Understanding Fi of EIIs-INFjs and the origins of their empathy

[Mona]

In response to UDP's question, personally I think that INFjs aren't sure how to show things they take for granted, and so they don't... i.e.: I don't know what others take as a sense of friendship. For me, if someone's not angry at me, I'm pleased with our relationship. I don't know if they are, though. For me, it means a lot to know that I'm appreciated for who I am, and not who I should be. The greatest relationship I can have with anyone - even dating, etc - is not physical (I don't consciously expect physical things, and it mortifies me when I realize I do)... it's a mutual understanding where you don't even have to express what you feel in order for it to be known.

I'm most vulnerable in emotional situations where my feelings are out on the table waiting to be either affirmed or invalidated.

It seems sometimes INFjs I know just.....expect.... things?

In my case, I'm often too afraid that my choices will be considered as either wrong or inappropriate. I rely on others' choices, all while holding my own personal convictions. For me, some things are passive.

Is this because it is so hard for INFjs to really express things? How do you really deal with things like this? What are you looking for? And what can people do - how can they act towards you - to make things go as smoothly and efficiently as possible? What do you need to be able to properly express your feelings towards other people?

See, I know what I mean, but it's hard to show other people that same thing without potentially hurting their feelings, or making them suspicious of some form.

In order to properly express my feelings, I need to know that a) either what I say direly needs to be said (if I'm angry, or someone is in danger, etc), or b) I am accepted no matter what mistakes I may make.

There is a phrase that hits my core like none other, and I have a hunch that you might agree. When I hear someone say to me, "I love you and I like you just the way you are." mm. ....... Whenever I hear a voice that I know accepts me for who I am, it hits a very tender spot in me. So, I relate to what you said very much, especially in moments like that. Be it from Christ or Mr. Rogers or a devoted friend. It is disarming and surprising.

I completely agree... there's that element of being completely accepted that ... cannot be duplicated or changed in any way.

It has not happened much in my life, but I can distinctly remember these moments which caused me to address it by "forcing" myself to be more mindful of my surroundings. It became a reactionary response to "guard" myself against it happening again because I didn't want people to have to tell me something that I already felt so strongly about. I never felt like I had the chance to say "I'm sorry, it was an honest mistake." because it was always taken as "Well, you SHOULD have been paying attention and it shouldn't have happened!"

I do that all the time; I work in a camp kitchen and the activity is fairly bustling. Because of this, I have to force myself to "ground" myself, otherwise my mind will take an entirely different direction.

Indeed, I don't remember a day where I haven't felt guilt in some fashion, whether the guilt is justified or not.

Exactly. For example, my father has a torn rotator cuff, which causes him a good deal of pain. Once, forgetting this, I was demonstrating how one can distribute force in his or her favour; I asked him to push on my shoulders and I would push up on his elbows, thus direction the force upwards. He wasn't sure what I was going to do, but pushed on my shoulders anyway. Anyway, he then clutched his shoulder and looked pained...

For me, that was the most mortifying thing I'd done. I retreated, apologizing profusely, but I eventually hid and cried. No one noticed I had cried, though, and I was overwhelmed with an immense sense of guilt both that I had hurt my father, and that I took it so personally.

I must say that I am quite pleased that you are so interested enough in what I have to say. You didn't reject me, nor did you necessarily agree with me, you just take what I say and consider it deeply, and that's really what I want the most in discussions like this. It makes me want to tell you even more about how I deal with things (in future posts; I'll stop for now to give me time to think about what I should say next).

See, this is something I might say if I was comfortable in what I was saying, but even now I don't feel quite comfortable. I'm fairly new. I'm a lurker. And yet because UDP asks these questions, and there's a congenial atmosphere, so I contribute. Even so, in public forums it seems I put my feelings/ideas forth on a table and have to force myself to step away and not take it personally if people dissect.

[Minde]

There's something about this thread... something... off. I can't put my finger on it, though.




I would like to say, though, that I don't think a need for acceptance is unique to INFjs. I tend to think that everyone has a deep need for acceptance and love. Perhaps it's just one of my "isn't everybody like this" things...

[Lobo]

There's something about this thread... something... off. I can't put my finger on it, though.




I would like to say, though, that I don't think a need for acceptance is unique to INFjs. I tend to think that everyone has a deep need for acceptance and love. Perhaps it's just one of my "isn't everybody like this" things...

Well... If by "off" you mean that you can't relate completely with this thread, then I am with you. Maybe, it's the subtype thing... I can understand everything you guys are saying though, but it's not entirely my personal situation.

However, I can offer some general suggestions to all you guys that might help:

1) Don't think so much, it's a bad habit. There are some things that you might not be able to understand "ever" in your life, no matter how long or hard you think. Some things you need to let go, it's not worth it.

2) There are people that want to make you feel guilty for things (don't know why), and you have to put them in their place... There are few things that get me as angry as people trying to make me feel guilty. In the disabled person situation, I would have definitely said that "I hadn't seen him going in and I don't really care if you believe me or not, and I don't need to justify myself to you." Probably staring at him/her while saying it, making the point across. Guilt can be very pointless at times. You deserve to make mistakes, and it's not like you are going to do it again on purpose.

3) There are people that need others to be confident in their ideals and feelings, and I can assure you that there are probably so many people that if you express (not impose) openly your ideas and feelings, be it contraversial or not, they would actually be grateful for it and you would be special to them. It's like your mind is going to complete waste, and you just can't let that happen...

Best of luck to you guys.

[UDP]

See, this is something I might say if I was comfortable in what I was saying, but even now I don't feel quite comfortable. I'm fairly new. I'm a lurker. And yet because UDP asks these questions, and there's a congenial atmosphere, so I contribute. Even so, in public forums it seems I put my feelings/ideas forth on a table and have to force myself to step away and not take it personally if people dissect.

I suppose I should thank everyone again for contributing... I really didn't expect this sort of outcome when it started, but, it's nice to sort of hear this side of things.

[BlackTigress]

There is this one topic (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=15897) on the INTP Central forums where this guy wanted to get closer with an INFJ girl, but he didn't know how to approach the situation. Many INFJs gave very good advice there, and several non-INFJs gave their experience (which proved to be fairly accurate) with dealing with INFJs.

I do know that you probably didn't mean for this topic to necessarily focus on romantic relationships with INFJs (the INTP topic leans towards that), but most of the things in that topic work just as well for friends as they do for girlfriends/boyfriends. Note: the topic is about MBTI INFJ, not socionics INFJ. I still found it quite worth reading though; it put a lot of what I think and feel into words.

[Minde]

Well... If by "off" you mean that you can't relate completely with this thread, then I am with you. Maybe, it's the subtype thing... I can understand everything you guys are saying though, but it's not entirely my personal situation.

That possibly has something to do with it... Or, it could be somewhat of the reverse, that there's almost too much commonality for all of this to be limited to one type.

I should clarify that I do know my sense of... off-ness... has nothing to do with what everybody's said as it expresses yourself. What you think and feel about what goes on inside you is perfectly valid and there's nothing off about that.

Although, I would suggest that some of you look a little further into the differences between MBTI and socionics.

[Christy B]

[QUOTE=Sereno;285889]Well... If by "off" you mean that you can't relate completely with this thread, then I am with you. Maybe, it's the subtype thing... I can understand everything you guys are saying though, but it's not entirely my personal situation.

QUOTE]
I agree with this. I also understand what people are saying and kind of relate although not completely. Like you have said, maybe this is an Fe Ne subtype difference.

Tereg??? Do you know your subtype??? You are very good at describing your experiences and because of this I can see clearly how we are similar but also where we differ. Maybe this is subtype difference. . .

[schrödinger's cat]

...I was certain I was an ENFp, but you guys have been portraying these concepts I had in my mind so well... Is it possible to be an ENFp, but to have learned to be an INFj in social situations? ... I relate to ENFp so well except for in social areas.

...with certain people, I can talk to them for days on end. But I have the difficulties with 'people I'm not comfortable with'.... I can often feel how they will respond to what I say, and I am selective with the topics I mention....

I almost feel like I have to grow out of these tendencies, too. Like they're bothersome, and 'not me,' and I'll finally be liberated when I do. I've done a ridiculous amount of analyzing to find the 'core problems' around my feelings and actions, and a lot of times once I figure it out the problem disappears.

I think my mind is stuck between ENFp and INFj in social matters. Ummm, is this possible?

EDIT: I may have 'learned' to be an introvert due to my social anxiety when I was younger. Also, both of my parents are shy. I must be an extrovert, because I hate being alone, doing activities alone, and when other people tell me they need to be alone I can't understand why.

This brings something up. Can you learn to be another type?

I'll try answer that and tie it to the subject of this thread as well.

My guess is that it depends on how comfortable we're feeling. Us ENFps seem to be very cautious and observant around people we (a) don't know well or (b) don't feel comfortable with. You don't go "wheee!!" and jump into the pool head first, so to speak. You rather dip your foot in first. Then you get in and hold on to the ladder. And so on.

If someone gives you the impression that they'll disapprove of part of you, you'll stay in that cautious/uncomfortable stage. This is where ENFps can seem withdrawn, matter-of-fact, quiet, shy, etc. Not "the life of the party" at all.

If you're with people who give you the impression that they like you, find you entertaining, and like being around you, you'll open up. Sometimes, with ENFps, "opening up" can be quite spectacular. ("Silly switch", "inner wild child", you've probably read about all that.)

That's where social anxiety can really, really screw you up, because it means you never reach the stage where you're feeling comfortable, confident and at ease with someone. This, at least, was my own experience.

INFjs probably share some of that experience. But when they've opened up and are feeling comfy, it's all a little more serene, gentle, relaxed, unhurried than with ENFps. Less "WHEEEE!!" altogether. And here's where I'm getting back on the topic of this thread: my guess is that INFjs are usually like this, whatever mood or emotion they're expressing. Less "WHEE!!" or "this is CRAP!!" than ENFps. The exception would be when they're making a value judgment. But even then I wouldn't expect them to shout, frown, gesticulate wildly. There'll be a very controlled, polite person saying: "...well, it's just not my thing." BUT. They'll be unshiftable. Un-arguable-with. Because they KNOW that something is wrong. It's not something they "think", or "have an opinion about"; they KNOW. That doesn't mean they won't research the subject and try to base their judgment on facts. What I mean is, once the verdict is reached, then that's it. And when it comes to people's behaviour, they can make definite, clear-cut opinions and value judgments. We do that as well, but with us, there's less of this quiet certainty. (As I said: this is merely my guess, based on limited experiences. Perhaps all INFjs I know are central-European-ishly stubborn and thus untypical.)

An INFj friend has recently split up with her boyfriend. What he did was, he'd pressure her to "show emotions". How did he do that? His tactic was to try and make her mad at him. He wanted her to rant, storm, yell, throw crockery. He criticized her for "not being direct enough". When he didn't get the expected storm, he'd tell her: "Are you punishing me by being silent? Well, I can do that too!", and he'd sulk for hours. It was a total waste of her good qualities.

[UDP]

An INFj friend has recently split up with her boyfriend. What he did was, he'd pressure her to "show emotions". How did he do that? His tactic was to try and make her mad at him. He wanted her to rant, storm, yell, throw crockery. He criticized her for "not being direct enough". When he didn't get the expected storm, he'd tell her: "Are you punishing me by being silent? Well, I can do that too!", and he'd sulk for hours. It was a total waste of her good qualities.

What type was her boyfriend? valuing apparently. Sounds like one quadra more than the other.

[ChristiRB]

An INFj friend has recently split up with her boyfriend. What he did was, he'd pressure her to "show emotions". How did he do that? His tactic was to try and make her mad at him. He wanted her to rant, storm, yell, throw crockery. He criticized her for "not being direct enough". When he didn't get the expected storm, he'd tell her: "Are you punishing me by being silent? Well, I can do that too!", and he'd sulk for hours. It was a total waste of her good qualities.

Wow I have actually experienced this!! This one guy (ENFP) and I tried to date a few months ago. He was very dramatic about things and he was always testing me to see if I really liked him or not. I did like him very much and we had a lot of fun together, but I wasn't all lovey-dovey, throwing myself at him and calling him all of the time. (I am very low key until I get serious about someone.) Anyway, he was always turning everything into an argument to see how I really felt about him. It was so bizarre. Pretty soon I would hit my breaking point and finally tell him how upset he was making me, and then like clockwork he would exclaim, "So you DO care! Awww!"

After a couple of weeks of it I had had enough of it and wrote him off as immature and not worth it.

[UDP]

Do you mean ENFP in terms of MBTI?

Sounds like EIE (aka ENFj)

He was very dramatic about things and he was always testing me to see if I really liked him or not.

[ChristiRB]

Do you mean ENFP in terms of MBTI?

Sounds like EIE (aka ENFj)

Not sure. I don't really understand the whole Socionics-MBTI correlation. He is ENF for sure.

[Christy B]

An INFj friend has recently split up with her boyfriend. What he did was, he'd pressure her to "show emotions". How did he do that? His tactic was to try and make her mad at him. He wanted her to rant, storm, yell, throw crockery. He criticized her for "not being direct enough". When he didn't get the expected storm, he'd tell her: "Are you punishing me by being silent? Well, I can do that too!", and he'd sulk for hours. It was a total waste of her good qualities.

My ISTP ex-boyfriend used to do this to me. It would just make me quieter and clamer. He wanted me to freak out, but when people start freaking out emotionally I go the other direction, and become completely silent and still. He actually got really violent with me and threatened me to see if I would react, but I didn't. We broke up when it started getting bad.

Also, my Beta parents have never understood why I get quiet, and often push me by getting louder or angry in order to get to what is "going on" inside me.

[aut0]

Great list of "what not to do with INFj women".

[tereg]

Tereg??? Do you know your subtype??? You are very good at describing your experiences and because of this I can see clearly how we are similar but also where we differ. Maybe this is subtype difference. . .

Well, I believe that my subtype is Fi. I feel about 80% sure of that. There are some things that I've come across about Ne subtypes that make me pause and consider. But, at the moment, I think that my subtype is Fi.

[Christy B]

Well, I believe that my subtype is Fi. I feel about 80% sure of that. There are some things that I've come across about Ne subtypes that make me pause and consider. But, at the moment, I think that my subtype is Fi.

Thanks!

[ChristiRB]

May I ask how one would discover what their subtype is? Thanks!

[UDP]

Here are some descriptions:

sexually:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ead.php?t=7441

meged's descriptions:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ead.php?t=7322

Check the Articles section for other things.

[Ms. Kensington]

I would say that it's a good thing! Besides, I'm not sure that your post is all so different, more like the other side of the coin. On the one hand, you're seeking to understand. On the other, the rest of us were seeking to be understood.



+1 Lewis sounds like a very smart person!

you remind me of my best friend. you find nice things to say.

[munenori2]

you remind me of my best friend. you find nice things to say.

Thanks. It seems so do you!

[Sponyonye]

lol... maybe, SPUN-YUN-YEH.

I pronounce it SPAWN-YAWN-YEE. Except the last syllable ends up sounding like YEEH, giving me a little accent. That's the only reason I chose that as my name, and that I can not for the life of me think of a name that would describe me in a way I like. I need it to be all-encompassing or something.

My guess is that it depends on how comfortable we're feeling. Us ENFps seem to be very cautious and observant around people we (a) don't know well or (b) don't feel comfortable with. You don't go "wheee!!" and jump into the pool head first, so to speak. You rather dip your foot in first. Then you get in and hold on to the ladder. And so on.

If someone gives you the impression that they'll disapprove of part of you, you'll stay in that cautious/uncomfortable stage. This is where ENFps can seem withdrawn, matter-of-fact, quiet, shy, etc. Not "the life of the party" at all.

If you're with people who give you the impression that they like you, find you entertaining, and like being around you, you'll open up. Sometimes, with ENFps, "opening up" can be quite spectacular. ("Silly switch", "inner wild child", you've probably read about all that.)

That's where social anxiety can really, really screw you up, because it means you never reach the stage where you're feeling comfortable, confident and at ease with someone. This, at least, was my own experience.

You've got it, methinks. My trouble is with finding environments where I can 'jump into the pool.' I feel completely useless otherwise. My dream is to discover a way where I can be like that around most people. My two best friends in high school were: INFj and ENTp, and I was comfortable with them right away. So, it seems the only people I feel comfortable with are fellow Ne-dominants. How will I meet a duel?!

The only solution I can come up with is hypnosis: "Everyone likes you, everyone likes you." Hmm, perhaps.

It looks as if you've dealt with the same thing, so how did you overcome the anxiety? If you feel like lavishing me with advice.

INFjs probably share some of that experience. But when they've opened up and are feeling comfy, it's all a little more serene, gentle, relaxed, unhurried than with ENFps. Less "WHEEEE!!" altogether. And here's where I'm getting back on the topic of this thread: my guess is that INFjs are usually like this, whatever mood or emotion they're expressing. Less "WHEE!!" or "this is CRAP!!" than ENFps. The exception would be when they're making a value judgment. But even then I wouldn't expect them to shout, frown, gesticulate wildly. There'll be a very controlled, polite person saying: "...well, it's just not my thing." BUT. They'll be unshiftable. Un-arguable-with. Because they KNOW that something is wrong. It's not something they "think", or "have an opinion about"; they KNOW. That doesn't mean they won't research the subject and try to base their judgment on facts. What I mean is, once the verdict is reached, then that's it. And when it comes to people's behaviour, they can make definite, clear-cut opinions and value judgments. We do that as well, but with us, there's less of this quiet certainty. (As I said: this is merely my guess, based on limited experiences. Perhaps all INFjs I know are central-European-ishly stubborn and thus untypical.)

That explains my INFj friend's unbudging "No"s. They usually turned out to be well-reasoned, when she'd TELL ME what the reasoning was.

[schrödinger's cat]

How I overcame that anxiety? Ayyy, I wish I had. What helped, in brief:

Doing something I loved, and finding I'm good at it. Then doing a lot of that.
Getting older, because you have more options. Particularly when it comes to being with people who make you feel at ease and avoiding people who treat you badly.
David Burns, "Feeling Good", particularly that technique where you write down your "negative" automatic thoughts and then counter them with sensible, realistic thoughts.
Being realistic about what I expect of myself. It's okay to be "average" or "below average" in some areas of life.
Freewriting about stuff that scares me, particularly freewriting sessions where you ask yourself a question and then just write, write, write. Sometimes the answers you get are amazing. Also, it's a good way of shutting up the inner critic.
Billy Conolly.
Finding out what to do with my hair, and what kind of clothes to wear, so I can look good and feel good in my own skin.
Also, exercise, a good diet, enough liquids, enough sleep, and someone to really talk to at least once each day.

[Sponyonye]

I was curious if anxiety-ridden ENFPs would have similiar methods for dealing with it. It appears I was right.

Oh, yes, the freewriting technique is something I use to an amazing degree of success. I once figured out the reason I didn't talk to people from freewriting: If a relationship is unlikely to form, I am too scared to speak to them. That's why when I message people wanting to get to know them I put a reason why, to 'convince' them to talk to me. Like, 'Hey, we both play violin. Surely we can exchange tips.' When I can't do this, I am uncomfortable. It's such a strange need, and worse, it seems to never actually make a relationship form.

[machintruc]

I know you EII's are usually very private, so just tell us how it feels to be EII.

[Lobo]

I know you EII's are usually very private, so just tell us how it feels to be EII.

I don't know how to answer that question. Everyone experiences life in their own way, and it comes down to specific situations. Also, I have a more religious view of people/life, which somehow makes the question the more difficult to answer. Add to that how the only life I've lived is my own, it would be hard to compare to other people.

[Minde]

I don't know how to answer that question. Everyone experiences life in their own way, and it comes down to specific situations. Also, I have a more religious view of people/life, which somehow makes the question the more difficult to answer. Add to that how the only life I've lived is my own, it would be hard to compare to other people.

Yeah, pretty much.

[redbaron]

Look at these private EIIs refusing to answer the question.

[Lobo]

Look at these private EIIs refusing to answer the question.

hehe, but it's true though. How could I go about answering that? The question isn't really specific, unless he is wanting to know why EII's are private... Maybe I would find that hard to answer as well since it's the natural thing for me to do. And I know that I'm no more private than the ISTps I know, maybe he should ask them first .

[ann2430]

I know you EII's are usually very private, so just tell us how it feels to be EII.

That's kind of a vague question, and definitely hard to answer since I don't know what it's like to be any other type. However, I guess I've always felt sort of different from most people. I am also a firm believer in God and Jesus, so I don't know how much of my differences are due to my beliefs rather than my personality type. I do feel that being an EII is hard at times, and I don't always feel like my strengths are especially valued by most of the world. That being said, I wouldn't want to trade places with anyone else because I know God made me this way and I have a lot of unique things to offer. I feel that I am a pretty spiritual person and my life can be very emotional at times. I think that I feel things more deeply than some people, although it's hard to say since i don't know exactly how anyone else feels. I am definitely a private person, although I sometimes find it easier to share things in writing. I sometimes feel torn between wanting to share my whole heart with others and wanting to hide my thoughts and feelings. I don't know if anyone else can relate to that. I definitely do not trust people easily and it takes me awhile to really open up to someone, although maybe that has less to do with being an EII and more to do with past experiences. In my mind, life is full of almost endless possibilities and dreams. This can make life exciting but it can also make it challenging.

[ann2430]

[QUOTE=Sereno;431898]hehe, but it's true though. How could I go about answering that? The question isn't really specific, unless he is wanting to know why EII's are private... Maybe I would find that hard to answer as well since it's the natural thing for me to do. And I know that I'm no more private than the ISTps I know, maybe he should ask them first .[/QUOT

ISTps are private people, especially with their emotions, but I feel that I am a more private person than the ISTps I have known. ISTps will more readily share things about their lives, in my experience.

[Lobo]

That's kind of a vague question, and definitely hard to answer since I don't know what it's like to be any other type. However, I guess I've always felt sort of different from most people. I am also a firm believer in God and Jesus, so I don't know how much of my differences are due to my beliefs rather than my personality type. I do feel that being an EII is hard at times, and I don't always feel like my strengths are especially valued by most of the world. That being said, I wouldn't want to trade places with anyone else because I know God made me this way and I have a lot of unique things to offer. I feel that I am a pretty spiritual person and my life can be very emotional at times. I think that I feel things more deeply than some people, although it's hard to say since i don't know exactly how anyone else feels. I am definitely a private person, although I sometimes find it easier to share things in writing. I sometimes feel torn between wanting to share my whole heart with others and wanting to hide my thoughts and feelings. I don't know if anyone else can relate to that. I definitely do not trust people easily and it takes me awhile to really open up to someone, although maybe that has less to do with being an EII and more to do with past experiences. In my mind, life is full of almost endless possibilities and dreams. This can make life exciting but it can also make it challenging.

Amen sista... One thing I would add is that people see me as being negative sometimes, when I'm actually trying to look for the real positive aspects of something and not the illusionary. The actual sources of "good."

ISTps are private people, especially with their emotions, but I feel that I am a more private person than the ISTps I have known. ISTps will more readily share things about their lives, in my experience.

It depends on the level of closeness. However, there's this "it's none of your business" type of reaction sometimes even when you get close.

[The Greeter]

hehe, but it's true though. How could I go about answering that? The question isn't really specific, unless he is wanting to know why EII's are private...

I would say natural thing to do and also to avoid getting hurt. I was a little more open as a child and easily trusted people. But when you find out they were just using or manipulating you, using secrets you told them as blackmail, making fun of them behind your back, you somewhat withdraw further in. Past experiences is definitely a factor for me.
It takes me awhile to open up to people and when I share my deepest secrets, internally I can feel myself becoming emotional. I do this very rarely with my family or even the closest of my friends, so to me it is a very big deal when I do so.

[mikemex]

However, there's this "it's none of your business" type of reaction sometimes even when you get close.

Not for long. In the presence of an IEE the SLI will eventually spill the beans. Everyone sings, you know!

[ann2430]

Not for long. In the presence of an IEE the SLI will eventually spill the beans. Everyone sings, you know!

This is true, and even in the presence of an INFJ sometimes. I have an ISTp friend and she seems to open up to me pretty well. It seems easier for her to open up to me than it is for me to open up to her, which is why I said that INFjs are more private people. But I guess I can't really generalize my experiences to all ISTps and INFjs.

[ann2430]

[quote]

Amen sista... One thing I would add is that people see me as being negative sometimes, when I'm actually trying to look for the real positive aspects of something and not the illusionary. The actual sources of "good."

Hmmm, yeah I'm not totally sure I understand your statements, but I also look for the true reality and not the illusionary. I am always searching for the truth even when it may seem inconvenient to realize the truth.

[Ritella]

argh. since all of the infj's are too private to actually respond to this question, i'll just have to post my rendition of "INFJ Uncovered."

INFJs like to think of themselves as saints. And most people believe this. But really, beneath their quiet demeanor lies your average person- complete with an "evil" side, like the rest of humanity. INFJs often think bad things and would like to do bad deeds, but they just.....can't. Yes, that's right. INFJs aren't really holier than any other type; they just never really do anything wrong because they simply can't _do anything_. Their Se POLR makes it impossible for them to assert themselves. Now, does this make them saints? Well, if someone were about to commit murder but couldn't because his gun wasn't loaded, has he still committed a crime? Something to think about...
Not only are INFJs "false saints," they're hypocritical ones at best. What makes INFJs so hypocritical? Consider that the INFJ basically lives off of other people's emotions and life experiences. This gives them the great advantage of being able to experience things vicariously through another person, while not having to assume the moral responsibility that comes with the transgression. Want to commit a crime? Just befriend an ex-convict! INFJs get the thrill of the experience, while still maintaining their "holier than thou" image. And as an added bonus, they're regarded as brave, compassionate, selfless, and charitable for "helping" out these other people.
The truth is, that all INFJs secretly toy with the idea of being evil. Their Ne creative and Fi leading gives them substantial incentive to consistently test and blur the line between good and evil. Another thing people never realize, is that INFJs ability to read people's strengths also makes them very able to realize people's hidden weaknesses and insecurities. But, as was already mentioned, they lack the ability to use this to their advantage. Hey, that's what other people are for, though, right?
In fairness, most of the "empathy" that INFJs feel for other people is much to the INFJs detriment. Got a friend with psychiatric issues? Don't let him or her interact with an INFJ! The INFJ has such a problem drawing boundaries between himself and other people, that chances are he'll easily develop the person's neuroses. In fact, this occurs so often, that sometimes it leaves people wondering if the INFJ isn't really just trying to draw more attention to himself. "Ambulance chaser" anyone?
The problem with INFJs is that rather than express their emotions like normal people, they don't think they have a _right_ to (8th function Fe). So they intellectualize it, internalize it, go nuts, and eventually displace it. And onto what would they displace their repressed emotions? Well, their HA, of course. In an effort to throw their Si out of whack, the INFJ will secretly binge eat, purge, overdose on drugs, pull all nighters, over-exercise, use sex as a weapon, and other interesting forms of bodily harm. (Nothing too grotesque though. Remember, these people have Se PoLR?)
Another fun thing about Si HA is that when INFJs get a headache, they really have bacterial meningitis. The flu is the bubonic plague. Lack of sleep is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. And so on and so forth.
INFJs can also be so touchy and hypersensitive that they'll unknowingly create an atmosphere in which people feel uncomfortable expressing themselves. But, hey, you can't blame the INFJ. This wasn't their intent. And don't you know, INFJs only consider things "blame-worthy" if the intention was bad? This belief- that people should only be judged by the moral value of their intentions- is also an excellent way for the INFJ to justify, both to themselves and others, any bad effects of their actions. Is it a coincidence that INFJs define their moral code such that they can never do wrong? (Afterall, one thing INFJs _never_ have is bad intentions.)
One last thing you have to realize about INFJs is that, not only are they not saints, they're also not as insecure as they would cause you to believe. Sure, INFJs come across as having incredibly low self esteem. But you have to realize that this is in combination with the fact that INFJs are also extreme perfectionists. So, when an INFJ says things like "I'm not smart/good looking/etc" he is not actually complaining that he's neither smart, nor good looking. (In fact, INFJs often do hold themselves in high regard; they have to, otherwise they'd probably commit suicide.) What an INFJ is _really_ saying when he reveals insecurities is that he's upset about not being the smartest, best looking, etc. person in _the world_. Got that? Good.
INFJs are also great fans of general statements about "people." This allows them to talk without actually confessing anything; a great way to protect their highly valued privacy. In fact, notice the way in which I wrote this post: You can't say I shared anything about me specifically, now can you?

[UDP]

(Very) Well done.

And don't you know, INFJs only consider things "blame-worthy" if the intention was bad? An excellent way to justify any ill affects to themselves and others, mind you.

"Well, he's trying to do the right thing"
"Well, he's a good person"
"Well, he didn't really mean that"

esp when combined with the "shame on you for criticizing someone with good intentions", if the Fi bond is strong between the INFj and the person you are commenting on. You want to see a strong reaction from an EII? Use a (negative) comment involving Te and Se - dual seeking and polr - against someone they have a very strong (positive) Fi opinion of. My, my, my.


Fittingly enough, though. Their dual may need constant ethical modifications and apologies.

[redbaron]

that INFj uncovered description sounds almost as much like an enneagram 9 as an EII. pretty funny tho.

[hellothere]

One last thing you have to realize about INFJs is that, not only are they not saints, they're also not as insecure as they would cause you to believe. Sure, INFJs come across as having incredibly low self esteem. But you have to realize that this in combination with the fact that INFJs are also extreme perfectionists. So, when an INFJ says things like "I'm not smart/good looking/etc" he is not actually complaining that he's neither smart, nor good looking. (In fact, INFJs often do hold themselves in high regard; they have to, otherwise they'd probably commit suicide.) What an INFJ is _really_ saying when he reveals insecurities is that he's upset about not being the smartest, best looking, etc. person in _the world_. Got that? Good.

I really relate to this. When I talk about these things to my friends, they think either I'm being overly modest or that I'm think too low of myself. But I know its not that because I don't really have any self esteem issues, its just that I know that I'm not as good as some people at certain things.

INFJs are also great fans of general statements about "people." This allows them to talk without actually confessing anything; a great way to protect their highly valued privacy. In fact, notice the way in which I wrote this post: You can't say I shared anything about me specifically, now can you?

that's exactly what I do when someone asks me something personal that I'm not comfortable discussing or revealing, but I still want to kind of give them an answer so they don't think I'm hiding something.

[Lobo]

I'm going to treat this as if you were being serious:

INFJs like to think of themselves as saints. And most people believe this. But really, beneath their quiet demeanor lies your average person- complete with an "evil" side, like the rest of humanity. INFJs often think bad things and would like to do bad deeds, but they just.....can't. Yes, that's right. INFJs aren't really holier than any other type; they just never really do anything wrong because they simply can't _do anything_. Their Se POLR makes it impossible for them to assert themselves.

You're implying here that INFjs would really like to do bad things, but it's just the Se that gets in their way of not doing it? I don't know about you, but I never get thoughts in my head of hurting anyone or doing any illegal activities unless I'm hurt by the person significantly. I do not get any satisfaction or thrill in doing things that I consider to be "evil." Obviously, every person is a human being, and everyone has their human element. Also, it's not like I personally want people to look at me as a saint, and I don't even consider myself to be one, they can really think whatever the hell they want!!

There are people out there who are saints, in that they actually try their best to do good in this world, and if it's an INFj, or whatever type, then so be it. But to attribute "sainthood" or simply being a good person not wishing harm to others as a Se defficiency is wrong to me. It doesn't register in my head how someone can lead a morally good life and have it attributed to lack of assertiveness... Is it easy to be a good person in this world? Hardly!! It takes a lot of confidence and courage in what you think is right and oppose so many hardships due to that, and so much bullshit that other people throw at you because they don't want you to succeed. Unless we're talking about little issues of sainthood, it definitely takes assertiveness to defend and keep going with your beliefs.

Not only are INFJs "false saints," they're hypocritical ones at best. What makes INFJs so hypocritical? Consider that the INFJ basically lives off of other people's emotions and life experiences. This gives them the great advantage of being able to experience things vicariously through another person, while not having to endure the moral responsibility that comes with the transgression. Want to commit a crime? Just befriend an ex-convict! INFJs get the thrill of the experience, while still maintaining their "holier than thou" image. And as an added bonus, they're regarded as brave, compassionate, selfless, and charitable for "helping" out these other people.
The truth is, that all INFJs secretly toy with the idea of being evil. Their Ne creative and Fi leading gives them substantial incentive to consistently test and blur the line between good and evil.

I have nothing to say about this, because I just don't get it. It sounds psychopathic to me. I've never toyed with the idea of being evil at all, unless it's something that will never happen in real life, like having superpowers and living in Gotham or something.

Another thing people never realize, is that INFJs ability to read people's strengths also makes them very able to realize people's hidden weaknesses and insecurities. But, as was already mentioned, they lack the ability to use this to their advantage. Hey, that's what other people are for, though, right?
In fairness, most of the "empathy" that INFJs feel for other people is much to the INFJs detriment. Got a friend with psychiatric issues? Don't let him or her interact with an INFJ! The INFJ has such a problem drawing boundaries between himself and other people, that chances are he'll easily develop the person's neuroses. In fact, this occurs so often, that sometimes it leaves people wondering if the INFJ isn't really just trying to draw more attention to himself. "Ambulance chaser" anyone?
The problem with INFJs is that rather than express their emotions like normal people, they don't think they have a _right_ to (8th function Fe). So they intellectualize it, internalize it, go nuts, and eventually displace it. And onto what would they displace their repressed emotions? Well, their HA, of course. In an effort to throw their Si out of whack, the INFJ will secretly binge eat, purge, overdose on drugs, pull all nighters, over-exercise, use sex as a weapon, and other interesting forms of bodily harm. (Nothing too grotesque though. Remember, these people have Se PoLR?)

What's bolded I do see a possibility. But the rest is just crazy Ritella, at least for me... If anything I surpress negative emotions, never the positive ones, and it's because I don't like influencing other people's emotions in a bad way. I don't like projecting negative or draining emotions, ever. But it seems inevitable at times.

Another fun thing about Si HA is that when INFJs get a headache, they really have bacterial meningitis. The flu is the bubonic plague. Lack of sleep is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. And so on and so forth.

??? If you're talking about being moody when sick, then that is true in my case.

INFJs can also be so touchy and hypersensitive that they'll unknowingly create an atmosphere in which people feel uncomfortable expressing themselves. But, hey, you can't blame the INFJ. This wasn't their intent. And don't you know, INFJs only consider things "blame-worthy" if the intention was bad? This belief- that people should only be judged by the moral value of their intentions- is also an excellent way for the INFJ to justify, both to themselves and others, any bad effects of their actions. Is it a coincidence that INFJs define their moral code such that they can never do wrong? (Afterall, one thing INFJs _never_ have is bad intentions.)

The bolded part I agree, but everything that follows it I disagree entirely. People should answer for the things they do, but in a way that corresponds with the intentions that they had in doing them. And I don't define moral codes such that I can never be wrong... I appreciate it when people tell me the things that I do wrong, and I have regretted things I've done where I have been wrong, and I am open to this type of questioning.

One last thing you have to realize about INFJs is that, not only are they not saints, they're also not as insecure as they would cause you to believe. Sure, INFJs come across as having incredibly low self esteem. But you have to realize that this in combination with the fact that INFJs are also extreme perfectionists. So, when an INFJ says things like "I'm not smart/good looking/etc" he is not actually complaining that he's neither smart, nor good looking. (In fact, INFJs often do hold themselves in high regard; they have to, otherwise they'd probably commit suicide.) What an INFJ is _really_ saying when he reveals insecurities is that he's upset about not being the smartest, best looking, etc. person in _the world_. Got that? Good.

Ritella, please delete the part in bold. I think you will agree that you went too far and this type of thing is no joke... I don't know what to say about this passage, it's full of confusion. I can only say that I have had a mixture of high self esteem and low self esteem depending on what is happening to me at a given moment.

INFJs are also great fans of general statements about "people." This allows them to talk without actually confessing anything; a great way to protect their highly valued privacy. In fact, notice the way in which I wrote this post: You can't say I shared anything about me specifically, now can you?

Why do I have to talk about what is private to me? I don't feel in anyway forced here to say things that I don't want to say. You're making it sound like being private is a bad thing, and when I decided not to respond it wasn't because I would be "confessing" anything. I don't feel pressured in the least to have to say anything about myself, and why would I? It makes no sense. This is a public forum, meaning anyone can read what I write here, and that only makes me comfortable to talk about myself only to a certain level. And, that's something that is going to stay.

(Very) Well done.



"Well, he's trying to do the right thing"
"Well, he's a good person"
"Well, he didn't really mean that"

esp when combined with the "shame on you for criticizing someone with good intentions", if the Fi bond is strong between the INFj and the person you are commenting on. You want to see a strong reaction from an EII? Use a (negative) comment involving Te and Se - dual seeking and polr - against someone they have a very strong (positive) Fi opinion of. My, my, my.


Fittingly enough, though. Their dual may need constant ethical modifications and apologies.

Ok, why and how is it "well done"?