Labcoat observed the latter possibility some time ago).
    - the existence of supraordinate types that have biases towards interpretations of concepts, which may be the selectors of the function order proper/executive differentiator agents. (the force in the self which actually observes that one function is more effective than another).
    - the existence of a set of dynamics between conscious and subconscious aspects whose characters define the moral character of a person

    Supersocion theory ties all of these together into consistent frameworks of personality and situationally independent behavioral patterns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Because there are simply so many static dichotomies out there, their observation and study is ever changing as we seek the greater accuracy nuanced understanding offers us. Still, there are several encompassing postulates that we are confident in now:
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post

    - the existence of an innate leadership/follower dichotomy
    - the existence of a socially creative vs socially non-creative dichotomy (the non-creative type being comparatively unconcerned with creating novel content that others find useful, an immersed in the activity of creating something for themselves; most people are like this as opposed to the former type)
    - the existence of an apparent triad set of types in the context of the socially creative type: bold, cautious, and consensus.
    - the existence of a second variety of processing type (a la socionics) which works alongside the classical socionics information metabolizing type and processes the energetic content whcih is the related by the elements. We call this concept the exertion type. (it's also called the slave type, but I'm starting to wonder if there really is a master/slave relationship there, or if it was just relativistic bias on our part. Labcoat observed the latter possibility some time ago).
    - the existence of supraordinate types that have biases towards interpretations of concepts, which may be the selectors of the function order proper/executive differentiator agents. (the force in the self which actually observes that one function is more effective than another).
    - the existence of a set of dynamics between conscious and subconscious aspects whose characters define the moral character of a person

    Supersocion theory ties all of these together into consistent frameworks of personality and situationally independent behavioral patterns.
    Out of the 6....i seem to like 1 and 5 the most.......and have my own model in the make which i'm still trying to perfect whenever i get the time......

    so i take it that it is a model that is actively still in the works trying to factor in all properly distributed relvencies ??
    ENTP:wink:ALPHA

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    Quote Originally Posted by kensi View Post

    Out of the 6....i seem to like 1 and 5 the most.......and have my own model in the make which i'm still trying to perfect whenever i get the time......

    so i take it that it is a model that is actively still in the works trying to factor in all properly distributed relvencies ??
    It will always be in the works, probably, because as I said, it's the observation of dichotomous traits in personality. There are so many, many combinations... literally millions. On the other hand, a person knowledgeable in a set of many of them can link them together into a coherent picture, and calculate the nature of the personality that emerges from any given case.

    I see two major uses of this concept: 1) career assistance, 2) conflict resolution. I would say AI, but honestly I don't think AI will ever be genuinely popular outside of videogames because humans can do the same work just as well and by remote control. Science fiction reveals that the risks of cybernetic pride are too great even to tinker with socially.

    It's also possible that maybe, IM elements could be a factor of internet search. "I want Ti documents with a focus on Fe" -- man, that might be the last search setting I would ever use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    are you starting with these as assumptions? how did you derive them?
    There is not a moment in our waking consciousness (nor our dreaming subconscious, for that matter) when we are not using the IM elements. Think about that: every decision made by anyone in history has been in substance the interplay of information aspects in the mind of the decision maker. When you look at the world from that angle, such assumptions are easy to make. Study the aspects and the different ways they manifest, and their nuances will become apparent.

    But let me be absolutely clear about one thing in particular: +/- was vital. And, Jung was the inspiration for a lot of it.

    I'd also like to make clear that I've bought into hitta's fundamental thesis of the world being divided into positive and negative energies, which he has extended into the psyche.

    ...There's another element too which I don't really want to get into.... Let's just say I'm a fan of INFp literature.... INFj are always refining their understanding of motivation, which ENFjs refine into coherent character traits. INFps apply these traits toward the creation of stories. For me to validate my -Fi means I must reposition -Fe from the 5th function into the 3rd function, and replace it with +Fe. This allows +Fe to validate itself upon +Fi, and read into the +Fe sphere of information. My +Ti instincts pick up on this... not quite clear on the rest of it but the short of it, is that I get it from INFp-written storylines that are very rich in character development, allowing me to see traits in many different guises. Historical analogues are plentiful which makes correlation -- and experiential validation -- a cinch.

    If you really want the details... we could discuss it over chat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    It will always be in the works, probably, because as I said, it's the observation of dichotomous traits in personality. There are so many, many combinations... literally millions. On the other hand, a person knowledgeable in a set of many of them can link them together into a coherent picture, and calculate the nature of the personality that emerges from any given case.
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post

    I see two major uses of this concept: 1) career assistance, 2) conflict resolution. I would say AI, but honestly I don't think AI will ever be genuinely popular outside of videogames because humans can do the same work just as well and by remote control. Science fiction reveals that the risks of cybernetic pride are too great even to tinker with socially.

    It's also possible that maybe, IM elements could be a factor of internet search. "I want Ti documents with a focus on Fe" -- man, that might be the last search setting I would ever use.
    But do you not think that there exists a fundamental set of dichotomies ...but all other dichotomies are derivatives of the very fundamental set?

    Take the existing 4 at the moment.....can we not expand it to say 6 (much like the chinese 6 elements to give it some flavour)....and claim that a certain set of 6 is fundamental and there is nothing else that can systematically be added to those 6 because it in itself is a derivative of the 6 already given......that is...i don't like to deal with an infinite(millions) set altogether.....??

    also i noticed in your signature an INTj and ENFj alliance......what is that all about ?
    ENTP:wink:ALPHA

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    The INTj-ENFj bit is my dual-type. I relate behaviors and characterizations to each other in an INTj fashion, thus creating theories of group behavior toward individuals.

    The fundamental dichotomy is subject/object.

    The number six seems to me a reference to the transcendent function, as is the number three. The complementarity of the two, as opposed to their opposition, is the third. Complementary validation (anchoring +Ti's complementarity to -Ti upon +Te's complementarity to -Te) yields six. Now consider the other side of the complementarity wager -- the +Ti element (not the aspect) relented in its war against the -Ti element in exchange for the acceptance of the +Te element by the -Ti element as a member of the foreground function set (-Te, remember, had been in place against +Ti at -Ti's request, for the purpose of observing +Ti's irrelevance) -- which is the +Te elements's validation upon the +Ti element. That brings about another set of complementary observations (under a different context) for a total of twelve.

    I have no clue how the observation of the importance of these numbers ever came about. It's what I'd call a "wholeness" concept contrived by subconscious (obsessive dual-seeking) types.

    Take the existing 4 at the moment.....can we not expand it to say 6 (much like the chinese 6 elements to give it some flavour)
    There's your problem: the chinese 6 elements are a social invention, which means you're trying to phrase something completely ineffable into something artificial, even circumstantial. The two do not mix, unless the artificial is itself meant to represent unity of conscious intention with the necessity of social foundation upon that which cannot be changed, and even then, the exact nature of that relationship must be known. You cannot give something "flavor" and "puzzah" when it exists completely on its own terms and its own rules.

    Perhaps I should put it this way: some principles, no matter the situation, must be conserved.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 06-21-2008 at 02:46 PM.

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    I find it interesting what Jung has to say about Hegel:

    A philosophy like Hegel's is a self-revelation of the psychic background and, philosophically, a presumption. Psychologically it amounts to an invasion by the Unconscious. The peculiar, high-flown language Hegel uses bears out this view -- it is reminiscent of the megalomaniac language of schizophrenics, who use terrific, spellbinding words to reduce the transcendent to subjective form, to give banalities the charm of novelty, or pass off commonplaces as searching wisdom. So bombastic a terminology is a symptom of weakness, ineptitude, and lack of substance.

    – Carl G. Jung, On the Nature of the Psyche, 1928
    Looks like a standard description of an INTp from an INTj to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post

    There's your problem: the chinese 6 elements are a social invention, which means you're trying to phrase something completely ineffable into something artificial, even circumstantial. The two do not mix, unless the artificial is itself meant to represent unity of conscious intention with the necessity of social foundation upon that which cannot be changed, and even then, the exact nature of that relationship must be known. You cannot give something "flavor" and "puzzah" when it exists completely on its own terms and its own rules.

    I only meant that as a numerological suggestion and not as buying into some bogus social intention or convention and certainly not from a pragmatic point of view.
    All i meant was take the 4 dichotomies and extend them to say 6 if the metaphysics present themselves...as a suggestion .....rather than have a theory on seemingly endless dichotomy divisions.
    ENTP:wink:ALPHA

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    The INTj-ENFj bit is my dual-type. I relate behaviors and characterizations to each other in an INTj fashion, thus creating theories of group behavior toward individuals.
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post

    The fundamental dichotomy is subject/object.

    The number six seems to me a reference to the transcendent function, as is the number three. The complementarity of the two, as opposed to their opposition, is the third. Complementary validation (anchoring +Ti's complementarity to -Ti upon +Te's complementarity to -Te) yields six. Now consider the other side of the complementarity wager -- the +Ti element (not the aspect) relented in its war against the -Ti element in exchange for the acceptance of the +Te element by the -Ti element as a member of the foreground function set (-Te, remember, had been in place against +Ti at -Ti's request, for the purpose of observing +Ti's irrelevance) -- which is the +Te elements's validation upon the +Ti element. That brings about another set of complementary observations (under a different context) for a total of twelve.

    I have no clue how the observation of the importance of these numbers ever came about. It's what I'd call a "wholeness" concept contrived by subconscious (obsessive dual-seeking) types.
    .
    Subject-object....probably and obviously cause it repeats itself...either that or this, unlike some other choices would be my first impression.


    I am only very vaguely familiar with mainstream interpretations of the charge factor...mostly due to the fact of having to deal with odd explanations. Do you know of any real good articles which hit the nail on the head explaining the efficiency of the phenomena?
    ENTP:wink:ALPHA

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    The INTj-ENFj bit is my dual-type. I relate behaviors and characterizations to each other in an INTj fashion, thus creating theories of group behavior toward individuals.
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post


    Not exactly clear...



    if you don't mind........
    1. what is your identity__________
    2. what is your dual type__________
    3. what summarizes/validates this___________
    ENTP:wink:ALPHA

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