Do you think I am gamma?

[Ezra]

You could be Gamma. I do think xSI>LSE.

You think creative Se as opposed to demonstrative?

I agree that it's more likely, solely because I've seen no evidence to suggest that your Se is demonstrative.

However, I would be prepared to regard JW's Se as neither creative nor demonstrative, as I've not actually seen any evidence for it at all. Perhaps it's because it's in his Super-Ego or -Id.

Do you see any evidence of him having strong intuition (particularly Ne)?

No. What there is evidence of is his not being an ethical type. He constantly explains that his skills of emotional evaluation are poor, and there's no viable reason to doubt this or claim that it's an act. I truly don't think it's a realistic possibility that he's an NF, and I doubt that he's an SF. From this I see two possibilities. One: he's an NT, who likes to entertain the concept of his being another type, which would back up Ne-valuing, or at least Ne Ego or Super-Id (but since this isn't firm, don't hold me to my word). Two: he's genuinely an ST. Both I think are equally likely. I can't really evaluate beyond this. All I can go off is his word that he values Fi>Fe, and his writing style has consistently shown this, as well as his claims that he is Fi dual-seeking. Naturally, he then must value Te>Ti. As for the Se/Ni or Ne/Si question, I have absolutely no idea, and no evidence to support either claim.

[Garmonbozia]

is that floquet de neu the albino gorilla?

Yes, <3 snowflake for lyfe.

[Ezra]

Lately I very much doubt that he's a Fi-valuing type (and I agree that he's not an ethical type). I really doubt that he's LSE. LSI is my best guess.

Why 'lately'?

[Warlord]

He's not gamma :wink:

Looks like:

[anndelise]

Lately I very much doubt that he's a Fi-valuing type (and I agree that he's not an ethical type). I really doubt that he's LSE. LSI is my best guess.

Why 'lately'?

I've just noticed more things, particularly:

He never talks about his thoughts/feelings/motivations and actually seems to specifically avoid it (note that how even on this forum the Gammas and Deltas very spontaneously share these things -- contrast it with the Alphas and Betas who are not necessarily closed in this respect, but rather more concerned with other topics).

he did try to a few times in the past, but i think they went so deep that he was a bit uncomfy sharing them...whatever the reason, he'd wind up editing it or deleting it out. or do a nm thing.

a couple of times (once by myself and at least one other by another person), he responded pretty well to some Fi insight someone gave him about something he said about himself. At first he ...dunno the right term...waved it away.... but then within a few posts or in another thread he'd acknowledge that maybe there was something to it.... basically, at that point he was able to see how what was said to him might be fitting with another aspect of his life.

oh, and the most of the earlier times when he did try sharing his thoughts/feelings/motivations, he was often ridiculed in some way for it. basically, i think he learned not to share too much on this forum.

[Ezra]

Lately I very much doubt that he's a Fi-valuing type (and I agree that he's not an ethical type). I really doubt that he's LSE. LSI is my best guess.

Why 'lately'?

I've just noticed more things, particularly:

He never talks about his thoughts/feelings/motivations and actually seems to specifically avoid it (note that how even on this forum the Gammas and Deltas very spontaneously share these things -- contrast it with the Alphas and Betas who are not necessarily closed in this respect, but rather more concerned with other topics).

Gotcha.

[Ezra]

Lately I very much doubt that he's a Fi-valuing type (and I agree that he's not an ethical type). I really doubt that he's LSE. LSI is my best guess.

Why 'lately'?

I've just noticed more things, particularly:

He never talks about his thoughts/feelings/motivations and actually seems to specifically avoid it (note that how even on this forum the Gammas and Deltas very spontaneously share these things -- contrast it with the Alphas and Betas who are not necessarily closed in this respect, but rather more concerned with other topics).

he did try to a few times in the past, but i think they went so deep that he was a bit uncomfy sharing them...whatever the reason, he'd wind up editing it or deleting it out. or do a nm thing.

a couple of times (once by myself and at least one other by another person), he responded pretty well to some Fi insight someone gave him about something he said about himself. At first he ...dunno the right term...waved it away.... but then within a few posts or in another thread he'd acknowledge that maybe there was something to it.... basically, at that point he was able to see how what was said to him might be fitting with another aspect of his life.

oh, and the most of the earlier times when he did try sharing his thoughts/feelings/motivations, he was often ridiculed in some way for it. basically, i think he learned not to share too much on this forum.

Poor guy. I actually feel sorry for him.

[UDP]

Poor guy. I actually feel sorry for him.

Oh yeah, let me add that recently I've been going into Gamma because Courage/UDP XVLIII is asking if people think he's Gamma, and I like annoying him.

Your emotional sincerity is something that presents itself as untrustworthy.
It sounds like you are playing to the crowd.

[UDP]

Lately I very much doubt that he's a Fi-valuing type (and I agree that he's not an ethical type). I really doubt that he's LSE. LSI is my best guess.

Why 'lately'?

I've just noticed more things, particularly:

He never talks about his thoughts/feelings/motivations and actually seems to specifically avoid it (note that how even on this forum the Gammas and Deltas very spontaneously share these things -- contrast it with the Alphas and Betas who are not necessarily closed in this respect, but rather more concerned with other topics).

What does this have to do with Fe or Fi at all? Show me where you are getting this from, I've never seen it before, or I am unfamiliar with it.
I do not understand.

And, explain in yourself, why you are different. Show me instances where you have been different from myself, where you have freely expressed whatever it is you are referring to.

[UDP]

he did try to a few times in the past, but i think they went so deep that he was a bit uncomfy sharing them...whatever the reason, he'd wind up editing it or deleting it out. or do a nm thing.

a couple of times (once by myself and at least one other by another person), he responded pretty well to some Fi insight someone gave him about something he said about himself. At first he ...dunno the right term...waved it away.... but then within a few posts or in another thread he'd acknowledge that maybe there was something to it.... basically, at that point he was able to see how what was said to him might be fitting with another aspect of his life.

Explain - what were we talking about. I don't remember

oh, and the most of the earlier times when he did try sharing his thoughts/feelings/motivations, he was often ridiculed in some way for it. basically, i think he learned not to share too much on this forum.

How does that point to Fe > Fi?

[Garmonbozia]

He's not gamma :wink:

Looks like:

Nor are you. Go away.

[UDP]

he did try to a few times in the past, but i think they went so deep that he was a bit uncomfy sharing them...whatever the reason, he'd wind up editing it or deleting it out. or do a nm thing.

a couple of times (once by myself and at least one other by another person), he responded pretty well to some Fi insight someone gave him about something he said about himself. At first he ...dunno the right term...waved it away.... but then within a few posts or in another thread he'd acknowledge that maybe there was something to it.... basically, at that point he was able to see how what was said to him might be fitting with another aspect of his life.

I think that only adds to the point because he is not spontaneously receptive to such input.

You have to really struggle in order to get him to talk about such things as he will automatically revert to talking about totally external things -- if you ask him about himself he will become irritated and say something along the lines of "how many times do you want me to quote Stratiyevskaya?".

What input?
What are "such things"?
What does this have to do with type?

You sound like you know specifically what you are talking about, but show me what element of socionics you are referring to --- if you are so sure this is something type related.

oh, and the most of the earlier times when he did try sharing his thoughts/feelings/motivations, he was often ridiculed in some way for it. basically, i think he learned not to share too much on this forum.

That's a shame, but I don't think he spontaneously shared at any point anyway.

How can you make this determination?

[UDP]

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?p=290710#290710

On the issue of -valuing types "making an effort" in regards to emotional expression...

I think in reality, "making an effort" only makes things worse because your natural inclination is to move in the opposite direction. For example, if someone I considered a friend expresses that they feel I don't really appreciate them and what they're looking for is a more overt emotional reaction, my natural inclination is rather to even more carefully try to show my appreciation however I would normally (I will provide an example shortly) and if I don't follow my natural inclinations and rather just try to "look" more appreciative (for lack of a better word) then I feel like I am being a bad friend.... and also I feel unappreciated when these things are expected from me.

For example --

It doesn't matter how happy my friend acts when I say hi. I don't even care if they're happy at all as far as our friendship concerned (though I certainly wish for their happiness it doesn't affect things between us). I don't use this sort of thing as a barometer and I am honestly confused when people do judge our relationship by these things (obviously I understand it intellectually but I simply don't know what I can do to please them). What matters to me are things like -- will they be there for me when I'm suffering? Will they do their best to help me out in general? I guess it's -- what they will do for me that reassures me about our relationship. If they jump for joy when they see me -- great, but I won't give it much weight when estimating the strength of our bond. (Obviously people of all types and in all relationships will do things like this for each other, I'm just saying that this in particular is my barometer.) I have an LIE friend who is generally very subdued when I talk to him, but it doesn't matter because I know that if I need his help he will call me as soon as he can. I have an ILE friend who often acts very happy to talk to me and it's nice and everything but the reason I know he is my friend and not just someone I get along with is because I can cry on his shoulder, etc..

And so -- in showing my appreciation for someone, my inclination is to do things like pay careful attention to their emotional states and try to be supportive without really being reactive... or to present some research on something I know is concerning them... pay for their groceries if they're in financial trouble this week... learn their language... learn something about their interests so they can talk about them freely. Again -- and I loathe disclaimers but I worry that they are necessary in these discussions -- these are things that people of all types do, but these are the things I personally single out, and the things I automatically think I have to do more of if someone doubts my feelings towards them.

It is actually really hurtful to me for someone I really care about to say that it is not enough, I also need to smile or be more "passionate" or "warm" as some people have put it, especially as I do actually try to be warm and friendly to everyone though obviously only with very limited success... and the whole situation is extremely depressing, really. Ok, I'm not as overtly emotionally expressive as some people would like me to be, but can't they at least see that I have my own way of showing that I care?

I realise that the last paragraph could probably be thrown back at me because obviously I have my own criteria for determining the strength of a bond, but it's how I feel.

(I hope this helps? I feel like this is something that hasn't been presented yet though I may have just missed some posts accidentally)

Now, apply this to me and tell me why I am Fe>Fi?
I see what you wrote, I don't understand how you are drawing Fe>Fi from it.

[anndelise]

he did try to a few times in the past, but i think they went so deep that he was a bit uncomfy sharing them...whatever the reason, he'd wind up editing it or deleting it out. or do a nm thing.

a couple of times (once by myself and at least one other by another person), he responded pretty well to some Fi insight someone gave him about something he said about himself. At first he ...dunno the right term...waved it away.... but then within a few posts or in another thread he'd acknowledge that maybe there was something to it.... basically, at that point he was able to see how what was said to him might be fitting with another aspect of his life.

Explain - what were we talking about. I don't remember

honestly i don't remember the exact details, and it's been a few months so searching for it would be difficult.
but it had something to do with my contacting you in PM and asking if things were ok because you'd been more aggressive at the time...(in an unusual for you way). Later you commented in a thread somewhere after another unusual for you "outburst" that 'maybe ann was right'.

oh, and the most of the earlier times when he did try sharing his thoughts/feelings/motivations, he was often ridiculed in some way for it. basically, i think he learned not to share too much on this forum.

How does that point to Fe > Fi?

I didn't say it points to anything. I was merely commenting on Thunder's idea that this had to do with Fe>Fi.
I was trying to offer another possible explanation as to why you don't share your thoughts/feelings/motivations like you once did.

[UDP]

FWIW, I actually fully believe UDP now in that he is a sharer and exchanger of information rather than a person who prefers to set up and trust his own systems; I mean, I believe that he is a ExTj and not a Fi leading type, nor a Ti ego type. UDP, I understand why you quote the profiles now. Sorry about all of the arguments we've had over this.

If you are being sincere, I appreciate you saying that. (It is nice to know it is getting through to someone).

[Ezra]

Poor guy. I actually feel sorry for him.

Oh yeah, let me add that recently I've been going into Gamma because Courage/UDP XVLIII is asking if people think he's Gamma, and I like annoying him.

Your emotional sincerity is something that presents itself as untrustworthy.
It sounds like you are playing to the crowd.

Sorry. I should no that an emotional retard is no one to joke about with when it comes down to emotions. I'll excuse your lying (you will happily admit that you know I'm joking on matters which I am - showing that you are clearly capable of recognising a joke from a stinging piece of criticism (don't worry, you're not 100% robotic yet), and lay it out for you like I would for a child.

I don't like annoying you, I just find it amusing that you take yourself so seriously. I've never met anyone like it.

The second point I made that you quoted first (method?) was genuine. I actually sympathise with your unwillingness to demonstrate any kind of emotion on this forum because of your having been ridiculed.

So it's your decision to trust me, but that doesn't change what is and what isn't. I've laid out what I think, and what is the case. You choose how to interpret it.

Also, I don't think you're an LSI. My Mirror? No. Unless you're fucking about with us all, and aren't revealing your true feelings about matters, keeping them horrificially under wraps. Alternatively, you're actually Beta, and I'm Delta - hence, we're talking cross-purposes.

[Warlord]

Nor are you. Go away.

You spoke to me? That means that you love me

[Expat]

NOBODY CAN BE GAMMA BUT JOY, PETTER AND KELLY.

who said that?

Just by chance I happened to see this.

Gamma can't win either we are elitists who say that "nobody can be Gamma" or we are "recruiting for Gamma" so making everyone a Gamma.

It's not Beta -- it's Gamma that's the most hated quadra on this forum.

As to JTDW being a Gamma or not -- I don't know. It's gotten totally muddled in my mind.

[Logos]

NOBODY CAN BE GAMMA BUT JOY, PETTER AND KELLY.

who said that?

Just by chance I happened to see this.

Gamma can't win either we are elitists who say that "nobody can be Gamma" or we are "recruiting for Gamma" so making everyone a Gamma.

It's not Beta -- it's Gamma that's the most hated quadra on this forum.

As to JTDW being a Gamma or not -- I don't know. It's gotten totally muddled in my mind.

Get over yourself. Do you even read the crap that is written about Alpha?

[Expat]

Get over yourself. Do you even read the crap that is written about Alpha?

You mean the butt-wiping stuff? No.

Now, back to JTDW -- in the past, I thought I had seen signs if Gamma values, but he seemed more Te dual-seeking than dominant. That would make him ESI which I have suggested in the past. But Diana says she doesn't see Fi dominance, even though I thought he valued Fi, but now Salawa is making some points to the contrary.

So, again, I don't know.

[Logos]

Get over yourself. Do you even read the crap that is written about Alpha?

You mean the butt-wiping stuff? No.

Well it has been more than that on this forum. But when there are numerous posts about how is useless compared to , is more meaningful than the shallow and manipulative , how is inflexible stupidity to , and how is cute but also useless, yeah we can see how hated Gamma would be. How can Gamma be hated when there is a clear / > / preference on this board right now? So please stop the "Woe are us" act, because I think that just about all Quadras feel unappreciated in some way due to cross-Quadra misunderstandings.

[aestrivex]

Get over yourself. Do you even read the crap that is written about Alpha?

You mean the butt-wiping stuff? No.

Well it has been more than that on this forum. But when there are numerous posts about how is useless compared to , is more meaningful than the shallow and manipulative , how is inflexible stupidity to , and how is cute but also useless, yeah we can see how hated Gamma would be. How can Gamma be hated when there is a clear / > / preference on this board right now? So please stop the "Woe are us" act, because I think that just about all Quadras feel unappreciated in some way due to cross-Quadra misunderstandings.

i don't understand where you people come up with this that there's a "clear Te>Ti preference" on this board. i perceive it to be pretty balanced, and leaning in the opposite direction, if any.

[Logos]

i don't understand where you people come up with this that there's a "clear Te>Ti preference" on this board. i perceive it to be pretty balanced, and leaning in the opposite direction, if any.

This idea that the functional preference of the board is in the opposite direction does seem to be a fairly common one amongst the board.

[Expat]

Oh, and my first comment above, on "Gamma is the most hated quadra", wasn't really serious. Maybe I should just drop attempts at humor.

[aestrivex]

Oh, and my first comment above, on "Gamma is the most hated quadra", wasn't really serious. Maybe I should just drop attempts at humor.

that's not funny.

[UDP]

Now, back to JTDW -- in the past, I thought I had seen signs if Gamma values, but he seemed more Te dual-seeking than dominant. That would make him ESI which I have suggested in the past. But Diana says she doesn't see Fi dominance, even though I thought he valued Fi, but now Salawa is making some points to the contrary.

So, again, I don't know.

http://socionics.us/practice/mood.shtml

ESI - Guardian - concerned about proper behavior; stand their ground; hard to convince; conservative views and methods

Do I seem overtly concerned about properly behavior? Or conservative views and methods? I personally don't think so.
I don't like intoxication because I don't like loosing control - not because I think it is "wrong"

always busy with projects; practical and skeptical; action oriented; professional; active involvement

tough, serious, decisive, tough-minded, disciplined, controlling, firm, resolute; mistrustful; stand their ground

LSI just sounds too...... LSI. Too IJ, too resolute, too beta.
LSE sounds like me, the kind of life I would enjoy living.

[Joy]

LSE sounds like me, the kind of life I would enjoy living.

Are you referring to what's written on the page you linked to?

(I'm not particularly fond of those descriptions, personally.)

[UDP]

I am referring to what the page says, but also my collective understanding of LSE v LSI.


....... one reason I have problems with being Ne polr is that I have simply looked at so many different things, particularly religions and belief systems.

[Joy]

I don't think that's related to having a Ne PoLR. (If anything I would think it would point away from a Ni PoLR, based on the Ni PoLR types I've known and my understanding of ESxjs in general.)

[Blaze]

Oh, and my first comment above, on "Gamma is the most hated quadra", wasn't really serious. Maybe I should just drop attempts at humor.

expat, i find it hilarious when you talk about pubic hair, FWIW. :wink:

[Blaze]

UDP: i agree with most here that it's hard to figure out your type because you change types so much. ezra changed a lot too, but he more like bounced. you more like slowly slide.

here's my impression: T over F; (you don't really talk about feelings that much) J over P (you present your arguments in an organized way and substantiate them with data/theory); not sure about introversion vs extraversion from a dichotomous point of view but you lack the leadership of an entj. so from my point of view it's your creative function that's up for grabs. Se vs Ne.

your search for meaning and purpose might not be socionically related. why do you think you do this? does it have to be about an Info Element? do you ever think you distance yourself from others with this focus on philosophy? is it comfortably logical at the expense of human relationships? not tryin to put ya on the spot or anything, just asking.

you seem either delta or alpha. definitely not beta. if you were an istj you'd come across more like rocky and potatoe spirit and some others who are totally practical. you wouldn't seem so changeable. istj's are like immovable rocks. i don't see you as being all that practical. and i don't see Se. at least not here at the forum.

just because you would like to live the life of an estj doesn't mean that's who you are; it might be something you admire. estj is the lookalike of the esfj. remember you don't become your dual, you find your dual. if one can that is.

hell, i'd like to live the life of an estj sometime. they seem like they get along pretty well compared to some other types.

[UDP]

UDP: i agree with most here that it's hard to figure out your type because you change types so much. ezra changed a lot too, but he more like bounced. you more like slowly slide.

... ? I said I was LII, and I was wrong - and then I said I was LSE - I have never said I thought I was otherwise. There is no type changing going on - you might be mistaking "me" for what everyone else says about me, or something else. I have only "changed" my type 1 time.

here's my impression: T over F; (you don't really talk about feelings that much) J over P (you present your arguments in an organized way and substantiate them with data/theory); not sure about introversion vs extraversion from a dichotomous point of view but you lack the leadership of an entj. so from my point of view it's your creative function that's up for grabs. Se vs Ne.

What is "the leadership of an ENTj" ?

T>F and J>P? That is what I always said, so I don't disagree with you there at all.

your search for meaning and purpose might not be socionically related. why do you think you do this? does it have to be about an Info Element? do you ever think you distance yourself from others with this focus on philosophy? is it comfortably logical at the expense of human relationships? not tryin to put ya on the spot or anything, just asking.

.... Your question is way to vague to answer. What are you actually asking me?

you seem either delta or alpha. definitely not beta. if you were an istj you'd come across more like rocky and potatoe spirit and some others who are totally practical. you wouldn't seem so changeable. istj's are like immovable rocks. i don't see you as being all that practical. and i don't see Se. at least not here at the forum.

I agree that ISTjs are like immovable rocks, way more than I prefer to be. I agree I am not beta.
...I wouldn't say I am 'not practical', but I would definitely not compare myself to Rocky or pspirit, or any other ISTj I know.

My interaction with the forum has me come across in a strange way, if you ask me. If people knew me irl, it would clear a lot of things up.

just because you would like to live the life of an estj doesn't mean that's who you are; it might be something you admire. estj is the lookalike of the esfj. remember you don't become your dual, you find your dual. if one can that is.

hell, i'd like to live the life of an estj sometime. they seem like they get along pretty well compared to some other types.

Ok



Who are you, sunshine lovely? Are you new, or did you change your username?

Ultimately I would say that I am not really fully embracing life or being myself right now.
And, I spend too much time on the forum. I talk about myself so much here, but always in an indirect way... It actually takes away from its relevance, because I talk so much about "who I am", and in that process I believe the real me gets lost or distorted.
If I had to give an honest opinion, I would say I am an E8 who is in unhealthy stages, resembling an E5. Or possibly an E1 regressing into E4, though based on my recent enneagram studies, that is not so likely.
I turn my E8 need for interaction and asserting myself here, into the online world, instead of out there, in the offline world, where I really need to be asserting myself.

In some ways I feel like this is some puppet act.
Hm, perhaps I really ought to just distance myself from the forum for the time being. It does not seem to be helping anything.

[Creepy-bg]

[Blaze]

... ? I said I was LII, and I was wrong - and then I said I was LSE - I have never said I thought I was otherwise. There is no type changing going on - you might be mistaking "me" for what everyone else says about me, or something else. I have only "changed" my type 1 time.

ah yes perhaps you are right you have only changed once, but before you were an LII you questioned what type you were quite a bit. and now you are considering another change to entj so that equals almost 3 times in my mind.

What is "the leadership of an ENTj" ?

entj's lead with Te as do estj's, albeit to a lesser degree. people are strongly persuaded by entj; they have a big influence and keep their eyes on the horizon for the entire group. they set the mission and vision. i don't see this behavior from you, but i could be wrong perhaps you are different IRL, if so then you are into the forum for personal growth not a vision.

T>F and J>P? That is what I always said, so I don't disagree with you there at all.

sweet. this leaves us then with either leading Ti or leading Te, which only leaves a couple of types. you are eliminating istj; i am eliminating entj which leaves us with intj or estj, but really, you do not come across as an estj.

.... Your question is way to vague to answer. What are you actually asking me?

i am simply asking you to consider whether your philosophical search for understanding could be related to something other than socionics. what alternative explanations can you think of for your search? because this search is what seems to confound accurate type diagnosis. if it is not type related, then it can be eliminated from the equation.

My interaction with the forum has me come across in a strange way, if you ask me. If people knew me irl, it would clear a lot of things up.

how do you think you are different IRL?

Who are you, sunshine lovely? Are you new, or did you change your username?

i have changed my user name to sunshine L-I-V-E-L-Y as in alive with liveliness or some thing like that lol.

Ultimately I would say that I am not really fully embracing life or being myself right now.
And, I spend too much time on the forum. I talk about myself so much here, but always in an indirect way... It actually takes away from its relevance, because I talk so much about "who I am", and in that process I believe the real me gets lost or distorted.

maybe a good time to simply interact here then. why not just jump into the fray? i've seen you do this before. the more you interact naturally, the more your type will be revealed to yourself and others.

If I had to give an honest opinion, I would say I am an E8 who is in unhealthy stages, resembling an E5. Or possibly an E1 regressing into E4, though based on my recent enneagram studies, that is not so likely.
I turn my E8 need for interaction and asserting myself here, into the online world, instead of out there, in the offline world, where I really need to be asserting myself.

if you're an eight then i ain't straight dude. just loosen up. :wink:

[UDP]

... ? I said I was LII, and I was wrong - and then I said I was LSE - I have never said I thought I was otherwise. There is no type changing going on - you might be mistaking "me" for what everyone else says about me, or something else. I have only "changed" my type 1 time.

ah yes perhaps you are right you have only changed once, but before you were an LII you questioned what type you were quite a bit. and now you are considering another change to entj so that equals almost 3 times in my mind.

Who said I was considering another change? Particularly a change to LIE?
Things like that make me wonder how much people actually understand "me". I am not at all "seriously considering LIE" - I don't know where you got that from. I started my last type thread because aut0 questioned me about being ESI, that's all. It seems like people are muddled enough to not say anything substantial really.

Carla, however, believes I am EXTj. I would call her to the witness stand - perhaps she can explain to you about why I am >
Shall I post her pm? I asked her for permission to use it, though I am not sure if I posted it yet.

What is "the leadership of an ENTj" ?

entj's lead with Te as do estj's, albeit to a lesser degree. people are strongly persuaded by entj; they have a big influence and keep their eyes on the horizon for the entire group. they set the mission and vision. i don't see this behavior from you, but i could be wrong perhaps you are different IRL, if so then you are into the forum for personal growth not a vision.

I am absolutely not here for a vision, and yeah, personal growth more so.
The ENTjs here do not strike me as here for "a vision", fwiw. Expat, maybe, who has said he wants to make socionics more understandable, or, promote its accuracy or something like that, but that's about it.

T>F and J>P? That is what I always said, so I don't disagree with you there at all.

sweet. this leaves us then with either leading Ti or leading Te, which only leaves a couple of types. you are eliminating istj; i am eliminating entj which leaves us with intj or estj, but really, you do not come across as an estj.

I can't really see how people can say I come across like anything.
I have heard yes and no for just about everyone of these types:

INTj, ISTj, ENTj, ISFj, ESTj, INFj, to name a few...

Why do you see me as your mirror? How am I similar to other LIIs here?

.... Your question is way to vague to answer. What are you actually asking me?

i am simply asking you to consider whether your philosophical search for understanding could be related to something other than socionics. what alternative explanations can you think of for your search? because this search is what seems to confound accurate type diagnosis. if it is not type related, then it can be eliminated from the equation.

It confounds accurate type diagnosis? I don't really understand what you are getting at.
You can consider it however you like.

My interaction with the forum has me come across in a strange way, if you ask me. If people knew me irl, it would clear a lot of things up.

how do you think you are different IRL?

You don't see how I interact in meetings, or tell the room to shut up when my sociology teacher wants to start class but is not confident enough about getting everyone's attention, how I am with my friends, how I am as president of hall council, what I am like in the leadership development program..... and so on and so forth.

I can see how I come across here as softer, and at the same time, people are convinced I am Se creative. So, when people say I am any type, you have to deal with not just what I say, but also what other people say. I'd like to see people refute each other, instead of just trying to tell me their opinion to me.

I would say I use this forum more as personal growth, than interaction. But then again - consider how much attention I am generally surrounded by here... I'll bring this up later.

Who are you, sunshine lovely? Are you new, or did you change your username?

i have changed my user name to sunshine L-I-V-E-L-Y as in alive with liveliness or some thing like that lol.

Ultimately I would say that I am not really fully embracing life or being myself right now.
And, I spend too much time on the forum. I talk about myself so much here, but always in an indirect way... It actually takes away from its relevance, because I talk so much about "who I am", and in that process I believe the real me gets lost or distorted.

maybe a good time to simply interact here then. why not just jump into the fray? i've seen you do this before. the more you interact naturally, the more your type will be revealed to yourself and others.

If I had to give an honest opinion, I would say I am an E8 who is in unhealthy stages, resembling an E5. Or possibly an E1 regressing into E4, though based on my recent enneagram studies, that is not so likely.
I turn my E8 need for interaction and asserting myself here, into the online world, instead of out there, in the offline world, where I really need to be asserting myself.

if you're an eight then i ain't straight dude. just loosen up. :wink:

What makes you so certain? You and Gilly both just laugh whenever I say things like that, and yet he thought I was LIE at one point, and now LSI, despite saying I don't seem like I would dominate anything. You don't know that in another forum, predominantly about MBTI, I was the reason they had to get

Loosen up?

Logical subtype is efficient, dry in the contact, it is correct, has a strict form, it is unapproachable. It is not inclined to the jokes, it is serious, restrained.

How many LIIs do you know do you really have to tell to loosen up? (Maybe you just don't get that I mihgt not value Fe)

Do you have to tell Carla to loosen up? I suppose you could tell Tcau to loosen up, but I hope you don't really compare me to him. Machintruc, Ms. K, SubT, Logos, hotel... they all seem quite merry and easy going, Fe receptive. And yet I am LII too?

Or do you really see me as reserved as MysticSonic (is he a Ti LII or something)? I'm not like that at all. Way too quiet-like.
And what about Heath? You would say Heath and I are similar?

You seem to say I am LII, but who are you really going to compare me to? We went down that road a long time ago...

i am simply asking you to consider whether your philosophical search for understanding could be related to something other than socionics. what alternative explanations can you think of for your search? because this search is what seems to confound accurate type diagnosis. if it is not type related, then it can be eliminated from the equation.

You make it sound like, because I express myself as searching or looking for things - this is some sort of a weakness. I think it is to easy to write this off as some subtle intuitive flimsiness from an uninformed outside perspective.

And Diana said I might come across as too pushy for LSE, and that is why LSI makes better sense. So it's like, you all don't have your stories straight. Each person sees different pieces to the puzzle, and doesn't want to put them together.


Also.... more about 8s in a bit

[UDP]

Here it is...

OK, here's my complete explanation ...

So, I haven't thought it feasible for you to be a Ti ego type for awhile now. It hit me around the time when we were having one of our very first arguments about your type in this thread: UDP. It was around then that I realized that we actually approached things in entirely different ways, from entirely different angles. You didn't seem to have the emphasis on asking questions and theorizing and building systems (or whatever you want to call it) in your head and then reasoning from these internal structures like I did. Your emphasis/approach was foreign to me* ... as opposed to other Ti leading forum members like Logos and thehotelambush, and even machintruc, who, even though I may not always agree or disagree with, I DO always understand where their thinking/approach is coming about from (as you would with an identical). Similarly, Potatospirit's emphasis isn't foreign to me, (even though he may have Se creative rather than Ne creative); that's why I don't believe that you are an LSI like some other forum members do.

So that set off my curiosity about your type ... hence me trying to puzzle out Fi versus Te leading types to try to determine which of those you really were. Regarding that paragraph I wrote down about Te versus Ti in the last pm I sent you --- the thing is, that's why it's been impossible for me to be able to just "take your word for it" on your type. I've had to believe my typing of you to be correct from the knowledge within myself. Up until this point, I simply haven't known enough about Te versus Fi leading types; I've had to build a model of how Fi leadings versus Te leadings behave, and then draw conclusions from that.

Then, in our last argument, Diana said something very important. About how similar Ti and Fi leading types are similar in that they BOTH construct their own systems and so Fi types don't have any need for type profiles either. I realized how similar Diana and Minde and all of the Fi dominants "style" was to my own, the only difference being that they had an "ethical" motivation behind their writing and I had more of a "logical" motivation. I thought of Joy, and how she quotes profiles and descriptions quite often. And then I realized that Te types really do like to share and exchange information in that way. So my realization of you being a Te type was "complete" if you like.

The only thing left to determine then was whether I thought you were an ESTj or an ENTj. My own personal opinion on that is ... that your intuition is bloody awful!!!
(Please correct me if you disagree!!! )
All I can tell you about my reasoning here is that there have been a number of times where I've thought: "Why can't UDP see that? Why can UDP not tell what that person is really trying to say? Why can UDP not see where this thread will lead?"
In this regard, you remind me of my ESTj friends ... their intuition is bad also.
And so, ESTj makes perfect sense in my mind now (with the next possibility being ISTp, which makes sense I think, since it would be your mirror type).
(PS: Please don't take offence at that last paragraph!!!)

So that's about it. What do you think?


* Eg: You relied on the type profiles a lot as opposed to trying to build up your own type "profiles" by reasoning about what you knew regarding the information elements/functions/etc.

[Minde]

i am simply asking you to consider whether your philosophical search for understanding could be related to something other than socionics. what alternative explanations can you think of for your search? because this search is what seems to confound accurate type diagnosis. if it is not type related, then it can be eliminated from the equation.

You make it sound like, because I express myself as searching or looking for things - this is some sort of a weakness. I think it is to easy to write this off as some subtle intuitive flimsiness from an uninformed outside perspective.

No, she's observing pretty much what I said to you earlier.

[UDP]

Ok. Then I suppose it should be disregarded. I am not sure what the fuss it about.


PS:

The most ironic thing about "you're not 8! You don't dominate anything lol", is that none of you know of my past, particularly on another forum. I was a terror that brought about a moderator to an otherwise un-moderated forum. One of the many nicknames I got was "Universal Dictator Prince", and quite a few people hated me. Perhaps they still do.

how times have changed. I have never mentioned that though, I don't believe. Or it does not seem to be common knowledge - again, for a reason.
Rockclimber was a witness....

I've become rather civilized since then - I wonder if she would care to comment on any of this.

[Minde]

Ok. Then I suppose it should be disregarded. I am not sure what the fuss it about.

It seems to come from you. You overreacted. There was and is no attack.

And I don't think you understand her even still.

[UDP]

Then explain it.

Saying "you don't understand" is pointless unless you explain something.