.
.
Well, if you see it as "some sort of rules that I'm supposed to follow," then for you, social etiquette is Ti. Me, I see social etiquette as a general principle of being decent to people that basically just makes everyone's day happier, less awkward, and generally easier. That's more like Fe. Some people might see social etiquette as accurately and honestly representing their position on another person to them; Fi. For some people, social etiquette is just a way to deal with people in the real world and get things done: Te.
Social etiquette is an abstract idea; it's not written down anywhere, and it's completely open to interpretation. It can't be completely "boxed in" unless we have an all-encompassing definition of it, and that's simply not possible, so pick whichever one fits you. Socionics is about PERCEIVING the world, not reducing it to one tangible plaything-truth like you are all doing in this ridiculous thread.
Happy?
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
either way it's a judgment for sure.Originally Posted by Gilly
this type of argument could be made for any IM about anything....hence lending credence to the idea that socionics is sort of like chinese astrology. LOL
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
Diana, I hope you aren't trying to pin etiquette on Fe with this, because if I accurately represented my emotional state in every social setting, I would be a fucking outcast.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
I agree that etiquette seems more composed of both forms of ethics. I might lean in a few cases to one side or the other -- like I've noted morevaluers who do things based on roles (there are more "shoulds" and tendency to hold oneself to role "expectations"). Personally, I think
is more likely to just behave because they "feel" or want to rather than they're holding themselves to a particular role. ie: I dislike taking sides in arguments, especially when someone expects that because I'm their friend I should agree with their pov.
Social obligation (though not necessarily defined in terms of etiquette) does seem more
socio: INFp - IEI
ennea: 4w5 sp/sx
**********
Absolutely the opposite. Socionics is GOOD because of the fact that we can see things in so many different lights. This is an ACCURATE connection of an abstract aspect of reality with something that happens in reality; the fact that we can conceptualize things so easily and accurately means that Socionics is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.either way it's a judgment for sure.
this type of argument could be made for any IM about anything....hence lending credence to the idea that socionics is sort of like chinese astrology. LOL
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
.
i'm not sure gill. people might adhere to social etiquette for reasons which are related to their type and its values, but etiquette itself seems ethical and people oriented, not logical and thing oriented despite the fact that etiquette follows a certain internal logic of its own.Absolutely the opposite. Socionics is GOOD because of the fact that we can see things in so many different lights. This is an ACCURATE connection of an abstract aspect of reality with something that happens in reality; the fact that we can conceptualize things so easily and accurately means that Socionics is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.either way it's a judgment for sure.
this type of argument could be made for any IM about anything....hence lending credence to the idea that socionics is sort of like chinese astrology. LOL
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
He's not being rude or mean. He's being indifferent, for the most part. How is that ungracious, especially considering we let them move in here and stay with us for free?
i actually understand everything you've said. the only thing i disagree with is that you don't see etiquette as being connected to socionics or an IM.Sigh. What's the deal? Is it really that hard to read what I write and understand it? I've already said that etiquette isn't tied to any of them in my opinion, any more than you can tie stopping at a stop sign to Fi or Fe or Ti or etc.
Read what Danielle wrote - which I found very good as far as explaining emotional expressiveness for Fi.
No, I don't think Fe is being fake - but for me to act in the same manner as a Fe person does WOULD be fake. For me: I'm happy- I smile. I'm really happy- I smile really big. I'm super duper extremely happy - I smile enormously and there's a spring to my step and I'm more chipper and bouncier. The peak of my expressiveness is much much lower than the peak of expressiveness for many Fe types. It's all more subtle -- and I'm more likely to notice more subtle changes in someone else as well. When someone reacts to me in a very strong manner - either good or bad, and I don't see any justification for that -- I get really uncomfortable and want them to back off. Especially if they expect a similar reaction from me in turn.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
ahhhh the true issue emerges at last. and you don't think they pick up on that? i'm quite sure they don't feel completely welcome.He's not being rude or mean. He's being indifferent, for the most part. How is that ungracious, especially considering we let them move in here and stay with us for free?
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
Why is someone a git for not being completely comfortable with social expectations?
Etiquette is about social expectations. Social expectations seem to mainly deal with extroverted functions, most commonly Fe. People who expect/lead with Fe are going to be offended by those who do not, because theyonly know how to take cues from Fe, especially the ones who expect it rather than lead with it. Those who lead with it will be upset that they are not being effective, which will lead to offense because of embarrassment.
I choose not to respond to most social expectations. I am more likely to act however I feel like acting towards the person in question, depending on the relationship to them. I say hi to almost everyone, and if I don't feel like I'll smile. I don't mind acknowledging people unless they are TRYING to get me too. Then I'll purposely ignore them until they freak out, in which case I'll chuckle and then say hai. This happens with Fe leading girls a lot.
The Fe people vs. Fi people is so obvious in this thread, and no one is even noticing or applying it to their posts.
And a few Fe people are playing Fe games, which makes them look a fool most of the time.
SEE Unknown Subtype
6w7 sx/so
[21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
[21:29] hitta: and not dying
.
Should it matter? Things were fine at first, I didn't mind waiting a bit for them to get caught up before charging rent. (Then some shit happened which I won't get into, but it basically boils down to disrespect for our personal property. I forgave her, and things would be totally fine if they were pitching in.) But Peter would be acting exactly the same if that hadn't happened, and even if they were paying to live here. The only way to change that would be to spend time around him and get to know him.
ahhhh the true issue emerges at last. and you don't think they pick up on that? i'm quite sure they don't feel completely welcome.He's not being rude or mean. He's being indifferent, for the most part. How is that ungracious, especially considering we let them move in here and stay with us for free?
WHY WOULD THEY NOT FEEL WELCOME IF THEY WERE INVITED
It's an issue of Fe damnit. Needing constant reassurence. Some. People. Hate. Having. To. Do. That.
asigfkalwertq324908t3gnjn the way you respond to shit pisses me offfffffffffff...its like patrick >
SEE Unknown Subtype
6w7 sx/so
[21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
[21:29] hitta: and not dying
.
hey babe. i'm not patrick. getta hold of yourself.
never said that issue wasn't Fe anyway.
point is, they're not completely welcome are they?
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
Yeah, it is indeed an issue of valuing Fe vs. not valuing Fe. Even if there's other stuff involved, the issue was that she thinks that being warm and making small talk is something people should do automatically, he doesn't.
i dunno joy. this situation sounds stressful and tense. why would anybody feel compelled to do positive Fe? they prolly need to move out don't they?
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
If I didn't want them here, I would tell them to leave. And I don't mind helping them out for a while since they're having financial (and other) difficulties right now, and it's really important to me that my brother finishes school. And I like hanging out with them, which I don't do often (primarily because we keep different hours, and I'm not good at keeping up with initiating stuff like that), but regardless... yeah, I want them here. That doesn't mean that I'm going to be totally thrilled with everything they do though.
.
nah, not at this point (I really do feel good about helping them, and I don't think it's reached the point of enabling right now because they're doing stuff to better their situation)... but we'll be moving in late winter/early spring, so they'll need to theni dunno joy. this situation sounds stressful and tense. why would anybody feel compelled to do positive Fe? they prolly need to move out don't they?
im very aware of you not being my fiance, what i said is that your reponses sound like his.
if they don't feel welcome it is their own fault. the way i see it:
they were invited to move in because they needed help. that should be enough in itself for them to feel welcome. someone is willing to put them up for free and help them out.
in the meantime, they may or not have felt welcome due to a Fe/Fi divide in the house.
they obviously did something wrong, in which case they probably became even more paranoid that they were not liked due to this Fe/Fi divide.
therefore they brought their own discomfort upon themselves. in the beginning, before the wrong-doing, it wasn't ANYONE'S fault. no one was doing anything except being they way they were comfortable being, and it clashed.
SEE Unknown Subtype
6w7 sx/so
[21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
[21:29] hitta: and not dying
.
Good. I never ever thought Fe types are fake when they are just being happy and smiling (they only are when it's done to "put you in the right mood" to place a request). It's just that sometimes I can't partake in the atmosphere because: I can't do it, I'm not good at it, and I don't even like that much to receive it, and also (many Fe types can't understand this) faking a good mood doesn't put me in a good mood. Many (most) of the time I'm in a good mood, but I have a stone face. There is no reason for this, it's just the way I am.To me, I really need that
One other thing: I usually greet everyone very heartily and with a huge smile... I don't understand why some people have been saying here that being effusive seems "fake" to
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
This sums up so many type conflict issues. And the opposite is what sums up duality and other affirmative relations. No one doing anything except being the way they were comfortable being, and it worked.
In my perfect world, no one would ever be made to feel bad for being themselves, and people would have somewhere they could be themselves without all these problems.
EII
4w5, sp/sx
you don't have to make others feel bad just because you don't share their values. the story of life.
and, even if it is an Fe/Fi clash, totally socionics, it doesn't mean that an Fe person expects someone to cheer up everyone else because they expect it. An Fe/Ti person needs Fe to evaluate a situation. So if one day someone's laughing, and the next they are like soundless, I'll be like.. "ok whats up. Are we not cool?" I don't want to cause mroe damage to that person than I presumably already have. Truth is, I don't know. We don't look to Te (the fact that i am in your house) to show me how you are feeling. Besides feelings can change faster than arrangements or decisions can be made to change physical circumstances.
This sums up so many type conflict issues. And the opposite is what sums up duality and other affirmative relations. No one doing anything except being the way they were comfortable being, and it worked.
In my perfect world, no one would ever be made to feel bad for being themselves, and people would have somewhere they could be themselves without all these problems.
:]
SEE Unknown Subtype
6w7 sx/so
[21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
[21:29] hitta: and not dying
.
I don't like this thread for some reason.
-1.
Fe-valuing types do not need constant reassurance. Your boyfriend is depressed. Stop equating the two.ahhhh the true issue emerges at last. and you don't think they pick up on that? i'm quite sure they don't feel completely welcome.He's not being rude or mean. He's being indifferent, for the most part. How is that ungracious, especially considering we let them move in here and stay with us for free?
WHY WOULD THEY NOT FEEL WELCOME IF THEY WERE INVITED
It's an issue of Fe damnit. Needing constant reassurence. Some. People. Hate. Having. To. Do. That.
asigfkalwertq324908t3gnjn the way you respond to shit pisses me offfffffffffff...its like patrick >
It's ungracious because people expect to be treated like people; SORRY if that's too much for you to comprehend. Your lack of emotional intelligence does not equate to an implicit lack of shared responsibility with the rest of the world. It shouldn't be too much effort for your precious to distract from his INCREDIBLY busy schedule.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Did you not just read my last post? Falsely portraying your own emotional state is NOT the natural way for an Fe type to behave. Fe "genuineness" is not exaggerating for effect; it's accurately representing your Fe state, no matter what the Fi consequences are.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
(asking just to brainstorm) do you think a Fe (merry) type then would be more likely to say, engage in very friendly conversation without knowing how it would impact the Fi? Or do you think the two are essentialy paired?Did you not just read my last post? Falsely portraying your own emotional state is NOT the natural way for an Fe type to behave. Fe "genuineness" is not exaggerating for effect; it's accurately representing your Fe state, no matter what the Fi consequences are.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I hope that's true of everyone.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Yes. I know an ILE girl who is just naturally really flirty because she's a pretty happy person in general, but she forgets that when she talks to guys, being flirty leads them on and makes them think she is interested in them. Perfect exampl.(asking just to brainstorm) do you think a Fe (merry) type then would be more likely to say, engage in very friendly conversation without knowing how it would impact the Fi? Or do you think the two are essentialy paired?Did you not just read my last post? Falsely portraying your own emotional state is NOT the natural way for an Fe type to behave. Fe "genuineness" is not exaggerating for effect; it's accurately representing your Fe state, no matter what the Fi consequences are.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
You're right, probably it's better something like...if I'm in a good mood and don't feel like disturbing my peaceful emotional state...strong even positive emotions can be detrimental...or is it the same?I hope that's true of everyone.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
That sounds like valuing Fe and Si.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Yes in a sense I can see what you mean, but wouldn't a Si seeking type want the emotions to be more peaceful, whereas I feel like I am generally peaceful and happy inside when I'm just myself and sometimes emotions can be "disturbances"
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Of course emotions can be disturbances, if they violate Si.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
.
Please, tell us. What should one do to treat others like people?
Me? What am I responsible for?Your lack of emotional intelligence does not equate to an implicit lack of shared responsibility with the rest of the world.
His schedule is none of your business.It shouldn't be too much effort for your precious to distract from his INCREDIBLY busy schedule.
What would your sense of valuedPlease, tell us. What should one do to treat others like people?
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
I could write a long explanation of what it means to me to treat someone like a person. Nowhere in it would it mentioned cheerfully greeting roommates with small talk whenever they walk past.
There’s been a lot of talk about Fe’s “effusiveness” or Fi’s comparatively muted “emotional expression” when I think we are somewhat circumventing the root cause of any Fe/Fi conflict. What “Fe state” refers to is a dynamic emotional current – the flowing and shifting emotional atmosphere that is colored by the occasion, your relation in respect to the other people/people, the environment, the purpose of the meeting, etc. (Alpha Fe tends to be more influenced by Si, Beta Fe by Ni, obviously.) A Fe-type will naturally act in a way that is appropriate to these influencing factors.I'm curious about the manifestation of
As an
Is this a common perception? Does the chill always ultimately return again and again??
I'd appreciate thoughts and elucidations of
I really want to understand!
Now, of course, this will seem foreign to Fi-types. “Fi-state” refers to is a complex network of influence within the self – factors here are past experiences (recent or removed), personal motivations, personal goals, intellectual convictions, etc. Gamma Fi obviously tends to be influenced more by Se, and Delta Fi by Ne.
So what happens when a Fe-type acting on their external influencing factors and a Fi-type acting on their internal influencing factors are at odds with one another, is that each person’s behavior will seem inappropriate to the other. Not necessarily “overly effusive” or “cold” – but both will seem indifferent to each other’s motivations, which can come across as disconcerting on both ends.
Personally what I need in a discussion is not so much for the other person to be emotionally effusive or engage in elaborate shows of affection, etc. I just want them to be able to react to me from an appropriate angle. Fi-types expect their collocutor to react to them from an appropriate angle as well, but it is not the angle I habitually place myself when chatting with someone - that sort of thing I reserve for my own private reveries or my journal.
Reply With Quote
